*** OMT Tottenham Hotspur v Saudi Sportswashing Machine FC ***

[stratnumberone]

I think it is absolutely OK to call Madley and other referees cheats. Their job is to administer the laws of the game, not ignore. No football stakeholder has ever given a referee permission to not use the laws of the game. This is nothing to do with the 2 clubs in the game of football. This is about dereliction of duties.

If a striker was pretending to shut down a goalkeeper, or trying to win a penalty that would be cheating. What the referees are doing is no different.

I think the difference is that a player is deliberately trying to gain an advantage by breaking the rules which is cheating. Realistically, it would take someone even more cynical than I to think that Madley was deliberately failing to enforce the rules in order to benefit Saudi Sportswashing Machine. Rather, I think that the reality is that he’s simply unbelievably poor at his job (like so, so many of his contemporaries) but doesn’t get held to account by the powers in control and is therefore free to continue ruining games week-after-week. By comparison, in my job I get assessed almost daily. If I performed as badly as he had done (consistent failure to apply SOP, inability to do the absolute basics, incapable of controlling the environment in which I operate) I would absolutely be removed from my duty and would not be reinstated until I had proven that I knew what I was supposed to be doing and could demonstrate as such to a selection of ‘checkers’. If I failed to do that, I would never return to my primary job and would have to find something else to do. I see no evidence that referees are held to any sort of standard whatsoever….

 

[stratnumberone]

Yes, it's a cultural problem in PGMOL that has existed for years. I actually though Howard Webb would clean up that culture that strongly existed under Mike Riley. He hasn't so far.

I think it is perfectly OK for this organisation to come under intense scrutiny every single week until they start performing. The managers need to speak up, just like Klopp and Arteta did.

I wonder what Howard Webb thought of Ange's interview yesterday and those repeated words. If I were Ange, I would have just said that the club is expecting Howard Webb to visit the club during the week and talk about his team's performance over this season. Then mentioned that referees are now impacting the league table. Fight fire with fire.

It absolutely staggers me that a multi billion £ worldwide industry can be hamstrung by such a tiny bunch of incapable pillocks.

 

[glasgowspur]

Yes, it's a cultural problem in PGMOL that has existed for years. I actually though Howard Webb would clean up that culture that strongly existed under Mike Riley. He hasn't so far.

I think it is perfectly OK for this organisation to come under intense scrutiny every single week until they start performing. The managers need to speak up, just like Klopp and Arteta did.

I wonder what Howard Webb thought of Ange's interview yesterday and those repeated words. If I were Ange, I would have just said that the club is expecting Howard Webb to visit the club during the week and talk about his team's performance over this season. Then mentioned that referees are now impacting the league table. Fight fire with fire.

It doesn't help when MOTD highlight the arsenal incident where Saliba goes for the ball and they say that's not a pen ( and I have to that is a hugely debatable decision) and then compare it to kulu who makes no attempt to do anything and the player turns into him but that is more a pen than the arsenal one!
So attempt to take the ball and miss it isn't a pen, player turns into you, kulu clearly tries to pull his shoulder out of the way, and the player clatter him and that's a pen.
BTW kulu made more attempt to get his shoulder out of the way than joelinton did to get his hand out of the way of the ball.
Harsh words from one club aren't going to cut it, the clubs need to do it together, the standard of reffing from decision to decision is awful.
There will always be subjective decisions, but they are constantly ignoring non subjective decisions.

 

[Jurgen the German]

Hold on… your getting two things mixed up again
I’m talking about their defending and you talk goals…. Not sure how your correlating the two

I’m talking about their performances as a whole. And Maddison gets criticised for not being consistent despite scoring more goals than Johnson from a deeper position. When Johnson doesn’t score he’s about as useful as Erling Haaland.

 

[Muttley]

I think the difference is that a player is deliberately trying to gain an advantage by breaking the rules which is cheating. Realistically, it works take someone even more cynical than I to think that Marley was deliberately failing to enforce the rules in order to benefit Saudi Sportswashing Machine. Rather, I think that the reality is that he’s simply unbelievably poor at his job (like so, so many of his contemporaries) but doesn’t get held to account by the powers in control and is therefore free to continue ruining games week-after-week. By comparison, in my job I get assessed almost daily. If I performed as badly as he had done (consistent failure to apply SOP, inability to do the absolute basics, incapable of controlling the environment in which I operate) I would absolutely be removed from my duty and would not be reinstated until I had proven that I knew what I was supposed to be doing and could demonstrate as such to a selection of ‘checkers’. If I failed to do that, I would never return to my primary job and would have to find something else to do. I see no evidence that referees are held to any sort of standard whatsoever….

But that it is the issue. The problem is PGMOL as much as it is these referees. I quite often go to step 5 games and watch referees at that level. There will be assessors at the game, and any ref at that level should be on the PGMOL database. They should all have equal opportunity to make it to the elite level. lol - can't believe I just write the word elite.

I'm pretty certain that any referee across this country that enforces the laws of the game won't make it up that pyramid. It's so different from your job as the establishment don't want law enforcers. The sad reality as well is that referees know that they need to do things to make sure their name is known. That means they can get into the multi-millionaire status like a Mike Dean or a Mark Clattenberg. Just becoming a great law enforcer that quietly gets on with their job is not on the agenda.

It is so messed up.

 

[Muttley]

It doesn't help when MOTD highlight the arsenal incident where Saliba goes for the ball and they say that's not a pen ( and I have to that is a hugely debatable decision) and then compare it to kulu who makes no attempt to do anything and the player turns into him but that is more a pen than the arsenal one!
So attempt to take the ball and miss it isn't a pen, player turns into you, kulu clearly tries to pull his shoulder out of the way, and the player clatter him and that's a pen.
BTW kulu made more attempt to get his shoulder out of the way than joelinton did to get his hand out of the way of the ball.
Harsh words from one club aren't going to cut it, the clubs need to do it together, the standard of reffing from decision to decision is awful.
There will always be subjective decisions, but they are constantly ignoring non subjective decisions.

I've always been Anthony Taylor's biggest critic. That Saliba call was absolutely spot on. Fair play.

 

[glasgowspur]

I've always been Anthony Taylor's biggest critic. That Saliba call was absolutely spot on. Fair play.

I think it's debatable tbh, can see why it's given but would feel very aggrieved if that was us.
As for the "well it can't be right, I've never seen it happen before" line from MOTD, that's pathetic.

 

[K.D.D.D.D.Soc]

I think it's debatable tbh, can see why it's given but would feel very aggrieved if that was us.
As for the "well it can't be right, I've never seen it happen before" line from MOTD, that's pathetic.

It appears fair game for MOTD presenters to say what they like about managers and promote sacking them but open criticism of referees and certain players is taboo. I suppose the belief is to protect the product and not highlight what is wrong in the management of the game as a whole or offend mates.

 

[Robspur12]

I can only say that whilst I see what you're saying, I wholly disagree that we should drastically alter the way we play based on an injury crisis. I think the net success (so far as extra points gained) would be negligible at best. The modifications we've made have been appropriate.

The fatigue and stress are absolutely right, and we have been unable to break that cycle. I think changing the way we play would only add to that. Again, we have modified aspects of what we do.

I do wonder, (and of course I'm not the only one), generally though @thfcsteff that elite foot ball as a whole is putting players under too much physical stress (and then Ange's system is taking the stress even higher). Too many games, too little recovery times, to much strain on the musculoskeletal and cardiovascular system.

I don't like time wasting and going down injured too often in games. But actually what if it's a way to conserve energy in game? Ange doesn't like it either he wants the players to keep running. Maybe he needs to adapt his system so that his teams attack hard in phases but also then switch to less intensity in different phases of the game. Anyway what do I know other than it's a really interesting topic.

 

[Muttley]

I think it's debatable tbh, can see why it's given but would feel very aggrieved if that was us.
As for the "well it can't be right, I've never seen it happen before" line from MOTD, that's pathetic.

Perhaps when you look at it in comparison to the laws it is black and white. Brighton had possession, and their player was fouled in the box and lost possession because of it. It is a clear foul, and therefore a penalty. It doesn't even matter if Saliba did it deliberately or not.

I don't see any grey areas. It is certainly not a grey area because it rarely ever happens.

 

[Kompakted]

I do wonder, (and of course I'm not the only one), generally though @thfcsteff that elite foot ball as a whole is putting players under too much physical stress (and then Ange's system is taking the stress even higher). Too many games, too little recovery times, to much strain on the musculoskeletal and cardiovascular system.

I don't like time wasting and going down injured too often in games. But actually what if it's a way to conserve energy in game? Ange doesn't like it either he wants the players to keep running. Maybe he needs to adapt his system so that his teams attack hard in phases but also then switch to less intensity in different phases of the game. Anyway what do I know other than it's a really interesting topic.

There's definitely something in that. And players associations have been raising concerns, e.g. football authorities insisting on holding international tournaments in extreme heat countries in the middle of European seasons etc. As well as the increase in stress related injuries such as metatarsal fractures, we've seen an increase in exhaustion related collapses and even cardiovascular incidents.

 

[tommysvr]

I think it's debatable tbh, can see why it's given but would feel very aggrieved if that was us.
As for the "well it can't be right, I've never seen it happen before" line from MOTD, that's pathetic.

That was such a bizarre line from Lineker and Danny Murphy I think it was? In what world does “I’ve never seen that before” come into it??

For me Saliba’s was a clear penalty. He went for the ball, missed it and caught the player. If that’s with his foot, it’s a foul, so why would it be different because it’s his head? Even more dangerous really!

Kulusevski on Gordon…no chance. The one in motion there is Gordon — he’s travelling towards Deki. He can’t just disappear.

 

[tommysvr]

It appears fair game for MOTD presenters to say what they like about managers and promote sacking them but open criticism of referees and certain players is taboo. I suppose the belief is to protect the product and not highlight what is wrong in the management of the game as a whole or offend mates.

The ones on TV are just failed managers/coaches. They can’t do it themselves so they have sit and criticise the rest.

 

[Kompakted]

The ones on TV are just failed managers/coaches. They can’t do it themselves so they have sit and criticise the rest.

It was actually hilarious when Gary Neville managed to build himself a rep as one of the more insightful tactician pundits and then when he actually managed to land a prestigious head coach position at Valencia promptly showed how much he actually knew.....

 

[Kandi1977]

I agree on all counts.

One interesting thing I’ve gauged from speaking to various people is that the time wasting seems to irritate the match-going fan far more than the TV fan. Obviously I’ve only encountered a very small sample size, nonetheless it may give an indication of the feeling regarding time wasting among the wider football population.

For the record, I think that certain elements of ‘game management’ do not constitute time wasting (eg playing the ball into the corner) and are a legitimate - albeit frustrating - aspect of football. The time wasting, however, is cheating pure and simply.

Actually it would help if the media community would dispense with the ridiculous ‘dark arts’ style euphemisms and refer to it as what it is: cheating. It’s stealing time out the game in an illegitimate manner and is rewarding underhand tactics while simultaneously short-changing the fans. Saudi Sportswashing Machine is a Cat A game at Spurs and I don’t think there are any tickets available below the £70 mark. The majority are into the £80s bracket. Broadly speaking that’s £1 per minute: Saudi Sportswashing Machine probably took at least 15 minutes out of the second half alone…

There one instance in added time that made me furious. Ball went out for a GK for Poocastle, and it took 1 minute 24 seconds from the GK picking up the ball until it was in play again. Ref didn't even give him the hurry up!

 

[glasgowspur]

It appears fair game for MOTD presenters to say what they like about managers and promote sacking them but open criticism of referees and certain players is taboo. I suppose the belief is to protect the product and not highlight what is wrong in the management of the game as a whole or offend mates.

What I found bizarre was that the usual line they trot out of "forwards union" or "defenders union" but shearer and Lineker sided with the defender on the arsenal one and Richards sided with the attacker on the Kulu one.

 

[DeanoAustin]

It was actually hilarious when Gary Neville managed to build himself a rep as one of the more insightful tactician pundits and then when he actually managed to land a prestigious head coach position at Valencia promptly showed how much he actually knew.....

That’s not fair. Neville has a great knowledge of the game. If you listen to him and what he’s saying, he often gives some great insights.

Management is far more than just tactical knowledge. People management is bloody hard in normal life. In an environment where the media hammer you for any perceived failure, your players have been pampered from a young age and have entourages around them pushing selfish agendas, it’s very very difficult.

Neville also, naively IMO, took a job where he doesn’t speak the language which made his job a hell of a lot harder.

He knows his football.

 

[DeanoAustin]

Anyone hear Ange’s interview with Matterface on Talksport? Taken at face value, it was a bit rude and nonsense to be honest. If he’s playing the game, fair enough.

 

[glasgowspur]

That’s not fair. Neville has a great knowledge of the game. If you listen to him and what he’s saying, he often gives some great insights.

Management is far more than just tactical knowledge. People management is bloody hard in normal life. In an environment where the media hammer you for any perceived failure, your players have been pampered from a young age and have entourages around them pushing selfish agendas, it’s very very difficult.

Neville also, naively IMO, took a job where he doesn’t speak the language which made his job a hell of a lot harder.

He knows his football.

I always maintain that fergie was a good but not a great football manager, but he was absolutely elite man manager and wrung the best out of his teams.

 

[DeanoAustin]

I always maintain that fergie was a good but not a great football manager, but he was absolutely elite man manager and wrung the best out of his teams.

I’ve heard that said and I’ve no idea how good he was tactically. But he was amazing at people management going by the stories.

You hear people say “he’d have been screwed in this day and age with the snowflakes playing.” The thing with Fergie was that he managed through a lot of that change from the early 80s to 2013 and did it successfully. Lads even speak about how he adapted. He’d have been just fine in todays game as far as the man management bit goes.