*** OMT Tottenham Hotspur v Saudi Sportswashing Machine FC ***

[harr1984]

That’s not fair. Neville has a great knowledge of the game. If you listen to him and what he’s saying, he often gives some great insights.

Management is far more than just tactical knowledge. People management is bloody hard in normal life. In an environment where the media hammer you for any perceived failure, your players have been pampered from a young age and have entourages around them pushing selfish agendas, it’s very very difficult.

Neville also, naively IMO, took a job where he doesn’t speak the language which made his job a hell of a lot harder.

He knows his football.

Agree. Must confess I always enjoy listening to Neville, he's clearly knowledgeable and conveys his thoughts and analysis well. He also has a decent sense of humour and doesn't take himself too seriously, I might be in the minority but he's one of the better ones out there for me....

 

[Finney Is Back]

Can’t speak for him, but to me it’s pretty clear he’s not. What about engaging with the ideas Robspur posted. That the defence is depleted, demoralised and stressed but continues to play the exact same way. What’s the old saying about doing things the same way over and over but expecting different results.

They’re not playing the exact same way. The two fullbacks aren’t inverting to anywhere near the same extent, nor pushing up so much. The centre backs have also dropped the offside line back (only setting up on the half way line for the opponents goal kicks or free kicks deep in the opponents half.

 

[Daisuk]

Someone asked in here yesterday during the game who Anthony Gordon looked like, as he looked so similar to someone else - and I couldn't stop thinking about it. Today he just popped into my head. It's the first boxer from Punch Out! Glass Joe!

 

[90291Spur]

Teams need to start countering the time-wasting feigning of injuries to stop play. Perhaps competing for drop balls, or not giving the ball back when kicked out.

I have noticed that refs are calling on the trainer much sooner when a player goes down to obviously break up momentum of play. Meaning the player that needs to be treated will need to spend 30 seconds off the pitch.

One of the guys that sits near me suggested that the player spends the amount of time off the pitch that the game was stopped for.

I think that if a player goes down with a head injury they should be made to undergo and full and comprehensive concussion check off the pitch. That would stop the fake ones used to break up play. And no players should be allowed to talk to the coaches during an injury break.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

They’re not playing the exact same way. The two fullbacks aren’t inverting to anywhere near the same extent, nor pushing up so much. The centre backs have also dropped the offside line back (only setting up on the half way line for the opponents goal kicks or free kicks deep in the opponents half.

Yep
And we crossed more yesterday than I’ve seen in ages
We are changing but we still have issues because the owners are tired and inferior to the ones they are playing instead of

 

[Gutter Boy]

I think that if a player goes down with a head injury they should be made to undergo and full and comprehensive concussion check off the pitch. That would stop the fake ones used to break up play. And no players should be allowed to talk to the coaches during an injury break.

Just mandate restarts within 15 seconds or the setpiece is turned over. And treatment to injuries whilst play continues.

 

[Bullet]

Someone asked in here yesterday during the game who Anthony Gordon looked like, as he looked so similar to someone else - and I couldn't stop thinking about it. Today he just popped into my head. It's the first boxer from Punch Out! Glass Joe!

View attachment 18402

He's got a bit of the Davros about him, bless him
Not as much as Ian Dowie, mind you

 

[Bullet]

For me Saliba’s was a clear penalty. He went for the ball, missed it and caught the player.

But Saliba didn't miss the ball, he headed it?
Not picking you out Tommy, there are several people on the previous page saying Saliba missed the ball, but he didn't.

Note also that Deki got a touch on the ball with his left foot, just before his shoulder hit Gordon in the nose.

 

[Lost Mango]

But Saliba didn't miss the ball, he headed it?
Not picking you out Tommy, there are several people on the previous page saying Saliba missed the ball, but he didn't.

Note also that Deki got a touch on the ball with his left foot, just before his shoulder hit Gordon in the nose.

I don't think he got the ball, the ball gets him.

The Brighton player gets the ball, it comes off the top of Saliba's head.

As said on previous, if that had been by foot, where the Brighton player touched it and it bounced off Saliba's shin before his studs crashed into the Brighton player's ankle then most would say it was a foul. I don't see Saliba getting the touch he was going for.

 

[tommysvr]

But Saliba didn't miss the ball, he headed it?
Not picking you out Tommy, there are several people on the previous page saying Saliba missed the ball, but he didn't.

Note also that Deki got a touch on the ball with his left foot, just before his shoulder hit Gordon in the nose.

Ok so there's a touch on the ball -- agree with the above though, it was a consequence of the Brighton player getting to it first. But even if Saliba does touch it, it doesn't mean it's not a foul.

 

[Lemonade Money]

Someone asked in here yesterday during the game who Anthony Gordon looked like, as he looked so similar to someone else - and I couldn't stop thinking about it. Today he just popped into my head. It's the first boxer from Punch Out! Glass Joe!

View attachment 18402

 

[SteveAWOL]

View attachment 18406

Is there nothing she can’t do!

 

[thfcsteff]

I do wonder, (and of course I'm not the only one), generally though @thfcsteff that elite foot ball as a whole is putting players under too much physical stress (and then Ange's system is taking the stress even higher). Too many games, too little recovery times, to much strain on the musculoskeletal and cardiovascular system.

I don't like time wasting and going down injured too often in games. But actually what if it's a way to conserve energy in game? Ange doesn't like it either he wants the players to keep running. Maybe he needs to adapt his system so that his teams attack hard in phases but also then switch to less intensity in different phases of the game. Anyway what do I know other than it's a really interesting topic.

Nort sure if you ever listen to our pod, but we've been talking about this for two-plus seasons, since a few months before the last World Cup. In fact, we've gone as far as to suggest that elite careers will end up being 7-10 years maximum and that clubs will have to hold squads/rosters closer to NFL size. We've further posited that modern football is no longer an 11 + subs game, it is more like a 19 - 24 man game, where rotation and player time loads will have to be measured per week and adjusted accordingly. This probably isn't going to happen for several years, but we are at the beginning of it right now. One player in our recent past who saw it/felt it coming and adjusted accordingly was Kane. He got in personal nutritionists and trainers, plus adapted his style of play to preserve a longer career. Had he continued to play as he did during, say, 2017, I believe he would be winding doiwn right now.

I think when it comes to Ange and systems, the narrative is just too easily fed and watered. We do attack in waves and phases, just as we do sit off sometimes. We have seen Romero control the pace of games often by slowing things down at the back and deliberating over the pass instead of simply pinging it in or around a player. I think what people in this instance really want to say is that we should play a deeper game, more mid-to-low block, and counter attack - a la Conte era. The problem with that is you actually put your defence under much more pressure over the course of 95 minutes, and your 'dynamic movement' stresses shift to the attacking players. It is why I don't think we'll ever see more than a mid-block under Ange.

For me, the philosphy behind Ange's football is actually much more about control than it is chaos. I think people think we're chaotic because in a system like the one he tends to like deploying, there are some high-level chances given up as a consequence of risk and reward. But when working efficiently, the idea is that because we have the ball and are driving the play, we are controling the situation. I think one of the biggest problems we've had this season has come in chance conversions. IF we'd converted even a quarter of the chances we should've, I believe we'd have been in a few more games like Soton where we could sit off for 45 mins. If our injuries had not been so severe, I think in the closer games, we'd have been able to switch and maintain levels of pressure and retention without errors.

Most of the errors I've seen have been just that, mistakes. Not necessarily system-based. The fatigue you mention is a huge factor, especially the mental side of that. And if you look at our big injuries, the majority are full internationals whose calendars have been stuffed with enormous amounts of extra travel; that Sonny has gone down for 3 months is actually remarkable.

The reason I am not in the pragmatist camp is that the philosophy with which we play is the best way to control matches, and with a still-building squad such as ours, the levels of youth who are learning it are going to be so good with it in the months and years to come. What we are in the middle of right now is an absurd collision of bad luck versus overload versus circumstantial injuries because of the workload on a currently small squad. I am personally prepared to take the pain right now in order for the fulfillnment of the journey to be achieved, especially when I see performances like the one on Sunday from what was essentially a scratch side. As for changing style to possibly mitigate injuries, I personally think the potential and unproven benefits are too inconclusive versus the retrograde step such an action would be. I think we need to re-evaluate our recovery and fitness staff and programs to complement what we do better, but ultimately, the loads on these players will continue as long as football continues to flog them at every opportunity. Here's a suggestion to help fitness improve; abolish the Nations League. Here's another; introduce a mid-winter break. And another; reduce close season travel. And one more; have FIFA abolish that horrendous 'champions' tournament they've cooked up for this summer. Of course most of these are simply not possible because there is too much money in the game.

I think our approach is wholly sustainable if we can be patient. Football will catch up with itself, squads will be bigger, first 11s will increasingly be a thing of the past...perhaps by the time Lucas Bergvall is the 27 year old skipper of a title-winning Tottenham!

Always great to discuss these things with you my friend...

 

[tommysvr]

Nort sure if you ever listen to our pod, but we've been talking about this for two-plus seasons, since a few months before the last World Cup. In fact, we've gone as far as to suggest that elite careers will end up being 7-10 years maximum and that clubs will have to hold squads/rosters closer to NFL size. We've further posited that modern football is no longer an 11 + subs game, it is more like a 19 - 24 man game, where rotation and player time loads will have to be measured per week and adjusted accordingly. This probably isn't going to happen for several years, but we are at the beginning of it right now. One player in our recent past who saw it/felt it coming and adjusted accordingly was Kane. He got in personal nutritionists and trainers, plus adapted his style of play to preserve a longer career. Had he continued to play as he did during, say, 2017, I believe he would be winding doiwn right now.

I think when it comes to Ange and systems, the narrative is just too easily fed and watered. We do attack in waves and phases, just as we do sit off sometimes. We have seen Romero control the pace of games often by slowing things down at the back and deliberating over the pass instead of simply pinging it in or around a player. I think what people in this instance really want to say is that we should play a deeper game, more mid-to-low block, and counter attack - a la Conte era. The problem with that is you actually put your defence under much more pressure over the course of 95 minutes, and your 'dynamic movement' stresses shift to the attacking players. It is why I don't think we'll ever see more than a mid-block under Ange.

For me, the philosphy behind Ange's football is actually much more about control than it is chaos. I think people think we're chaotic because in a system like the one he tends to like deploying, there are some high-level chances given up as a consequence of risk and reward. But when working efficiently, the idea is that because we have the ball and are driving the play, we are controling the situation. I think one of the biggest problems we've had this season has come in chance conversions. IF we'd converted even a quarter of the chances we should've, I believe we'd have been in a few more games like Soton where we could sit off for 45 mins. If our injuries had not been so severe, I think in the closer games, we'd have been able to switch and maintain levels of pressure and retention without errors.

Most of the errors I've seen have been just that, mistakes. Not necessarily system-based. The fatigue you mention is a huge factor, especially the mental side of that. And if you look at our big injuries, the majority are full internationals whose calendars have been stuffed with enormous amounts of extra travel; that Sonny has gone down for 3 months is actually remarkable.

The reason I am not in the pragmatist camp is that the philosophy with which we play is the best way to control matches, and with a still-building squad such as ours, the levels of youth who are learning it are going to be so good with it in the months and years to come. What we are in the middle of right now is an absurd collision of bad luck versus overload versus circumstantial injuries because of the workload on a currently small squad. I am personally prepared to take the pain right now in order for the fulfillnment of the journey to be achieved, especially when I see performances like the one on Sunday from what was essentially a scratch side. As for changing style to possibly mitigate injuries, I personally think the potential and unproven benefits are too inconclusive versus the retrograde step such an action would be. I think we need to re-evaluate our recovery and fitness staff and programs to complement what we do better, but ultimately, the loads on these players will continue as long as football continues to flog them at every opportunity. Here's a suggestion to help fitness improve; abolish the Nations League. Here's another; introduce a mid-winter break. And another; reduce close season travel. And one more; have FIFA abolish that horrendous 'champions' tournament they've cooked up for this summer. Of course most of these are simply not possible because there is too much money in the game.

I think our approach is wholly sustainable if we can be patient. Football will catch up with itself, squads will be bigger, first 11s will increasingly be a thing of the past...perhaps by the time Lucas Bergvall is the 27 year old skipper of a title-winning Tottenham!

Always great to discuss these things with you my friend...

Fantastic post.

 

[Kandi1977]

But Saliba didn't miss the ball, he headed it?
Not picking you out Tommy, there are several people on the previous page saying Saliba missed the ball, but he didn't.

Note also that Deki got a touch on the ball with his left foot, just before his shoulder hit Gordon in the nose.

You need your eyes checked. Brighton player headed the ball, then Saliba headbutted him in the side of the head. Of course it's a penalty. Absolutely clear cut.

 

[thfcsteff]

100%. People crying about Saudi Sportswashing Machine players throwing their weight around and bullying our goalkeeper should maybe be asking why we weren't doing the same? You play the game and ref you're in, not the one you want to be in. If you've got a ref that let's challenges go then use it to your advantage like Saudi Sportswashing Machine did. If the ref dishes out a yellow in the first 10 mins you know you're in a different game. Its not rocket science it's the same thing on a Sunday on a park.

In the first half we allowed ourselves to be bullied. Second half to be fair I imagine Ange has said similar at half time and we came out and got on top of them physically and our football improved as a result. But we can be so soft in these games and we can be a bunch of whinge-bags as a club. Its what Roy Keane was talking about with the "lads, it's Tottenham" and while I think Poch and maybe Redknapp managed to shift the mentality, I think under Ange we do look very naive and inexperienced at times and you could absolutely apply the Roy Keane description to many games we play: "we know what Spurs are about, they're nice and tidy on the ball, but we'll f**king do them". If I'm being honest, that's Angeball in the PL right now: "nice and tidy on the ball, lots of chances and goals, but we'll lose 70% of our games"

And I'm sick of the victim mentality seeping into the club currently. Whether it's moaning about the injuries or the hand ball. If we hadn't played a hospital pass to Bergvall on the edge of our own box which he's had to stretch for and hit straight towards their pressing player the hand ball debate wouldn't even be a thing....

First of all, sorry but that's rubbish.
In fact, having got an elbow from Joelinton, Bergvall proceeded to put in a crunching tackle on him and show him he could not be bullied. Not ONE of our players complained about the Newcash Rugby Society at corners, they simply dealt with it and protected Austin - who himself got on with it and came for crosses anyway. If you're saying that Porro 'allowed' Joelinton to put a knee into his hamstring, ditto Bergvall 'allowed' a similar challenge and elbow, then you're wrong.
If you're criticising supporters who complained about Newcash's Tyneside Stokeisms, then fair enough because I'm in that group. Personally, I won't allow myself to be 'bullied' into some sort of 'stiff upper lip just take it' ride. Hard and fair? Fine by me and something we should deal with sans complaint. Dirty and unpunished? Nah; you shout about it IMO.

Saudi Sportswashing Machine got away with things in the first-half. That's a fact. Pointing them out is NOT being a 'victim' or having 'victim mentality' (a phrase I absolutely despise TBH), it is in this case a fact. And the other fact is that yes, you have to deal with it and get on with it. Which we did.

Here's a thought when it comes to 'moaning about injuries', perhaps if people whinging on and on about 'Angeball being wrong' would apply some context to the current situation, then the injuries thing wouldn't come up as much (even though, again, it's a fact).

Finally, and the ultimate irony, is people being 'sick of' and 'moaning' about Angeball and anyone who doesn't join them in trashing it.

 

[thfcsteff]

There's definitely something in that. And players associations have been raising concerns, e.g. football authorities insisting on holding international tournaments in extreme heat countries in the middle of European seasons etc. As well as the increase in stress related injuries such as metatarsal fractures, we've seen an increase in exhaustion related collapses and even cardiovascular incidents.

It is something a pod called The Game Is About Glory has spoken about extensively for approximately two years...

 

[Mr Gogolak]

Nort sure if you ever listen to our pod, but we've been talking about this for two-plus seasons, since a few months before the last World Cup. In fact, we've gone as far as to suggest that elite careers will end up being 7-10 years maximum and that clubs will have to hold squads/rosters closer to NFL size. We've further posited that modern football is no longer an 11 + subs game, it is more like a 19 - 24 man game, where rotation and player time loads will have to be measured per week and adjusted accordingly. This probably isn't going to happen for several years, but we are at the beginning of it right now. One player in our recent past who saw it/felt it coming and adjusted accordingly was Kane. He got in personal nutritionists and trainers, plus adapted his style of play to preserve a longer career. Had he continued to play as he did during, say, 2017, I believe he would be winding doiwn right now.

I disagree (again!): Messi played 779 games over 18 years (roughly 45 games/season). Ronaldo stands over 1,200 if I remember correctly. Everybody agrees that too many games are played at the moment, even more so with the new Club World Cup and the new format of the Champions League but the most likely outcome, in my opinion, is that either FIFA and UEFA will pressure the leagues into reducing the number of games (unlikely) or the bigger clubs will have these formats altered.

The Premier League is a bit of a unique case because of the intensity of the games and the fact that it generates a lot of interest everywhere in the world (La Liga being a distant second, and let's not talk about Ligue 1 or the Bundesliga). In my opinion, the FA or English clubs will never have the pull needed to implement the kind of change you're talking about, for different reasons: a) having an NFL-size roster would mean a huge drop in players' wages, and that's something FIFPro don't want to hear about (it's a red line for them, as I understand) at least if you want that to be sustainable anywhere else than the Premier League, b) UEFA and FIFA know that most competitions are becoming very predictable, so they have been working (through FFP, for instance) on having the best players spread, not stacked in gigantic rosters and c) perhaps unfairly, every major player in world football hates England and English clubs (and although this is completely irrational, I know that for a fact) to the point that they would go out of their way to spite them. And since this is an English problem...

 

[billyiddo]

But Saliba didn't miss the ball, he headed it?
Not picking you out Tommy, there are several people on the previous page saying Saliba missed the ball, but he didn't.

Note also that Deki got a touch on the ball with his left foot, just before his shoulder hit Gordon in the nose.

The ball hits him - not sure that's the same thing as not missing it.

I feel that a similar attempted challenge, with the feet, where one player clatters his opponent with say the ball grazing his ankle or whatever would clearly still be given as a foul

 

[braineclipse]

First of all, sorry but that's rubbish.
In fact, having got an elbow from Joelinton, Bergvall proceeded to put in a crunching tackle on him and show him he could not be bullied. Not ONE of our players complained about the Newcash Rugby Society at corners, they simply dealt with it and protected Austin - who himself got on with it and came for crosses anyway. If you're saying that Porro 'allowed' Joelinton to put a knee into his hamstring, ditto Bergvall 'allowed' a similar challenge and elbow, then you're wrong.
If you're criticising supporters who complained about Newcash's Tyneside Stokeisms, then fair enough because I'm in that group. Personally, I won't allow myself to be 'bullied' into some sort of 'stiff upper lip just take it' ride. Hard and fair? Fine by me and something we should deal with sans complaint. Dirty and unpunished? Nah; you shout about it IMO.

Saudi Sportswashing Machine got away with things in the first-half. That's a fact. Pointing them out is NOT being a 'victim' or having 'victim mentality' (a phrase I absolutely despise TBH), it is in this case a fact. And the other fact is that yes, you have to deal with it and get on with it. Which we did.

Here's a thought when it comes to 'moaning about injuries', perhaps if people whinging on and on about 'Angeball being wrong' would apply some context to the current situation, then the injuries thing wouldn't come up as much (even though, again, it's a fact).

Finally, and the ultimate irony, is people being 'sick of' and 'moaning' about Angeball and anyone who doesn't join them in trashing it.

Ange has to be one of the least "victim mentality" managers around. And seems to be demanding the same from his players.

This game was super frustrating and the players imo did us proud in very difficult circumstances. That doesn't happen with a victim mentality imo.

There probably isn't a way of talking about the context of injuries, fatigue and illness for us as fans that won't be labelled as excuse making or victim mentality by at least some. I'm quite happy that Ange isn't putting a lot of focus on that, it's not a useful focus for him or the players to have.

But us as fans talking about that context when evaluating games and performance isn't impacting how the manager or players view these things. And I think it's valuable and important context.

To put it differently, had we been going through this kind of run of relatively poor performances and results without that as the context I probably would be Ange out or fairly close to it.