Antonio Conte - officially NOT the coach of THFC

[Jurgen the German]

But they’ve still beaten us and Liverpool. What have we done of note? As it stands hard to say that they haven’t become better than us. They’re definitely objectively better to watch than we are. We barely had a shot of quality last night. Conte needs to make big changes if we are to bounce back from this but he did so little in game against Manchester United last night that it makes me question if he has any alternative ideas.

Combination of them improving on last season and having a generous run of fixtures. I’m not convinced they will be top for much longer but they will be in the top 4 IMO. Let’s see how they cope over the season when they have to deal with multiple cup competitions and sustain a challenge for the top 4 or higher. They had no Europe last season, went out of the cups early and still blew the top 4. They look odds on to win their EL group which will add to their fixtures. I’m interested to see how they cope with the extra games and hopefully with some injuries.

 

[Finney Is Back]

We lost because United played with much, much higher intensity and press. They were relentless in their press, and when players get pressed hard, by multiple players, even very good players make mistakes, or lose the ball and look average. Only the absolute best manage to handle that sort of press, and even they will not be able to handle it an entire game without mistakes.
We didn't press them at all, and when players are given all the time in the world, even average players look good. We allowed them to play exactly like they wanted, without any press. That's why we lost. If we had done the same to them, they'd look worse than average.
But when you allow decent to good players, like they have, to have all the time in the world, and let them have a go, uncontested, 20+ times in the first half alone, you are asking for trouble!

Agree completely. I don’t think those talking about swapping this player for that player are understanding the actual issue. We were pressed into submission and fail to do any pressing of the opposition, giving them time to pick a pass. That meant that Man Utd could play most of the game in our half. We immediately concede territory and attacking intent by playing 3 CBs, especially as two of them aren’t particularly creative or great passers of the ball. The problem is that I don’t think any of them are suited to playing in a 2 either. We are therefore having to try to play through a press from a deep position with only really Harry Kane as an outball and nobody creative for him to give the ball to if and when he manages to win his one on one battle (as he did several times last night).

It might’ve been an idea last night to leave Son high up and immediately go over the top from the centre backs a few times to at least make Man Utd think twice about being able to completely squeeze us into our own half.

While it is a shame that we have Kulu and Richarlison out at the same time, which means we cannot play 3 up top (which I think would’ve pinned their full backs a bit more) we completely lack a player who can create from central positions, I think it is imperative that we find one of these in January, otherwise the 3-4-3 counter attack shape is the only one that we’ll be able to play with any success and even that relies on a fit and firing Kulusevski IMO.

 

[Finney Is Back]

Yes, the midfield stood off them around our box and in general. There were numerous times they got to the edge of our box and had no player within 5 yards of them.
That is the responsibility of the midfield. Our passing was terrible, sideways and backwards most of the time with no decent forward passes just hopeful punts.
It has been terrible most of the season and not just because of the press last night. Even when we are playing well moves constantly break down because of poor passing from
midfield.

It is easy to blame the midfield for the passing but it misses the crux of the problem IMO and that is that there was rarely a ball on for them that wasn’t very dangerous to play…. We were compressed into our own third with Kane and Son central facing their own goal. Vertical passes into man marked players in central positions create the most dangerous turnover transitions.

The midfield did not even have the full backs high up to pass to as Dalot and Shaw had them pinned due to Man Utd’s high position on the pitch.

The best thing to have done would’ve been leave Son high up top and go over the top a few times, I think that would’ve caused Man Utd to drop off a little and open up some space between Man Utd’s defence and midfield that Kane could’ve operated in. Or at the very least caused Man Utd to drop another midfielder in a little deeper and making their press less effective.

 

[El Guepardo]

If we perform like that against Saudi Sportswashing Machine the crowd will start to turn against Conte in a big way.

 

[billyiddo]

If we perform like that against Saudi Sportswashing Outfit the crowd will start to turn against Conte in a big way.

Nah he was still have his name sung during the first 45 against Everton and last night in the away end so he has plenty of leeway with the support atm

 

[DubSpur]

It is easy to blame the midfield for the passing but it misses the crux of the problem IMO and that is that there was rarely a ball on for them that wasn’t very dangerous to play…. We were compressed into our own third with Kane and Son central facing their own goal. Vertical passes into man marked players in central positions create the most dangerous turnover transitions.

The midfield did not even have the full backs high up to pass to as Dalot and Shaw had them pinned due to Man Utd’s high position on the pitch.

The best thing to have done would’ve been leave Son high up top and go over the top a few times, I think that would’ve caused Man Utd to drop off a little and open up some space between Man Utd’s defence and midfield that Kane could’ve operated in. Or at the very least caused Man Utd to drop another midfielder in a little deeper and making their press less effective.

We were compressed deep into our own half because the midfield stood off their midfield even when at the edge of our own box.
This gave the Utd midfield all the time in the world and also forced our defenders to drop into our own box. This combined with our lack of passing from midfield was the issue.
Press their midfield earlier and it means when we win the ball back it isn't around our box with nowhere to go. Midfield was shocking in all aspects yesterday.

 

[Finney Is Back]

Questions were asked in the summer as to why we didn’t buy a creative midfielder. It’s a gaping hole in our team, so why with a Director of Football, increased transfer spending available (the £150m) and an ambitious manager who wanted ro spend did we not fill that void.

Because the manager doesn’t really want to play the system that accommodates one IMO.

 

[glasgowspur]

Because the manager doesn’t really want to play the system that accommodates one IMO.

Its easy to forget in the anger of games like last night that we are still a team in transition.
We are nowhere near where we want to be.

 

[Finney Is Back]

We were compressed deep into our own half because the midfield stood off their midfield even when at the edge of our own box.
This gave the Utd midfield all the time in the world and also forced our defenders to drop into our own box. This combined with our lack of passing from midfield was the issue.
Press their midfield earlier and it means when we win the ball back it isn't around our box with nowhere to go. Midfield was shocking in all aspects yesterday.

Again, I think you misunderstand somewhat. You’re looking at outcome rather than causation. You can’t start pressing just outside your own penalty area, it is suicide. Once the opposition are in your third with numbers you can only really try to ensure they can’t get a ball into a player in space in the box….. Drop off, compress the space into the danger area and try to force the opposition to have to put in crosses or take shots from outside the box that are generally low percentage chances.

I agree re: pressing them earlier, but that has to happen MUCH earlier, right from the ball out from their keeper and with us effectively playing 4 out and out defensive central players (maybe even more with PEH and Bentancur as well) we were never likely to mount a successful press. The three that we play at the back mean we are outnumbered unless one of them really steps up, none of them did.

Same with ‘lack of passing from midfield’. Who were they going to pass to? They were deep, being pressed, had our wingbacks who were often deeper than our midfielder on the ball and only Son and Kane ahead of them, both central, closely marked and facing their own goal, which is an incredibly dangerous pass to make due to the transition it creates on the 80%+ of occasions that those type of passes are turned over.

Our midfield could do little yesterday, the manager needed to get Spurs higher up the pitch, either just via our players’ starting positions when De Gea had the ball or by going long over the top from our CBs to give them something to think about, or by leaving Son high and wide so that Man Utd had to keep a fullback deep, or by leaving one of the wing backs high up the pitch to do the same or ensure we had a free man.

 

[90291Spur]

If we perform like that against Saudi Sportswashing Outfit the crowd will start to turn against Conte in a big way.

And if they do, they will confirm their lack of understanding of the game of football. We have lost two games this season, and conte got us CL last season. Yes, the football is not swashbuckling and dynamic. But we’ve had that with folk like redknapp and poch and won nothing. I hope the ‘fans’ show some patience and perhaps even a basic understanding of human psychology and ENCOURAGE the team.

 

[glasgowspur]

Again, I think you misunderstand somewhat. You’re looking at outcome rather than causation. You can’t start pressing just outside your own penalty area, it is suicide. Once the opposition are in your third with numbers you can only really try to ensure they can’t get a ball into a player in space in the box….. Drop off, compress the space into the danger area and try to force the opposition to have to put in crosses or take shots from outside the box that are generally low percentage chances.

I agree re: pressing them earlier, but that has to happen MUCH earlier, right from the ball out from their keeper and with us effectively playing 4 out and out defensive central players (maybe even more with PEH and Bentancur as well) we were never likely to mount a successful press. The three that we play at the back mean we are outnumbered unless one of them really steps up, none of them did.

Same with ‘lack of passing from midfield’. Who were they going to pass to? They had our wingbacks who were often deeper than our midfielder on the ball and Son and Kane both central, closely marked and facing their own goal, which is an incredibly dangerous pass to make due to the transition it creates on the 80%+ of occasions that those type of passes are turned over.

Our midfield could do little yesterday, the manager needed to get Spurs higher up the pitch, either just via our players’ starting positions when De Gea had the ball or by going long over the top from our CBs to give them something to think about, or by leaving Son high and wide so that Man Utd had to keep a fullback deep, or by leaving one of the wing backs high up the pitch to do the same or ensure we had a free man.

I thought son and kane pressed quite well for about the first 15 minutes, but nobody followed it up.
Unlike against everton where Bentancur went with and sometimes past them.
De gea, Evertons whinging keeper and the stutgart keeper all looked terrible with the ball at their feet and i don't think we pressed them enough.
Teams pick on our weaknesses, why can't we.

 

[Finney Is Back]

I thought son and kane pressed quite well for about the first 15 minutes, but nobody followed it up.
Unlike against everton where Bentancur went with and sometimes past them.
De gea, Evertons whinging keeper and the stutgart keeper all looked terrible with the ball at their feet and i don't think we pressed them enough.
Teams pick on our weaknesses, why can't we.

Because our manager doesn’t set us up to press. A two man press isn’t going to do anything other than knacker out the two men who are doing the pressing.

 

[DubSpur]

Again, I think you misunderstand somewhat. You’re looking at outcome rather than causation. You can’t start pressing just outside your own penalty area, it is suicide. Once the opposition are in your third with numbers you can only really try to ensure they can’t get a ball into a player in space in the box….. Drop off, compress the space into the danger area and try to force the opposition to have to put in crosses or take shots from outside the box that are generally low percentage chances.

I think it's you that misunderstand. You don't stand off players around 25 yards out from your goal. You close them. If you don't you give them time to line up a shot. If they're closed and hurried they will most likely miss the target or get blocked. If you stand off and give them time to line up the shot they are much more likely to hit the target and score or at the very least make a good pass that increases the pressure on the defence.

Same with ‘lack of passing from midfield’. Who were they going to pass to? They were deep, being pressed, had our wingbacks who were often deeper than our midfielder on the ball and only Son and Kane ahead of them, both central, closely marked and facing their own goal, which is an incredibly dangerous pass to make due to the transition it creates on the 80%+ of occasions that those type of passes are turned over.

They were deep because midfield kept dropping off and not closing opponents down around our box. It caused all players to drop off. If the wingbacks hadn't dropped when everyone else dropped we would have got destroyed down the wings. It doesn't have to be a full on press, just close players down and not invite them to shoot or pass. Try and win the ball before it gets into our box.

 

[billyiddo]

I think there's a difference between tactically pressing, which Finney is talking about and just plain old closing down that Dub is referring to - we aren’t going to play a pressing game but that doesn't mean we should be standing off players the way we did last night

 

[papaspur]

Again, I think you misunderstand somewhat. You’re looking at outcome rather than causation. You can’t start pressing just outside your own penalty area, it is suicide. Once the opposition are in your third with numbers you can only really try to ensure they can’t get a ball into a player in space in the box….. Drop off, compress the space into the danger area and try to force the opposition to have to put in crosses or take shots from outside the box that are generally low percentage chances.

I agree re: pressing them earlier, but that has to happen MUCH earlier, right from the ball out from their keeper and with us effectively playing 4 out and out defensive central players (maybe even more with PEH and Bentancur as well) we were never likely to mount a successful press. The three that we play at the back mean we are outnumbered unless one of them really steps up, none of them did.

Same with ‘lack of passing from midfield’. Who were they going to pass to? They were deep, being pressed, had our wingbacks who were often deeper than our midfielder on the ball and only Son and Kane ahead of them, both central, closely marked and facing their own goal, which is an incredibly dangerous pass to make due to the transition it creates on the 80%+ of occasions that those type of passes are turned over.

Our midfield could do little yesterday, the manager needed to get Spurs higher up the pitch, either just via our players’ starting positions when De Gea had the ball or by going long over the top from our CBs to give them something to think about, or by leaving Son high and wide so that Man Utd had to keep a fullback deep, or by leaving one of the wing backs high up the pitch to do the same or ensure we had a free man.

I completely disagree with the bolded part. Our midfielders should not be sitting passively in our own box while the other team's players are moving the ball freely right outside the box. That's why we have 3 central defenders. With 3 midfielders, maybe 1 of them can drop deeper into the box if the opposition floods it. What you describe is exactly how we were punished against Arsenal for their first goal: give them time and space right outside our box and eventually, one of those chances will go in. We made a few decent interceptions when balls were being played into our box, but not enough. It's not that the midfield should get all the blame but there are too many loose passes from the team in general, and the midfielders need to be able to connect passes at a bare minimum. Doherty wasn't that great yesterday in terms of his passing so there was hardly any connection between our defenders playing it out from the back and our forwards, who were also sitting quite deep at times (although a bit understandable when they had a few simultaneous corners, but I agree with you and others that Son should be an outlet).

I think the "crux of the issue" is that maybe our central defenders aren't as good as we need them to be in order to challenge for the title or any major silverware. I'm not saying Dier and Davies are bad... they're good, solid players but it's not like they're on Varane's level. They still fight for the shirt though so I don't want to get on anyone's back really, I'm just trying to say what is objectively true.

As for what we do when we are in possession, it seems that our midfielders lack the vision and passing range to move the ball vertically when under pressure, which is almost always. Their control and dribbling is decent but there were too many times where the players lost the ball too easily due to a loose touch/poor control. Maybe there needs to be more discipline with a three-man midfield regarding their positioning, but they shouldn't have many issues moving the ball up the field especially if one of the LCB or RCB pushes up to support them a bit. That is why some fans have been asking for playing three midfielders, right? To give ourselves more options in the build up on offense and to be a bit more secure and win second balls when out of possession. I do agree with you about their positioning and pressing higher up in general.

So perhaps the midfielders need more time to learn each other's tendencies, and I still don't think being harsh on Bissouma is fair since that was maybe his 3rd start? I think he needs some time, and as I said in my earlier post, PEH and Bentancur must be exhausted.

I think if PEH does less pointing, he and our team play better (I'm half-joking here, but wondering if anyone else has anything to say about that). I just think he needs to have a more workman-like attitude instead of seeing himself as some star player. If we had a player who could play midfield with good passing and decent defensive abilities and positioning, PEH won't be starting anymore.

 

[parklane1]

Its easy to forget in the anger of games like last night that we are still a team in transition.
We are nowhere near where we want to be.

And if they do, they will confirm their lack of understanding of the game of football. We have lost two games this season, and conte got us CL last season. Yes, the football is not swashbuckling and dynamic. But we’ve had that with folk like redknapp and poch and won nothing. I hope the ‘fans’ show some patience and perhaps even a basic understanding of human psychology and ENCOURAGE the team.

Thank GHod for two posts that show more sense then just slagging certain players and manager because they can not see that it takes managers time and he has not been here a year yet. Nobody is more tinkled off then me losing yet ANOTHER game against the side i dislike more then any other side.

I depair at the attitude of some fans in todays game.

 

[90291Spur]

I think the "crux of the issue" is that maybe our central defenders aren't as good as we need them to be in order to challenge for the title or any major silverware. I'm not saying Dier and Davies are bad... they're good, solid players but it's not like they're on Varane's level. They still fight for the shirt though so I don't want to get on anyone's back really, I'm just trying to say what is objectively true.

How do you think Dier and Davies are holding us back? To my mind (not the best tactical mind), the issues we are facing are more complex than that, and lean into the general shape and tactics. Dier was certainly a major part of the reason for Frankfurt's goal, but I haven't seen these two consistently cause us to lose games with their lack of greatness. Letting teams have possession around our box and have low xG scoring opportunities seems more the problem (allied with a lack of cutting edge up front, despite Kane scoring a lot in the league), as we've seen two key instances where good opportunities have score (Are and Manure).

I'm genuinely interest in what you think Dier and Davies are at fault for in a larger sense.

 

[papaspur]

How do you think Dier and Davies are holding us back? To my mind (not the best tactical mind), the issues we are facing are more complex than that, and lean into the general shape and tactics. Dier was certainly a major part of the reason for Frankfurt's goal, but I haven't seen these two consistently cause us to lose games with their lack of greatness. Letting teams have possession around our box and have low xG scoring opportunities seems more the problem (allied with a lack of cutting edge up front, despite Kane scoring a lot in the league), as we've seen two key instances where good opportunities have score (Are and Manure).

I'm genuinely interest in what you think Dier and Davies are at fault for in a larger sense.

It's not just them, maybe half our squad are basically solid mid-table players. And once again, I want to repeat that mid-table players aren't bad by any means. Every squad needs a few anyway so it's not like I think we should sell Dier or Davies. Basically, we need the other CBs to be on the same level as Romero (not same type of player, but at the same skill level for their roles). Same thing goes for Royal, Doherty, PEH (Sess is still too young IMO to make any definitive judgment yet). TBF to Dier, he has had to start many games like our CMs so must be pretty fatigued.

Sure, our shape and tactics are a problem at times which is why I initially stated that I'm not trying to throw Dier and Davies under the bus; others didn't perform well either last night but I was specifically addressing the point about why our midfielders were dropping so deep, even with three of them.

 

[Finney Is Back]

[

I think it's you that misunderstand. You don't stand off players around 25 yards out from your goal. You close them. If you don't you give them time to line up a shot. If they're closed and hurried they will most likely miss the target or get blocked. If you stand off and give them time to line up the shot they are much more likely to hit the target and score or at the very least make a good pass that increases the pressure on the defence.


They were deep because midfield kept dropping off and not closing opponents down around our box. It caused all players to drop off. If the wingbacks hadn't dropped when everyone else dropped we would have got destroyed down the wings. It doesn't have to be a full on press, just close players down and not invite them to shoot or pass. Try and win the ball before it gets into our box.

It’s a vicious circle. The midfield have to take deep positions because the 3 CBs are so deep.our CMs not dropping in would leave really valuable space in front of our back 3. If you look at both Man Utd goals last night they haven’t really come about from us camping deep and Man Utd keeping the ball and working a shot. They have actually come about from Man Utd breaking quickly, getting numerous players into our box and thus creating space on the edge of the box by committing those men into the box and also being brave enough to get another bill or 2 players forward supporting the break. I don’t think we even once committed as many as 5 men to an open play attack last night.

 

[Finney Is Back]

How do you think Dier and Davies are holding us back? To my mind (not the best tactical mind), the issues we are facing are more complex than that, and lean into the general shape and tactics. Dier was certainly a major part of the reason for Frankfurt's goal, but I haven't seen these two consistently cause us to lose games with their lack of greatness. Letting teams have possession around our box and have low xG scoring opportunities seems more the problem (allied with a lack of cutting edge up front, despite Kane scoring a lot in the league), as we've seen two key instances where good opportunities have score (Are and Manure).

I'm genuinely interest in what you think Dier and Davies are at fault for in a larger sense.

My thoughts are that pretty much all of our CBS (jury out on Romero and Lenglet) are not good enough to play as part of a 2. We therefore cover that weakness by playing a 3. It is quite easy to defend the centre when playing as a 3, especially when the wingbacks also tend to do more defending than attacking.
Playing a 3 though leaves you understaffed in a creative, attacking sense, you can probably get away with it if all three of your defenders are very good on the ball and can pass quickly and accurately, I don’t think all 3 of ours do unfortunately.