• Dear Guest, Please note that adult content is not permitted on this forum. We have had our Google ads disabled at times due to some posts that were found from some time ago. Please do not post adult content and if you see any already on the forum, please report the post so that we can deal with it. Adult content is allowed in the glory hole - you will have to request permission to access it. Thanks, scara

Jan Vertonghen

Brain - I don't think the Dier/Vertonghen partnership looks very strong to answer your post without quoting, we've conceded 50% more goals with them two as a starting pair than with the Fazio/Vertonghen partnership - which i put down to Fazio being a leader in character and Vertonghen being a quality CB when able to focus on his own game - when left as the senior (leader) CB, as with his partnership with Dier, the team suffers defensively as (imo) it's two individuals rather than a partnership
 
billyiddo said:
Brain - I don't think the Dier/Vertonghen partnership looks very strong to answer your post without quoting, we've conceded 50% more goals with them two as a starting pair than with the Fazio/Vertonghen partnership - which i put down to Fazio being a leader in character and Vertonghen being a quality CB when able to focus on his own game - when left as the senior (leader) CB, as with his partnership with Dier, the team suffers defensively as (imo) it's two individuals rather than a partnership
Click to expand...

Lot of truth in that, I have always believed that the CB partnership in a team is the most important one and ( imo) Jan is our best CB and alongside Fazio look our best pairing.
 
billyiddo said:
Brain - I don't think the Dier/Vertonghen partnership looks very strong to answer your post without quoting, we've conceded 50% more goals with them two as a starting pair than with the Fazio/Vertonghen partnership - which i put down to Fazio being a leader in character and Vertonghen being a quality CB when able to focus on his own game - when left as the senior (leader) CB, as with his partnership with Dier, the team suffers defensively as (imo) it's two individuals rather than a partnership
Click to expand...

I too rate the Fazio and Vertonghen partnership higher.

I also rate Fazio as a better centre back than Dier at this point in time.

As others have pointed out Fazio didn't look like a great organizer earlier this season when playing alongside other centre backs than Vertonghen. Not sure why Vertonghen is getting picked on now after a couple of mistakes from his partner whereas Fazio is seen as a better leader based on not having played alongside Dier and only really doing well alongside Vertonghen so far?
 
braineclipse said:
I too rate the Fazio and Vertonghen partnership higher.

I also rate Fazio as a better centre back than Dier at this point in time.

As others have pointed out Fazio didn't look like a great organizer earlier this season when playing alongside other centre backs than Vertonghen. Not sure why Vertonghen is getting picked on now after a couple of mistakes from his partner whereas Fazio is seen as a better leader based on not having played alongside Dier and only really doing well alongside Vertonghen so far?
Click to expand...

I think you misunderstand where im coming from - im not picking on Vertonghen - im a fan of his and im on Parklane1s side of the fence re contract/body language stuff. But having watched him play for nearly three seasons now i think i've seen enough to say with some conviction that he needs an organizer/leader alongside him to get the best out of him (in terms of a pair as opposed to individually) as that is when he has been at his best.

No offense intended here but you can see more at the game off the ball than on tv and compared to Dawson/Fazio Vertonghen does not appear to offer much in the way of communication with the rest of the backline.
 
billyiddo said:
I think you misunderstand where im coming from - im not picking on Vertonghen - im a fan of his and im on Parklane1s side of the fence re contract/body language stuff. But having watched him play for nearly three seasons now i think i've seen enough to say with some conviction that he needs an organizer/leader alongside him to get the best out of him (in terms of a pair as opposed to individually) as that is when he has been at his best.

No offense intended here but you can see more at the game off the ball than on tv and compared to Dawson/Fazio Vertonghen does not appear to offer much in the way of communication with the rest of the backline.
Click to expand...

You might not be the one picking on Vertonghen, but you stepped into the discussion saying that those defending him were talking nonsense because no one has said that Dier is faultless. Which I then disagreed with...

I realize that there are something that are seen better watching the game live, definitely no offense taken. Dawson never looked good to me unless being partnered with a more experienced leader like King or Gallas. Him and Vertonghen working well together seemedindicate to me a testament to Vertonghen's organizational skills, not the other way around. I think there's much more to being the leader of a centre back partnership than just the communication audible to the crowd.

It might be that Fazio is clearly the better organizer of him and Vertonghen. I have seen nothing to that is all I'm saying. And I have to say that it seems a very odd decision by Poch to drop Fazio for Dier if that was in fact the case.
 
Brain, i said the post from COYS300 was nonsense (in reply to parklane saying it was spot on) because no one had said Dier was faultless (as that particular post implied) - ill happily retract that if someone can prove otherwise... ;)
 
billyiddo said:
Brain, i said the post from COYS300 was nonsense (in reply to parklane saying it was spot on) because no on had said Dier was faultless (as that particular post implied) - ill happily retract that if someone can provide me with a post from someone saying Dier was not to blame for his errors in the United game because then id be wrong, otherwise... ;)
Click to expand...

We must have read COYS300's post very differently. I didn't see it as him saying that people were literally claiming that Dier made no errors in the United game.
 
braineclipse said:
We must have read COYS300's post very differently. I didn't see it as him saying that people were literally claiming that Dier made no errors in the United game.
Click to expand...

That's not what i am saying - he built a straw man whereby Dier 'can do no wrong' and Vertonghen gets all the blame ('avoid blaming their favourites') - which to my knowledge in no way resembles the posts on the subject, unless i've missed someone saying Vertonghen is entirely to blame for Dier making the mistakes he did?

Anyway...

I think Dier was initially brought in for Fazio at CB in a tactical move to deal with a pacy forward (iirc) - he played well, and true to MPs rewarding good performances/training hard reputation, possibly earned himself a run in the team - as with other positions and other discussions it could be that he likes to look at players over a run of games than any clear indication as to who is and who isn't first choice. Would be interesting to see a Dier/Fazio partnership for the remainder of the season - may settle some debates...
 
billyiddo said:
That's not what i am saying - he built a straw man whereby Dier 'can do no wrong' and Vertonghen gets all the blame ('avoid blaming their favourites') - which to my knowledge in no way resembles the posts on the subject, unless i've missed someone saying Vertonghen is entirely to blame for Dier making the mistakes he did?

Anyway...

I think Dier was initially brought in for Fazio at CB in a tactical move to deal with a pacy forward (iirc) - he played well, and true to MPs rewarding good performances/training hard reputation, possibly earned himself a run in the team - as with other positions and other discussions it could be that he likes to look at players over a run of games than any clear indication as to who is and who isn't first choice. Would be interesting to see a Dier/Fazio partnership for the remainder of the season - may settle some debates...
Click to expand...

Isn't "X can do no wrong" a fairly commonly used expression? Used to describe someone that gets away with a lot without criticism, or gets excuses made for them? Not always literally meaning that they never get criticism? I really don't think it's much of a straw man to say that about Dier. He's been getting away with a lot of stuff imo, whereas Vertonghen gets blamed for just about anything.

I agree that Dier was probably given a run for various reasons. I personally would want to see our strongest partnership until a time where 4th really looks impossible. And I think resting Dier after a fairly poor game instead of increasing the pressure on him by playing him every game might be a good idea.
 
Yes you can use it that way and point taken - but my sticking point is that Dier IS getting called out for the mistakes and not in any way getting off scott free as has been implied (imv at least) it's just that some are also saying ' as the senior player of the partnership perhaps Vertonghen should be doing more to help the less experienced player out' - which i feel is fair as central defense is a partnership at the end of the day. But no biggie
 
If Fazio is fit next Saturday i would play him alongside Dier with Rose and Waker.

That's potentially 3 relatively pacy players to play alongside a very slow Fazio, but his organisational skills mixed with their pace could be a revelation.
Jan could do with a rest/kick up the backside imo
 
Mr too I think fazio and dier will be our best combination out of the three. Also Vert's has never looked settled in Poch's high line in my eyes, will not be surprised to see him move to improve his game .... (flamesuit on)
 
Who says Fazio has any organisational ability? Where is this being observed? I don't get it.. He seems clumsy and out of position ALOT in many games I've seen him in.
 
Coys300 said:
Lol, you know how much abuse he got last year? If he is 'the problem', why then is he the only one who is pretty much a regular at CB? Why doesn't Pochettino bench him? It is funny that during the short period in which this actually happened we were worse than ever at the back.
Click to expand...
I'm not worried about last year and the reason Poch doesn't bench him is the same reason That Townsend is in the team.
 
Yiddo said:
I'm not worried about last year and the reason Poch doesn't bench him is the same reason That Townsend is in the team.
Click to expand...

It's really not. Look at the number of league appearances. Number of times being subbed. Appearances in a row during our congested fixture list.
 
How anyone would drop jan blows me mind... He's our only great CB.... We need to be thinking about who partners him. I think Fazio for now, but ultimately feel we really need a quality partner for him next season.
 
GrimsbyYid said:
How anyone would drop jan blows me mind... He's our only great CB.... We need to be thinking about who partners him. I think Fazio for now, but ultimately feel we really need a quality partner for him next season.
Click to expand...

Big statement there - Can you clarify what in your opinion makes him a "great" center-back?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back