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*** OMT Tottenham Hotspur v Saudi Sportswashing Machine FC ***

I disagree (again!): Messi played 779 games over 18 years (roughly 45 games/season). Ronaldo stands over 1,200 if I remember correctly. Everybody agrees that too many games are played at the moment, even more so with the new Club World Cup and the new format of the Champions League but the most likely outcome, in my opinion, is that either FIFA and UEFA will pressure the leagues into reducing the number of games (unlikely) or the bigger clubs will have these formats altered.

The Premier League is a bit of a unique case because of the intensity of the games and the fact that it generates a lot of interest everywhere in the world (La Liga being a distant second, and let's not talk about Ligue 1 or the Bundesliga). In my opinion, the FA or English clubs will never have the pull needed to implement the kind of change you're talking about, for different reasons: a) having an NFL-size roster would mean a huge drop in players' wages, and that's something FIFPro don't want to hear about (it's a red line for them, as I understand) at least if you want that to be sustainable anywhere else than the Premier League, b) UEFA and FIFA know that most competitions are becoming very predictable, so they have been working (through FFP, for instance) on having the best players spread, not stacked in gigantic rosters and c) perhaps unfairly, every major player in world football hates England and English clubs (and although this is completely irrational, I know that for a fact) to the point that they would go out of their way to spite them. And since this is an English problem...

A great set of counter points and frankly, worthy of a deeper dive/discussion. I'll focus on the first boldfaced line above and say I think you could well be right with regards to altered formats. I envisage the game heading to a more global space whereby the Premier League will see several games played overseas. I could also envisage a new Super League finally being formed.

With regards to larger rosters, I absolutely accept your POV that it is a very 'Premiercentric' view of matters, and as such, it might only be something which the Premier League itself chooses to ratify down the line to some degree (perhaps not NFL standards but I think we could easily see squad sizes of 28-30, with 22 on active match-day duty).

With regards to your FFP thoughts, the proof of that pudding is coming.
 
Ange has to be one of the least "victim mentality" managers around. And seems to be demanding the same from his players.

This game was super frustrating and the players imo did us proud in very difficult circumstances. That doesn't happen with a victim mentality imo.

There probably isn't a way of talking about the context of injuries, fatigue and illness for us as fans that won't be labelled as excuse making or victim mentality by at least some. I'm quite happy that Ange isn't putting a lot of focus on that, it's not a useful focus for him or the players to have.

But us as fans talking about that context when evaluating games and performance isn't impacting how the manager or players view these things. And I think it's valuable and important context.

To put it differently, had we been going through this kind of run of relatively poor performances and results without that as the context I probably would be Ange out or fairly close to it.
Exactly!
 
I think when it comes to Ange and systems, the narrative is just too easily fed and watered. We do attack in waves and phases, just as we do sit off sometimes.
Brilliant post Steff but on this I have to say that I have seen footage of training sessions where Ange is urging his players "come on keep running rest is for half time and at the end of the game!". It's how he wants his game played.

Additionally, did he not have similar issues with hamstring injuries at Celtic especially in his first season? He even acknowledges that and says that his players will eventually adapt. The difference is though the Scottish league is not as competitive so rotation of his Celtic squad didn't necessarily mean a drop in quality. He can't do that as easily in the PL.
 
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Brilliant post Steff but on this I have to say that I have seen footage of training sessions where Ange is urging his players "come on keep running rest is for half time and at the end of the game!". It's how he wants his game played.

Thanks mate, and I'd love to know whether that footage comes from sessions in the last few months. I'll go out on a limb and say I don't believe so. I agree, he does want the game played with pace, power and attitude (like most modern managers - I cannot imagine a training session where any manager wouldn't say things like that). Inn the last few weeks there have definitely been modifications to the system if not the approach. Finney's articulated them well.
 
Ange has to be one of the least "victim mentality" managers around. And seems to be demanding the same from his players.

This game was super frustrating and the players imo did us proud in very difficult circumstances. That doesn't happen with a victim mentality imo.

There probably isn't a way of talking about the context of injuries, fatigue and illness for us as fans that won't be labelled as excuse making or victim mentality by at least some. I'm quite happy that Ange isn't putting a lot of focus on that, it's not a useful focus for him or the players to have.

But us as fans talking about that context when evaluating games and performance isn't impacting how the manager or players view these things. And I think it's valuable and important context.

To put it differently, had we been going through this kind of run of relatively poor performances and results without that as the context I probably would be Ange out or fairly close to it.

I think you're right -- though watching the game the other day, I felt the victim mentality helped us in that it got the crowd right up for it.

I think football teams work well when there's a bit of an "us V them" mentality. It galvanises everyone, gets you working for the same cause. Lately, us V them has felt like fans V the club on a range of topics. Ticket prices, go karts, NFL, managers, transfers etc.

Not sure if that's the same as a victim mentality, but I think that can help sometimes. We all laugh at Liverpool for the way they act a bit but...I'm actually a little bit jealous of how all in they all are (success obviously helps.)
 
I think you're right -- though watching the game the other day, I felt the victim mentality helped us in that it got the crowd right up for it.

I think football teams work well when there's a bit of an "us V them" mentality. It galvanises everyone, gets you working for the same cause. Lately, us V them has felt like fans V the club on a range of topics. Ticket prices, go karts, NFL, managers, transfers etc.

Not sure if that's the same as a victim mentality, but I think that can help sometimes. We all laugh at Liverpool for the way they act a bit but...I'm actually a little bit jealous of how all in they all are (success obviously helps.)
I fully agree and think a "us vs them" mentality is a very different thing to a victim mentality.

I think Ange is doing good work on innstilling a good attitude in the players. And I think the Saudi Sportswashing Machine game was a good example of that.
 
Brilliant post Steff but on this I have to say that I have seen footage of training sessions where Ange is urging his players "come on keep running rest is for half time and at the end of the game!". It's how he wants his game played.

Additionally, did he not have similar issues with hamstring injuries at Celtic especially in his first season? He even acknowledges that and says that his players will eventually adapt. The difference is though the Scottish league is not as competitive so rotation of his Celtic squad didn't necessarily mean a drop in quality. He can't do that as easily in the PL.
The squad we're seemingly trying to build is one where we can rotate. Perhaps not without a drop in quality, particularly for the best players. But still. And that is very much needed for a team wanting to compete also in Europe.

We're not there yet, but we're building towards it.
 
I fully agree and think a "us vs them" mentality is a very different thing to a victim mentality.

I think Ange is doing good work on innstilling a good attitude in the players. And I think the Saudi Sportswashing Machine game was a good example of that.

I was thinking the same thing. Managers have always used a "siege" mentality to get positive outcomes out of their players.

We're in a perfect storm right now.
 
Nort sure if you ever listen to our pod, but we've been talking about this for two-plus seasons, since a few months before the last World Cup. In fact, we've gone as far as to suggest that elite careers will end up being 7-10 years maximum and that clubs will have to hold squads/rosters closer to NFL size. We've further posited that modern football is no longer an 11 + subs game, it is more like a 19 - 24 man game, where rotation and player time loads will have to be measured per week and adjusted accordingly. This probably isn't going to happen for several years, but we are at the beginning of it right now. One player in our recent past who saw it/felt it coming and adjusted accordingly was Kane. He got in personal nutritionists and trainers, plus adapted his style of play to preserve a longer career. Had he continued to play as he did during, say, 2017, I believe he would be winding doiwn right now.

I think when it comes to Ange and systems, the narrative is just too easily fed and watered. We do attack in waves and phases, just as we do sit off sometimes. We have seen Romero control the pace of games often by slowing things down at the back and deliberating over the pass instead of simply pinging it in or around a player. I think what people in this instance really want to say is that we should play a deeper game, more mid-to-low block, and counter attack - a la Conte era. The problem with that is you actually put your defence under much more pressure over the course of 95 minutes, and your 'dynamic movement' stresses shift to the attacking players. It is why I don't think we'll ever see more than a mid-block under Ange.

For me, the philosphy behind Ange's football is actually much more about control than it is chaos. I think people think we're chaotic because in a system like the one he tends to like deploying, there are some high-level chances given up as a consequence of risk and reward. But when working efficiently, the idea is that because we have the ball and are driving the play, we are controling the situation. I think one of the biggest problems we've had this season has come in chance conversions. IF we'd converted even a quarter of the chances we should've, I believe we'd have been in a few more games like Soton where we could sit off for 45 mins. If our injuries had not been so severe, I think in the closer games, we'd have been able to switch and maintain levels of pressure and retention without errors.

Most of the errors I've seen have been just that, mistakes. Not necessarily system-based. The fatigue you mention is a huge factor, especially the mental side of that. And if you look at our big injuries, the majority are full internationals whose calendars have been stuffed with enormous amounts of extra travel; that Sonny has gone down for 3 months is actually remarkable.

The reason I am not in the pragmatist camp is that the philosophy with which we play is the best way to control matches, and with a still-building squad such as ours, the levels of youth who are learning it are going to be so good with it in the months and years to come. What we are in the middle of right now is an absurd collision of bad luck versus overload versus circumstantial injuries because of the workload on a currently small squad. I am personally prepared to take the pain right now in order for the fulfillnment of the journey to be achieved, especially when I see performances like the one on Sunday from what was essentially a scratch side. As for changing style to possibly mitigate injuries, I personally think the potential and unproven benefits are too inconclusive versus the retrograde step such an action would be. I think we need to re-evaluate our recovery and fitness staff and programs to complement what we do better, but ultimately, the loads on these players will continue as long as football continues to flog them at every opportunity. Here's a suggestion to help fitness improve; abolish the Nations League. Here's another; introduce a mid-winter break. And another; reduce close season travel. And one more; have FIFA abolish that horrendous 'champions' tournament they've cooked up for this summer. Of course most of these are simply not possible because there is too much money in the game.

I think our approach is wholly sustainable if we can be patient. Football will catch up with itself, squads will be bigger, first 11s will increasingly be a thing of the past...perhaps by the time Lucas Bergvall is the 27 year old skipper of a title-winning Tottenham!

Always great to discuss these things with you my friend...

Glad I took time to read, I don't usually when they are this long as they tend to delve too deeply in tactics or financial issues which I find a complete waste of my time as I can have no effect on either.
 
First of all, sorry but that's rubbish.
In fact, having got an elbow from Joelinton, Bergvall proceeded to put in a crunching tackle on him and show him he could not be bullied. Not ONE of our players complained about the Newcash Rugby Society at corners, they simply dealt with it and protected Austin - who himself got on with it and came for crosses anyway. If you're saying that Porro 'allowed' Joelinton to put a knee into his hamstring, ditto Bergvall 'allowed' a similar challenge and elbow, then you're wrong.
If you're criticising supporters who complained about Newcash's Tyneside Stokeisms, then fair enough because I'm in that group. Personally, I won't allow myself to be 'bullied' into some sort of 'stiff upper lip just take it' ride. Hard and fair? Fine by me and something we should deal with sans complaint. Dirty and unpunished? Nah; you shout about it IMO.

Saudi Sportswashing Machine got away with things in the first-half. That's a fact. Pointing them out is NOT being a 'victim' or having 'victim mentality' (a phrase I absolutely despise TBH), it is in this case a fact. And the other fact is that yes, you have to deal with it and get on with it. Which we did.

Here's a thought when it comes to 'moaning about injuries', perhaps if people whinging on and on about 'Angeball being wrong' would apply some context to the current situation, then the injuries thing wouldn't come up as much (even though, again, it's a fact).

Finally, and the ultimate irony, is people being 'sick of' and 'moaning' about Angeball and anyone who doesn't join them in trashing it.

Oh dear I go into old fart mode, unfortunately the game has changed since I first attended and played, if someone took liberties they were sorted out by victim or team mate. This type of play and players are totally ignored by referees, anyone watching regularly could name teams and players who continually use this tactic and rather than nipping it in the bud refs. wait until about the 70 minute mark to book the culprits and a chance to be subbed.
 
Oh dear I go into old fart mode, unfortunately the game has changed since I first attended and played, if someone took liberties they were sorted out by victim or team mate. This type of play and players are totally ignored by referees, anyone watching regularly could name teams and players who continually use this tactic and rather than nipping it in the bud refs. wait until about the 70 minute mark to book the culprits and a chance to be subbed.

Please never lose your true understanding of the spirit of the game. When football people do that, we have lost the sport forever.

We are very close to RIP football as we stand. The game is in a mess.
 
I think the photo of Mackay and Bremner encaptures the spirit.

What's equally important is knowing what offside really is, knowing the difference between handball and not, appreciating that you can play without showing pain and just instinctively knowing when players are using the dark arts.

Mackay and Bremner were before my time, but I'd happily bring them back to teach Joelinton about the spirit of the game.
 
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