***OMT TOTTENHAM HOTSPUR vs Liverpool***

[monkeybarry]

I feel I've articulated an answer to that question elsewhere? Happy to give it a go again.

There is a long-term project/style in place. The club bought into it. The staff bought into it. The boardroom bought into it. We have put together a squad suited to that project/style. We have taken the route of youth maturing over a couple of years, alongside a few slightly older heads. We find ourselves with an injury crisis and having to use youth beyond their natural development stages. If we panic now, and throw out 18 months of work for some short-term pragmatism, firstly there is no guarantee that a pragmatic approach will work because they players are trained into a system and the pragmatism being demanded around here would require training ground work (we barely have the time between matches and recovery). It is uncomfortable, yes. But the bright spots are that certain players are growing into giants during this time. Learning so so much.

You ask about a red line. Here's mine.
If we enter the summer with a board which has not supported the manager in a way that helps him do his job -and if with a fitter/more available squad we continue to be unable to achieve any true consistency, then I think he would leave anyway. But for me personally, it would have to be pretty desperate/flirting with relegation to not give another chunk of time to make this work. But the most important buy-in will be at boardroom level.

Thanks for taking the time to post and articulate that.
I'm not a million miles away from where you are at. My key difference being I don't it's just the injuries that are the problem. And also understand that injuries are a part of sport, so you have to adapt.
Hopefully we can get to a 22 man squad that can plug and play Ange's way.
COYS

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Granted we do have injuries but we've been making silly mistakes in defence all season, we've had what 1 or 2 clean sheets so something isn't working at the back. Maybe the players can't handle the system and type of football required, we saw this with Pep in his 1st season and he only resolved it by spending hundreds of millions. We're not in a position to do that so I can only think we need to make a few tweaks to tighten things up. There's playing a certain way and then there's stubborn.

The system isn’t why we have made the mistakes imo (in most cases)
Look at when we concede that first goal when it happens so often
A recurring theme is the back post cross and the CB being at the front post too often

 

[Surfless]

However they have a double pivot shielding their CBs and both MacAllister plus Gravenbach might each be considered superior to (the perennially inconsistent) Bissouma or (post cruciate injury) Bentancur.

They also have an aerially dominant CB in van Dijk who is much better at dealing with crosses than Dragusin, Romero or van de Ven let alone young Gray.

Liverpool also have one of the world’s best wide attackers in Salah who can punish a knackered full-back far more ruthlessly than any of our wingers are capable of.

from front to back Liverpool are a stronger side - there's probably room on their bench for Maddison and Son, possibly Van Der Ven if he doesn't develop into Anderton #2.0. They have done this by recruiting well over a long period of time, and by being Liverpool - the brand and heritage attracts players plus Klopp as manager was a big draw as well. Man for man our first choice 11 is not superior on paper. In practice, our first choice team with Ange's approach is almost unplayable for any team. That's the bit I'm focused on. We need a full squad for him - 2 keepers, 4 centre halves, two left backs, two right backs, three holding midfielders, 3 number 8s, 6 wide players (two young, four established) and 2/3 strikers. Until we have all of this in place and the ability to rotate with no impact on performance, then we're laughing.

 

[Baleforce]

The system isn’t why we have made the mistakes imo (in most cases)
Look at when we concede that first goal when it happens so often
A recurring theme is the back post cross and the CB being at the front post too often

its the system that doesn't have someone tracking that runner to the back post

 

[Bishop]

It’s more than that
But when our stats were good we still had people saying we were bad
That’s what I don’t get
I even saw people going on about eriksen having some shots midweek that we’re blocked by way of saying United were better… that’s really odd too, to me

The stats just eventually evened out and matched what we were seeing with our eyes. We aren't a solid team defensively no amount of delusion is going to convince me of this. We weren't last season and we aren't this season.

That's actually fine to an extent because I don't believe it's ever going to be Ange's intention of being a side that keeps it tight and eeks out wins. Again I'm absolutely fine with that, but it does mean the quality of the attack needs to improve (which I've been saying for a year now) so that yes indeed we can overwhelm our opponents, because we aren't going to win games in any other way.

I'm just saying let's stop pretending that we are good defensively, we clearly aren't. Stop blaming individuals because when it was Romero playing you blamed him and now it's Dragusin you're blaming him. The mistakes are inherent to the system and the way we play.

Cool, I'll accept that but please don't try and tell me something is red when it's actually blue. Our system is porous, our system will always give openings to the opposition. So if we want to win we need to improve the calibre and quality of the players we have when in possession.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

The stats just eventually evened out and matched what we were seeing with our eyes. We aren't a solid team defensively no amount of delusion is going to convince me of this. We weren't last season and we aren't this season.

That's actually fine to an extent because I don't believe it's ever going to be Ange's intention of being a side that keeps it tight and eeks out wins. Again I'm absolutely fine with that, but it does mean the quality of the attack needs to improve (which I've been saying for a year now) so that yes indeed we can overwhelm our opponents, because we aren't going to win games in any other way.

I'm just saying let's stop pretending that we are good defensively, we clearly aren't. Stop blaming individuals because when it was Romero playing you blamed him and now it's Dragusin you're blaming him. The mistakes are inherent to the system and the way we play.

Cool, I'll accept that but please don't try and tell me something is red when it's actually blue. Our system is porous, our system will always give openings to the opposition. So if we want to win we need to improve the calibre and quality of the players we have when in possession.

Who has said that we are good defensively?
Not seen one person.
I don’t think the stats even out. They can’t because the variables change
We haven’t gotten hall we should have for example in theatres we didn’t get the wins we could have
That’s why it’s a 38 game season that you win or lose over
But the way im blaming the player making the mistake for the goal. That’s how it works
You can’t blame a player for not being involved in the goal otherwise that’s daft
When Romero let vardy score it was his fault
When he let wellbeck score when he was marking him it’s his fault
When dragusiin went in for a header and didn’t even get the man for the pool their goal he has commuted the master that exposed us
That’s on the player because they are indivual mistakes and really really basic. Like Sunday league basic
Hence why it’s easy to identify and indivual error
For pools second it was Spence and gray who clashed and Bissouma who key MacAllister run unmarked…. That’s 3 players plus Forster who made an error so not a singular issue

 

[Bishop]

Who has said that we are good defensively?
Not seen one person.
I don’t think the stats even out. They can’t because the variables change
We haven’t gotten hall we should have for example in theatres we didn’t get the wins we could have
That’s why it’s a 38 game season that you win or lose over
But the way im blaming the player making the mistake for the goal. That’s how it works
You can’t blame a player for not being involved in the goal otherwise that’s daft
When Romero let vardy score it was his fault
When he let wellbeck score when he was marking him it’s his fault
When dragusiin went in for a header and didn’t even get the man for the pool their goal he has commuted the master that exposed us
That’s on the player because they are indivual mistakes and really really basic. Like Sundareay league basic
Hence why it’s easy to identify and indivual error
For pools second it was Spence and gray who clashed and Bissouma who key MacAllister run unmarked…. That’s 3 players plus Forster who made an error so not a singular issue

Umm if you also think we are poor defensively why are you arguing the point. Multiple people have said we are poor defensively and you keep rebutting them. The assumption has to be you disagree and think we are good defensively and you argue for individual moments being the cause as opposed to them being systemic omes otherwise why argue against those comments in the first place?

 

[Bishop]

The system isn’t why we have made the mistakes imo (in most cases)
Look at when we concede that first goal when it happens so often
A recurring theme is the back post cross and the CB being at the front post too often

That's literally systemic because it hasn't mattered who is in place.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Umm if you also think we are poor defensively why are you arguing the point. Multiple people have said we are poor defensively and you keep rebutting them. The assumption has to be you disagree and think we are good defensively and you argue for individual moments being the cause as opposed to them being systemic omes otherwise why argue against those comments in the first place?

We aren’t poor
We aren’t great
We can be better
But I think it’s individual errors that have hurt more than system issues
We rarely concede a good goal
That’s why it’s annoying
The first pool goal on Sunday was a brilliant goal. Great cross and header. Every other one was because of an error and avoidable IIRC
Chelsea scored 4 goals big 2 were easily avoidable by standing up. Standing up FFS
United scored 2 goals from us literally passing them the ball.
But… trust how goals can and are scored in football
Our fans dwell way too much on the way we play rather than the way the players play it a lot of time.
Just been down the pub with some mates and the first comment was you scored 3 vs pool and there won’t be many who do that. A the second was what was your Cb thinking for their 3rd goal

 

[Kompakted]

But that looks like they commit both their full backs to attack…

It isn't about committing both full backs to attack. Poch committed both full backs to attack, but Dier or Wanyama used to drop to make a back 3 when it happened so we weren't as exposed.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

It isn't about committing both full backs to attack. Poch committed both full backs to attack, but Dier or Wanyama used to drop to make a back 3 when it happened so we weren't as exposed.

Yeah
I’ve seen our DM do that too

 

[P.D.]

The system isn’t why we have made the mistakes imo (in most cases)
Look at when we concede that first goal when it happens so often
A recurring theme is the back post cross and the CB being at the front post too often

Isn't that part of the system, we're not tracking runners or identifying that the same play is causing us to concede. I think individual mistakes can sometimes be linked to the system as well, if it's not well embedded and they don't understand their or others roles then they might not be fully switched on which causes lapses in concentration.

I can manage all that, just surprised Ange doesn't seem to do anything about it. I'm sure he doesn't want us to keep making the same mistakes at the back again and again and must spot them happening.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Isn't that part of the system, we're not tracking runners or identifying that the same play is causing us to concede. I think individual mistakes can sometimes be linked to the system as well, if it's not well embedded and they don't understand their or others roles then they might not be fully switched on which causes lapses in concentration.

I can manage all that, just surprised Ange doesn't seem to do anything about it. I'm sure he doesn't want us to keep making the same mistakes at the back again and again and must spot them happening.

Your talking runners
I’m talking about guys standing still who we leave and pass on
Wellbeck at Brighton
Vardy at Lestah
That’s two that come to mind as players who didn’t even need to run
The pool guys ran but they ran into open space because instead of marking some of our players watched
It’s a theme in the way some of our players think kmo
Not my man, not my problem then they drop their hands onto their knees afterwards knowing it was their man