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***OMT TOTTENHAM HOTSPUR vs Liverpool***

Bedfordspurs said:
Honestly
I wouldn’t be shocked with 2 wins in our next games or 2 defeats too
Pool in the league cup is gonna be nuts because we will be missing two players before the game starts due to suspension
Saudi Sportswashing Machine at home before that is bad timing as they look to have clicked and we still won’t have anyone back fit
I think we’re fudged but I said that before today
No team at any level is gonna maintain any firm or consistency playing every 4 days with no changes to the team and we don’t have available players to do that currently
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If our season does unravel in January and we go out of the cups and are still around 10th, it could get very uncomfortable for Ange. Can’t see Levy being delighted and could see fans turning if our season is pretty much over then. It really is a crucial few weeks for him and he badly needs big players back quickly.

Personally, I still think it’s a storm worth riding out but not sure Levy will see it like me.
 
stratnumberone said:
My very basic thoughts on yesterday:

Even allowing for injuries, I think that Liverpool are miles better than us throughout the squad. They were superb all over the pitch yesterday. What disappointed me was that we didn’t make them work hard for their goals.

Nonetheless, given the circumstances I think that yesterday was something of a ‘free hit’.

The two goals we pulled back put a very moderate air of respectability onto the score line. I don’t think we should be fooled by that: we scored those goals because they stopped playing. They could’ve scored as many as they wanted yesterday.

We desperately need some players back before we can properly asses what stage/state we are in….

Happy Christmas!
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I think that’s fair comment. They could have had double figures and that was directly attributable to how we set up. The could have had 3 before they scored at all.

Funnily enough, the one that irked me from a defensive perspective more than any of their goals was the one where their keeper chipped a straight ball forward and Szoboszlai ran on to it and missed. No professional team should ever, ever be undone by a ball like that. Unforgivable. At that point, I really feared we’d ship 8, 9 or 10 goals.
 
DeanoAustin said:
If our season does unravel in January and we go out of the cups and are still around 10th, it could get very uncomfortable for Ange. Can’t see Levy being delighted and could see fans turning if our season is pretty much over then. It really is a crucial few weeks for him and he badly needs big players back quickly.

Personally, I still think it’s a storm worth riding out but not sure Levy will see it like me.
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It can’t get more uncomfortable than it is now in my opinion
Only difference between now and a week ago is it’s back in Ange and not ENIC for some
That’s all that changes really
And we’re the big club in turmoil because United have a new manager. The press will focus on us and that will create selective data and comments to suit
Fans yesterday on tele sounded great. I didn’t go for once thanks to my sons Christmas thing and the date change but it was as positively vocal as I’ve heard considering.
 
thfcsteff said:
Understood and appreciate your opinion. IMO it's easy on (digital!) paper, but think about it. All of a sudden you tell Porro to sit. Which has a knock-in effect through the side. Systems in place need to be re-calibrated, who do the midfielders cover now that Porro is sitting? How far up do the attacking players push without the inside support/movement? Do we isolate the front three? Do we need to shift to a diamond midfield? Do we have the players -or current training- to do that? I will absolutely agree that Drags got caught today on that third goal, but if we look at how it started, it's happened because Madders has made a very tired effort in the upper left side of the pitch to play a ball across and weakly given up possession (largely I believe because he was knackered). Everyone is caught on the hop and Liverpool move quickly. I thought Liverpool were exceptional in their execution today.

One other thought. Forster cost us at least two goals today. I think it is imperative we make some sort of move in early January, as I believe his is largely broken at this point. His effort for that third was just terrible...
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There's a balance. Porro can't read the game. He doesn't know when to get up in support and when to stay a bit deeper. We are constantly targeted in that area and it doesn't matter who we are playing against they get joy down our right. Compare it to how Spence played. He was up against Salah, the best player in the league at the moment. He handled him really well and picked his moments to get forward too.

It wasn't only on the third goal that Dragusin got caught out. There was 3 or 4 times he chased into midfield leaving a huge gap behind him. I don't know if that's the player or instructions from Ange. Romero can be guilty of it too so it could be down to Ange.

You don't have to change the whole set up, just make tweaks so it's not as gung-ho, especially against a team like Liverpool that will punish any mistakes.
 
Bedfordspurs said:
It can’t get more uncomfortable than it is now in my opinion
Only difference between now and a week ago is it’s back in Ange and not ENIC for some
That’s all that changes really
And we’re the big club in turmoil because United have a new manager. The press will focus on us and that will create selective data and comments to suit
Fans yesterday on tele sounded great. I didn’t go for once thanks to my sons Christmas thing and the date change but it was as positively vocal as I’ve heard considering.
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Yeah I was impressed by the support. Even at 1-5, people stuck with it. Think there was an appreciation for the difficult circumstances.

You did have a minority of fudgers who left as the 4th and 5th went in. I’ll never understand that to be honest.
 
tommysvr said:
I agree with the overall point. I think Porro needs to be instructed to read the game better and hold his position more. He rushed out to press v Man Utd and it nearly ended with Mazaroui making it 3-3.

However, if Kulusevki gets the ball to Porro here it's very likely 3-2 and game on. Instead, it's 4-1 and just about all over. This is the risk vs reward of Ange and I'm confident it will fall our way more often than not.

What I'd really like to see is (in the second image) Dragusin wider on the right, with Bissouma creating a triangle with him and Gray. He can then at the very least delay this counter attack.

View attachment 18281

View attachment 18282

Our shape is a bit all over the place here though. Maddison on the left, Spence ahead of him, RW Kulusevki as an AM. Feels like a simple way to fix some of our immediate issues would be to focus on the shape more.
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Yup, a bit like when Dier used to drop in between Toby and Jan with them splitting to cover Walker and Rose bombing on. Whichever way it's done a tweak has to be made so we aren't constanly wide open and as you say have a proper shape.
 
DeanoAustin said:
Yeah I was impressed by the support. Even at 1-5, people stuck with it. Think there was an appreciation for the difficult circumstances.

You did have a minority of fudgers who left as the 4th and 5th went in. I’ll never understand that to be honest.
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My mates all left early
Then spent the next 6 hours drunkenly calling Ange a c bomb on every social media platform they could
Apart from one TBF. The one who goes home and away, is 52, single and lived and breathes Spurs. His comment was why would we change now…
 
thfcsteff said:
Those are only possible if we go through the next five months with the current squad in its current state of health (i.e. if we continue to have 10 players out). I don't usually do absolutes, but I will say unequivocally that if we get back at least 5 of those players by the end of January, we will be in and around the EL places. I think CL is a step too far this season. Relegation? I'm not being rude, but do you remember both the last time we were relegated and the last time we genuinely flirted with it? These are very different circumstances IMO...I am sure we both hope I am right?
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I haven't said I think we'll get relegated - I've asked the question about what people's red line is.

Yes we should get a lot better once players are back. So, am I correct to extrapolate that you are happy to lose doing things "the Ange way" every time we get injuries? Injuries and suspensions happen in football - you have to adapt when they do. If you are not prepared to adapt, you either have to accept defeat (ie philosophy first, points second) or have a squad as good and deep as the likes of Real Madrid.
And that last bit is the question no one seems prepared to answer - at what point, if any, do you no longer have tolerance for the philosophy first, points second approach?

Maybe a devils advocate scenario will help? 1 Feb comes along - Bentancur gets involves in something stupid again and banned six months; Romero goes flying into a stupid tackle and breaks his leg, VdV does him hamstring again.
Richi is still permanently injured.
What do you expect from Ange then? To carry on as is? Or to adapt to mitigate for the circumstances?
 
DeanoAustin said:
If our season does unravel in January and we go out of the cups and are still around 10th, it could get very uncomfortable for Ange. Can’t see Levy being delighted and could see fans turning if our season is pretty much over then. It really is a crucial few weeks for him and he badly needs big players back quickly.

Personally, I still think it’s a storm worth riding out but not sure Levy will see it like me.
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Levy ain't stupid. How is a change of manager going to help? Do players miraculously get fit if we bring in a new manager?
Everyone and his dog understands that our main issue now is because of all the injuries.
 
monkeybarry said:
I haven't said I think we'll get relegated - I've asked the question about what people's red line is.

Yes we should get a lot better once players are back. So, am I correct to extrapolate that you are happy to lose doing things "the Ange way" every time we get injuries? Injuries and suspensions happen in football - you have to adapt when they do. If you are not prepared to adapt, you either have to accept defeat (ie philosophy first, points second) or have a squad as good and deep as the likes of Real Madrid.
And that last bit is the question no one seems prepared to answer - at what point, if any, do you no longer have tolerance for the philosophy first, points second approach?

Maybe a devils advocate scenario will help? 1 Feb comes along - Bentancur gets involves in something stupid again and banned six months; Romero goes flying into a stupid tackle and breaks his leg, VdV does him hamstring again.
Richi is still permanently injured.
What do you expect from Ange then? To carry on as is? Or to adapt to mitigate for the circumstances?
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Injuries and suspensions do happen
But they don’t happen when your at the top of the table
That’s part of why those teams are top of the table. City lose one players and its season over. Arsenal lost one player and conceded the title… madness right
Also add in that we are changing the squad significantly
If this happens next winter and we haven’t added the players I fully expect us to Then I’d be raging
Bentacur and Bissouma need seriously reviewing by the club, along with Richy because of his injury issues
That’s a lot of money invested and for differing reasons some players with on and off the pitch challenges
 
Kandi1977 said:
Levy ain't stupid. How is a change of manager going to help? Do players miraculously get fit if we bring in a new manager?
Everyone and his dog understands that our main issue now is because of all the injuries.
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Well
You say that
But….
Every team gets injuries
Every team gets suspended
All teams play the same amount of games
Of course I’m being sarcastic but then when j see people say play Reggie I do think w shave fans who think there is a miracle cure by just chucking in a few more players even not allowing for the fact we would still be having several playing out of position, several injured and playing on and many knackered
 
I'm not going to bother commenting on this game other than to say it went pretty much the way I thought it would (I didn't think we'd score 3, but that had more to do with Liverpool taking their foot off the gas than anything else). I'll be much more interested in the next half-dozen or so results and how the January window shapes up.
 
Bedfordspurs said:
Injuries and suspensions do happen
But they don’t happen when your at the top of the table
That’s part of why those teams are top of the table. City lose one players and its season over. Arsenal lost one player and conceded the title… madness right
Also add in that we are changing the squad significantly
If this happens next winter and we haven’t added the players I fully expect us to Then I’d be raging
Bentacur and Bissouma need seriously reviewing by the club, along with Richy because of his injury issues
That’s a lot of money invested and for differing reasons some players with on and off the pitch challenges
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There is something in that re Man C and Arsenal, for sure. And the parallels with Pep right now are stark.

However, we are not top - and rarely have been.
We can all say "it'll be fine when x happens" - and I have openness to that.

Although your response does seem rather close to "buy all the top players " for Ange's philosophy to work. And I have some sympathy with that position too - even you need a different type of player (even if they are not the top players), then it takes time to rebuild.

But my question is about the now. If the players are not right yet, why accept losing and fitting square pegs in round holes ahead of a manager managing until we get the full suite of players he needs? Why comes back to my question re; where your red line is. How low are you prepared to let things go before we get Ange's perfect set up?

I'm very confused as to why people keep circumnavigating that question.
 
monkeybarry said:
There is something in that re Man C and Arsenal, for sure. And the parallels with Pep right now are stark.

However, we are not top - and rarely have been.
We can all say "it'll be fine when x happens" - and I have openness to that.

Although your response does seem rather close to "buy all the top players " for Ange's philosophy to work. And I have some sympathy with that position too - even you need a different type of player (even if they are not the top players), then it takes time to rebuild.

But my question is about the now. If the players are not right yet, why accept losing and fitting square pegs in round holes ahead of a manager managing until we get the full suite of players he needs? Why comes back to my question re; where your red line is. How low are you prepared to let things go before we get Ange's perfect set up?

I'm very confused as to why people keep circumnavigating that question.
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Because IMO he doesn’t have other options to play differently both technically and emotionally
The players he has at his current disposal have been coached to play a certain way, a way they have fully brought into imo
Then if he decides to change it for a few games he could break that buy in and potentially/likely gain nothing
As I’ve said loads it takes time and windows
There is really no point in having a plan with a coach and not sticking to it
The most successful organisations do just that and the most reactive organisations rarely progress
And have never said buy all the top players but we do need more players
I don’t give a toss what a fee is for a player. It’s a daft measure
I don’t buy into players reputations either because we don’t know them in reality
The key is the right players for the system and the coach
 
Bedfordspurs said:
He literally said after the game yesterday that even pool would struggle if they were missing the players we did
It’s on the BBC
He is owning it
And it’s his choice to clear the decks and do the rebuild this way. He is up for it And the players are too judging by the way they are trying to play and the work rate. Romeros comments were backing the manager recently and he could be more vocal and negative I guess
I did say judge after 10 games
Things weren’t bad after 10 games
We had bad luck in some games we should have won more points in. We’re and still in the cup and fine in Europe. That was with the injuries we had then
Since then we have lost an additional 7 players I think….
That’s a huge chunk of a squad that lost 16 players in varying ways in the summer and is part of the pain
I know I sound like a broken record and people can put me on ignore if they want
But the painful rebuild will have some pain. Last year wasn’t pain because it was progress in the end. This year we are seeing that pain now as go through the changes needed. Ange has binned off the players he had no confidence in playing his football
I watched the game and the highlights yesterday. The goal that killed us was the third goal. That was Ange ball because we were high up. But it was Drago making a bad individual error in going for a header when in a poor starting position and that left him out of place and exposed his team mates
The one after that when Kulu should have passed to an open and free Porro was Ange ball too but again, Kulu should have done the simple thing and passed the ball
The first two goals were down to the players we had available IMO… inferior quality and inexperience.
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I'm cool with the rebuild and the pain involved in going through it. I've signed on for that fully, but doing a rebuild requires honestly and introspection. So I just don't want to hear the excuses, you're using injuries to dismiss the very real defensive weaknesses we have in our setup. You know I've been saying this all season, before the injuries, hell even last season. I just don't want to hear the excuses anymore.

We are what we are which is a defensively naive, high pressing attacking team. It means we will score goals, but we will always be open at the back. It's undeniable at this point. It doesn't matter who we play. Earlier this season you were blaming Romero, now he's not playing and Dragusin is making the same decisions in play. It's not individual it's systemic. You need to pull your head out of the ground and look at what directly in front of your eyes.

That doesn't mean Ange out or even sack the whole coaching team but it does mean being honest with our defences because otherwise we will never fix them. We'll just keep burying our heads in the sad and find new excuses for everything instead actually addressing the problems.
 
Bishop said:
I'm cool with the rebuild and the pain involved in going through it. I've signed on for that fully, but doing a rebuild requires honestly and introspection. So I just don't want to hear the excuses, you're using injuries to dismiss the very real defensive weaknesses we have in our setup. You know I've been saying this all season, before the injuries, hell even last season. I just don't want to hear the excuses anymore.

We are what we are which is a defensively naive, high pressing attacking team. It means we will score goals, but we will always be open at the back. It's undeniable at this point. It doesn't matter who we play. Earlier this season you were blaming Romero, now he's not playing and Dragusin is making the same decisions in play. It's not individual it's systemic. You need to pull your head out of the ground and look at what directly in front of your eyes.

That doesn't mean Ange out or even sack the whole coaching team but it does mean being honest with our defences because otherwise we will never fix them. We'll just keep burying our heads in the sad and find new excuses for everything instead actually addressing the problems.
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Dragusin is making errors
He has also played some blinders
But again fatigue and injuries kick in
His errors iMO come inform him trying to be a leader at the back, something he isn’t ready for at risk level but there is no alternative player
And that fatigue is why teams rotate
We can’t even do that currently at the busiest point of the season
I can see it getting worse
 
Bedfordspurs said:
Because IMO he doesn’t have other options to play differently both technically and emotionally
The players he has at his current disposal have been coached to play a certain way, a way they have fully brought into imo
Then if he decides to change it for a few games he could break that buy in and potentially/likely gain nothing
As I’ve said loads it takes time and windows
There is really no point in having a plan with a coach and not sticking to it
The most successful organisations do just that and the most reactive organisations rarely progress
And have never said buy all the top players but we do need more players
I don’t give a toss what a fee is for a player. It’s a daft measure
I don’t buy into players reputations either because we don’t know them in reality
The key is the right players for the system and the coach
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Thanks. I think that's the closest I'm going to get to an answer to my question - it's philosophy first, points second, no matter what.
Which is great if it works out.
Disastrous if it doesn't.
 
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