***OMT TOTTENHAM HOTSPUR vs Liverpool***

[Kandi1977]

Here was our available side today. It is the same as it was on Thursday, and virtually the same as it was last weekend too.

I keep hearing people like Jamie Carragher, and some here, going on about changing the style right now and being more 'pragmatic'...don't push the FBs high and sit in a mid to low block, attack on the counter.

Can anyone show me who we had available today that would've made that system work? Let alone in our squad?
Have people properly taken stock of the squad we're in the middle of building? With all it's 'future parts' and not much present tense immediacy? It's intent? How those players play? Pedro is not a great defender, so seeing him in a deeper sitting back four doesn't fill me with confidence. Anything inviting pressure onto these players right now is not a good fit for fatigue, let alone having to change the way we play after 18 months to try and snaffle a few points which such 'pragmatism' might still not help us achieve? WHERE are the reinforcements we can call upon to helpo us adjust to a more 'pragmatic' style of play? Does it really make sense -as the highest scorerrs in the league- to try and play a counter-attacking game when we're starting with Sonny and Deki?

Again, happy to have the discussion, but please note, this squad has been built for a style, and the manager has not been given reinforcements in key areas that he requested. BTW, Vicario would've save at least two of those goals today. We cannot go until even January 7th without getting a proper keeper in behind Vic...

​

Spurs​

• 20
  Fraser Forster
  
  
• 23
  Pedro Porro
• 
  
• 6
  Radu Dragusin
• 14
  Archie Gray
• 24
  Djed Spence
• 29
  Pape Sarr
• 8
  Yves Bissouma
• 21
  Dejan Kulusevski
• 10
  James Maddison
• 7
  Heung-Min Son
• 19
  Dominic Solanke

Substitutes​

• 40
  Brandon Austin
• 3
  Sergio Reguilon
• 13
  Iyenoma Udogie
• 15
  Lucas Bergvall (s 58')
• 16
  Timo Werner (s 82')
• 22
  Brennan Johnson (s 58')
• 42
  Will Lankshear
• 48
  Alfie Dorrington
• 64
  Callum Olusesi
  

It would be much better if just parked the bus to try and get a 0-0, but then lose 0-3, because we'd been pragmatic. It's the only way forward....
Going out there trying to win is just a ridiculous concept, and we need to stop that immediately!

 

[tommysvr]

It's about telling Porro that he's not a RWF and to sit. It's about telling Dragusin not to chase into midfield and leave huge holes in the defense behind you. It's definitely about telling them not to do both at the same time. We might still have lost, but it's more likely that we would lose by the odd goal instead of three goals. Doing that gives us a much better chance of getting a lucky draw or even a lucky win.

I agree with the overall point. I think Porro needs to be instructed to read the game better and hold his position more. He rushed out to press v Man Utd and it nearly ended with Mazaroui making it 3-3.

However, if Kulusevki gets the ball to Porro here it's very likely 3-2 and game on. Instead, it's 4-1 and just about all over. This is the risk vs reward of Ange and I'm confident it will fall our way more often than not.

What I'd really like to see is (in the second image) Dragusin wider on the right, with Bissouma creating a triangle with him and Gray. He can then at the very least delay this counter attack.





Our shape is a bit all over the place here though. Maddison on the left, Spence ahead of him, RW Kulusevki as an AM. Feels like a simple way to fix some of our immediate issues would be to focus on the shape more.

 

[Mr Gogolak]

Increasingly, I think the tactics are absolutely the problem. If they’re not, why have we getting such a poor average points return for a year now? And I have no doubt that the tactics lead to many of the injuries.

They're very demanding, there's no doubt about it but, quite frankly, the last 4 results have been okay, considering the list of injuries we've had. I haven't checked but I think we've done better than last season in a similar situation, injury-wise. So, that's already a positive! I honestly think he coped better with the situation this time around.

So, in an ideal world where players wouldn't tire and where you'd only play once a week, I'm not sure the very high line and the adventurous full-backs would be such a problem. Sure, we'd get comprehensively beaten every now and then but we could still be competitive. However, we don't have the squad to make up for 8 missing first team players and, more importantly, we never will.

You'd have to be a sports medicine specialist to know what's wrong with our current set-up but I'll give credit to Postecoglou where it's due: I think he's improved on a couple of points compared to last season and I don't think the Liverpool game really changes that.

 

[Muttley]

I agree with that and have no issue with that either, albeit I would like this manager to be given a fair shake. I must you though...in the middle of what?

Ah, just meant that concept that Ange is the immovable object and everything has to change around him, versus the other way round.

Ange will need to adapt to the environment itself eventually, but will always be measured by me on the full football manager's playbook including the chapters he has torn out of his copy.

Also, we can all sit there in pressers and say the words "that's for others to decide" every time he gets those difficult questions. That's an easy narrative as you know the journo doesn't get to delve deeper with a 2nd and 3rd question. Actually, we've never heard from Ange WHY our club should compromise so much to his belief system when the stats and the naked eye are telling so many intelligent football stakeholders something different.

It's not that we don't want him to be right. Even with every star aligning in his direction, would this system work? I don't see it working as no system works in PL football if you leave it long enough. The other managers are too smart. You have to be adaptive and keep changing.

 

[thfcsteff]

Ah, just meant that concept that Ange is the immovable object and everything has to change around him, versus the other way round.

Ange will need to adapt to the environment itself eventually, but will always be measured by me on the full football manager's playbook including the chapters he has torn out of his copy.

Also, we can all sit there in pressers and say the words "that's for others to decide" every time he gets those difficult questions. That's an easy narrative as you know the journo doesn't get to delve deeper with a 2nd and 3rd question. Actually, we've never heard from Ange WHY our club should compromise so much to his belief system when the stats and the naked eye are telling so many intelligent football stakeholders something different.

It's not that we don't want him to be right. Even with every star aligning in his direction, would this system work? I don't see it working as no system works in PL football if you leave it long enough. The other managers are too smart. You have to be adaptive and keep changing.

Slot was extremely close to joining us. He decided not to at the 11th hour. There is speculation as to why, I believe it is because of what we needed to build versus what our transfer strategy was/is.

Everyone knew what they were getting when they went for Ange. He made it very clear how he works, and Munn/Lange were onboard. The entire club trains this way. So I absolutely get the question, I just think that this is a collective responsibility and as such, should've been a potential factor when hiring...

I will say again that until today, we were 4th in the least goals conceded table and second top scorers. I don't think those are the stats you were referring to, but they were accurate yesterday morning!

Happy Holidays mate, always good discussions with you.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Slot was extremely close to joining us. He decided not to at the 11th hour. There is speculation as to why, I believe it is because of what we needed to build versus what our transfer strategy was/is.

Everyone knew what they were getting when they went for Ange. He made it very clear how he works, and Munn/Lange were onboard. The entire club trains this way. So I absolutely get the question, I just think that this is a collective responsibility and as such, should've been a potential factor when hiring...

I will say again that until today, we were 4th in the least goals conceded table and second top scorers. I don't think those are the stats you were referring to, but they were accurate yesterday morning!

Happy Holidays mate, always good discussions with you.

Slot wanted to join us
We refused the release fee
He signed a new contract a low release fee
That’s how I’ve been told it happened by the guys who told me we wanted him him before it was in the press

 

[thfcsteff]

Slot wanted to join us
We refused the release fee
He signed a new contract a low release fee
That’s how I’ve been told it happened by the guys who told me we wanted him him before it was in the press

Gotcha.
I remember hearing he wanted to join us that April, and had fully prepared myself for it to happen (was doing some quick revision of his work to have some idea).
When he didn't arrive I was disappointed.
I heard something different with regards to why he didn't, but your scenario/sources potential accuracy would not surprise me in the least.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Gotcha.
I remember hearing he wanted to join us that April, and had fully prepared myself for it to happen (was doing some quick revision of his work to have some idea).
When he didn't arrive I was disappointed.
I heard something different with regards to why he didn't, but your scenario/sources potential accuracy would not surprise me in the least.

£15M was the figure I heard and we thought it was £3m

 

[Baleforce]

Those saying be pragmatic, sit in, be compact, are you really confident we could scrape a victory playing like that with Salah against a CB who's 18 and not a CB?
Salah is nearly as old as our two cbs combined, which makes carra calling dragu experienced a joke.

It’s not just one game, had we been more pragmatic all season we likely wouldn’t have so many injuries in the first place.

Had we sat in in this game I think a better result than a three goal defeat was possible though yes.

 

[Muttley]

Slot was extremely close to joining us. He decided not to at the 11th hour. There is speculation as to why, I believe it is because of what we needed to build versus what our transfer strategy was/is.

Everyone knew what they were getting when they went for Ange. He made it very clear how he works, and Munn/Lange were onboard. The entire club trains this way. So I absolutely get the question, I just think that this is a collective responsibility and as such, should've been a potential factor when hiring...

I will say again that until today, we were 4th in the least goals conceded table and second top scorers. I don't think those are the stats you were referring to, but they were accurate yesterday morning!

Happy Holidays mate, always good discussions with you.

I'm on the fence why Slot didn't join Spurs. I reckon if you look at the biggest clubs in Europe, those prime jobs come along every single season on rotation. Slot knew his stock was high, and he knew he would be primed for one of them. Nobody would have been surprised to see him in the role that Kompany got or a replacement for Xavi. Perhaps he'd even had a heads up to sit tight and wait for Klopp to roll off.

Who knows, but I never felt he was showing the signs that he was joining us. Perhaps you have an inside track though.

You mention Lange who has also worn the tracksuit, and I live in hope that Munn and him can get across some points to Ange. Perhaps no different than how long it look last season to sort our the corner defensive setup. No goal line minder for our keeper, wrong balance of blockers vs markers and relegation stats. It really took until April / May for our coaches to make those positive changes. We talk about open play headers now, but we don't talk about corners because we eventually fixed the problem. I think we will see more of this with the well documented other issues that are contributing to the goals conceded column.

That's also the problem with the 4th least conceded goals argument. The XGA table has us in 6th place. Liverpool are bottom. Like a lot of these stats, they are now starting to converge Actual vs Expected. Both parameters will change as players return, but I'm not confident we'll concede less than 50 goals this season. If we do then it will be in the 45-50 range. It is progress, but is just not good enough in this league.

But absolutely, enjoy the holidays mate. It's always fun chatting Spurs with you.

 

[glorygloryeze]

Well, this kind of scoreline was bound to happen eventually, wasn't it....We have to just be happy they settled for 6 as they could have had 10

 

[Bishop]

It’s part of the pain of the rebuild

All I hear is he should change things
He had at his disposal
Lankshear with 2 starts in Europe
Reggie who he thinks can’t play ball
Bergvall with 2 league start
Werner who everyone thinks is brick and has been ill
Udogie who is nursing an injury
Johnson who I also believe is managing an injury
And the rest.. are kids
Genuine kids
I had a ante day I’d back him if he paid the kids and rested some players
Could you imagine the fans
Highest ticket prices in the galaxy to see Callum Olusesi and Alfie Dorrington

The squad available isn't a viable excuse. He chose to have the squad he has. He decided to re-sign Werner for this summer. He decided he was happy going in to the season with 3 CBs and a converted LB as his CB options. He was the one happy with the midfield options as they were. You can't now cry about those being the players we have available, he decided on the composition of the squad for this season. That's on him.

Also the injuries are bad but it wasn't great before this particular either. I remember you telling me we had to wait for 10 games to evaluate well it's been 17 games now and the pattern was clear from the start of the season. It was clear from last season. We are setup to defend well, it's a fact. It doesn't matter whether we have Romero and VDV available. The same brick happens every game.

We need to stop with the excuses and be like Ange and own it. He's not even making the injuries excuse because he knows this is football and he knows he picked the squad.

 

[Jurgen the German]

Did you see my post about this earlier? I invite you to offer a more pragmatic solution with appropriate players in our current situation? Do you think with more pragmatism today (as is the phrase) we'd have avoided defeat today? Do you think sitting in a mid to low block would've seen us prevail? Or do you think tired players who have been coached in a system would perhaps find an adjustment to 18 months of work plus receiving wave after wave of opposition attacks ultimately wearing? I cannot say it would be like that because we have not seen it, but in the world of assumptions, it's one I'm prepared to make.

I personally think your 'Aussie Ted Lasso' comment is disrespectful, but I presume you wouldn't say it unless you genuinely believed it. In which case, can you explain how he is like Ted Lasso? Genuinely?
I actually don't think people listen to his entire press conferences, instead choosing to pick what fits their fixed points of view. Press included.

I’m not saying I wanted us to play a low block for 90 minutes, but I’d like us to NOT go gung ho for 90 mins too. Surely there’s a balance to be had Steff? There are times to be gung ho and there are times to be conservative, against one of the best attacks in the league was one of those times. Maybe get the wingers to help the full backs? Maybe don’t play out from the back as much? Maybe don’t send Spence bombing forward at 2-1 when it’s minutes from half time?

Yes his comments recently have been rather amateurish, like he’s never managed at a high level before. Saying “I just want to entertain” after we concede 3, 4 and 6 goals really isn’t good enough. I want him to say we’re conceding too many goals and it’s my job to fix it. That we gift too many opportunities to teams and we can’t be so open. Arry had us playing free-flowing attacking football but we weren’t reckless at the other end of the pitch. Poch had us scoring goals but solid at the other end. We’ve never been consistently solid under Ange and we never will be.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

The squad available isn't a viable excuse. He chose to have the squad he has. He decided to re-sign Werner for this summer. He decided he was happy going in to the season with 3 CBs and a converted LB as his CB options. He was the one happy with the midfield options as they were. You can't now cry about those being the players we have available, he decided on the composition of the squad for this season. That's on him.

Also the injuries are bad but it wasn't great before this particular either. I remember you telling me we had to wait for 10 games to evaluate well it's been 17 games now and the pattern was clear from the start of the season. It was clear from last season. We are setup to defend well, it's a fact. It doesn't matter whether we have Romero and VDV available. The same brick happens every game.

We need to stop with the excuses and be like Ange and own it. He's not even making the injuries excuse because he knows this is football and he knows he picked the squad.

He literally said after the game yesterday that even pool would struggle if they were missing the players we did
It’s on the BBC
He is owning it
And it’s his choice to clear the decks and do the rebuild this way. He is up for it And the players are too judging by the way they are trying to play and the work rate. Romeros comments were backing the manager recently and he could be more vocal and negative I guess
I did say judge after 10 games
Things weren’t bad after 10 games
We had bad luck in some games we should have won more points in. We’re and still in the cup and fine in Europe. That was with the injuries we had then
Since then we have lost an additional 7 players I think….
That’s a huge chunk of a squad that lost 16 players in varying ways in the summer and is part of the pain
I know I sound like a broken record and people can put me on ignore if they want
But the painful rebuild will have some pain. Last year wasn’t pain because it was progress in the end. This year we are seeing that pain now as go through the changes needed. Ange has binned off the players he had no confidence in playing his football
I watched the game and the highlights yesterday. The goal that killed us was the third goal. That was Ange ball because we were high up. But it was Drago making a bad individual error in going for a header when in a poor starting position and that left him out of place and exposed his team mates
The one after that when Kulu should have passed to an open and free Porro was Ange ball too but again, Kulu should have done the simple thing and passed the ball
The first two goals were down to the players we had available IMO… inferior quality and inexperience.

 

[billyiddo]

You can still play attacking football while not being a wide open brick show defensively you know

 

[Batspur]

You think Levy is a donkey? When did you become a Spurs fan? Because I think he has been fantastic for Spurs - trophy wins aside. How else do you think we came from the 80s/90s to being one of the richest clubs in the world? Luck?

'Trophy's aside'

Stockholm syndrome is strong in this one.

 

[stratnumberone]

My very basic thoughts on yesterday:

Even allowing for injuries, I think that Liverpool are miles better than us throughout the squad. They were superb all over the pitch yesterday. What disappointed me was that we didn’t make them work hard for their goals.

Nonetheless, given the circumstances I think that yesterday was something of a ‘free hit’.

The two goals we pulled back put a very moderate air of respectability onto the score line. I don’t think we should be fooled by that: we scored those goals because they stopped playing. They could’ve scored as many as they wanted yesterday.

We desperately need some players back before we can properly asses what stage/state we are in….

Happy Christmas!

 

[Jurgen the German]

You can still play attacking football while not being a wide open brick show defensively you know

Yeah it seems like it’s one or the other if you listen to some of the views on here.

 

[glasgowspur]

It’s not just one game, had we been more pragmatic all season we likely wouldn’t have so many injuries in the first place.

Had we sat in in this game I think a better result than a three goal defeat was possible though yes.

Possible, anything is possible, was it likely.

 

[Glenda's Legs]

Really?

But once again. That was not what my post was about. But seeing as I have had to say it twice now, you clearly don't understand simple concepts and ideas.

My post was about there being plenty of options and formations, with the players we had available today.

It's not a hard concept to understand unless you are mentally departed.

3rd time.

The point was we had plenty of options, to play plenty of formations.

You must be just being a d1ck now, as I can't believe some is so fecking stupid that they can't understand simple concepts.

And if you don't understand simple things like these, that they were just examples of formations we could playing with team we had available from the list stef supplied. Then the rest of whatever else you say is must be complete and utter bollox too.

Three times I have explained to you this... But no, who is actually put in the examples i supplied to highlight the fact that we could have played various teams and formations, with or without Kulu, Maddison, Porro, Reg, or whomever is more important to you than the actual point I was making.

You need to stop licking windows, it's clearly not good for you.

Totally unnecessary.