Will Lankshear

[braineclipse]

We've had this 'why doesn't he just play the kids?' thing going since forever, under every manager. And there lies the clue. Every manager. That ought to tell something, unless people think Jol, Redknapp, Villas Boas, Poch, Mourinho, Conte and Ange are all totally clueless.

There are different "play the kids" arguments though.

I don't think playing Lankshear would have made much of a positive impact on our results in recent weeks/months in itself.

Though I also don't think it would have made much of a negative impact on our results, we've lost most games anyway.

If he had gotten some of that game time maybe some of the others wouldn't be as fatigued. Maybe that could have impacted our results positively in other games.

 

[Kandi1977]

There are different "play the kids" arguments though.

I don't think playing Lankshear would have made much of a positive impact on our results in recent weeks/months in itself.

Though I also don't think it would have made much of a negative impact on our results, we've lost most games anyway.

If he had gotten some of that game time maybe some of the others wouldn't be as fatigued. Maybe that could have impacted our results positively in other games.

I agree with that. Other players could have benefited, but some seem to think that just bringing on the kids would solve all our problems, and be game changers. There is probably a reason why these experienced managers rarely do it.

 

[Lemonade Money]

There are different "play the kids" arguments though.

I don't think playing Lankshear would have made much of a positive impact on our results in recent weeks/months in itself.

Though I also don't think it would have made much of a negative impact on our results, we've lost most games anyway.

If he had gotten some of that game time maybe some of the others wouldn't be as fatigued. Maybe that could have impacted our results positively in other games.

This for me. It seems like we flogged the first XI, then when they broke, we went on to the second XI, and now they're broke, we are scratching around with out of favour/out of position/youth. If we had started with a rotation of the first and second XI (even if he didnt fancy certain players, and maybe even to the detriment of initial results), they wouldn't be fatigued, wouldn't have broke, and we wouldn't be scratching around for fit bodies. I can't see this getting better this season, so it's a limp to the line, and then with some more additions in the summer, hopefully Ange has learnt his lesson. We will know by next Christmas if he has.

 

[Finney Is Back]

But the issue was that it is as much about giving the likes of Solanke a much-needed rest as well..

Again, not convinced it really matters too much when the intensity in the game had dropped so low.

 

[Finney Is Back]

We've had this 'why doesn't he just play the kids?' thing going since forever, under every manager. And there lies the clue. Every manager. That ought to tell something, unless people think Jol, Redknapp, Villas Boas, Poch, Mourinho, Conte and Ange are all totally clueless.

It typically comes from people who have never really been in the game. You'll see the likes of @parklane1 for example who has actually professionally coached young players and he gives his word of caution about the massive difference between youth and mens' football.

We've got two kids starting for us already in Bergval and Gray. We've got another kid playing lots of minutes in Moore. We've also got a goalkeeper who is still a kid in goalkeeping terms. I think the team we have been playing this season has the youngest average age in the PL.

Ange has had no problem putting in young players. Having watched Lankshear (even for the youths) he still has real glaring weaknesses in his game. I'm not convinced we are in any position right now for him to be working on those weaknesses in our first team. A loan will be good for the player, though I think it will have to be at a lower level than Championship (as I don't think he would be likely to go and start for any teams at that level - which gives an indication that he isn't close to being ready for PL football.

 

[Finney Is Back]

This for me. It seems like we flogged the first XI, then when they broke, we went on to the second XI, and now they're broke, we are scratching around with out of favour/out of position/youth. If we had started with a rotation of the first and second XI (even if he didnt fancy certain players, and maybe even to the detriment of initial results), they wouldn't be fatigued, wouldn't have broke, and we wouldn't be scratching around for fit bodies. I can't see this getting better this season, so it's a limp to the line, and then with some more additions in the summer, hopefully Ange has learnt his lesson. We will know by next Christmas if he has.

He pretty much did didn't he? I can remember rotation happening in both Europa and League Cup (and seeing a fair amount of criticism of the manager for rotating instead of taking those competitions seriously)

 

[afsoc4life]

He pretty much did didn't he? I can remember rotation happening in both Europa and League Cup (and seeing a fair amount of criticism of the manager for rotating instead of taking those competitions seriously)

I can recall this as well.

 

[Kandi1977]

It typically comes from people who have never really been in the game. You'll see the likes of @parklane1 for example who has actually professionally coached young players and he gives his word of caution about the massive difference between youth and mens' football.

We've got two kids starting for us already in Bergval and Gray. We've got another kid playing lots of minutes in Moore. We've also got a goalkeeper who is still a kid in goalkeeping terms. I think the team we have been playing this season has the youngest average age in the PL.

Ange has had no problem putting in young players. Having watched Lankshear (even for the youths) he still has real glaring weaknesses in his game. I'm not convinced we are in any position right now for him to be working on those weaknesses in our first team. A loan will be good for the player, though I think it will have to be at a lower level than Championship (as I don't think he would be likely to go and start for any teams at that level - which gives an indication that he isn't close to being ready for PL football.

It works the same way at every level. My local team has a development team, with some very good young players that absolutely smashes it in their games, but put them in the 1st team, at 3rd tier, all but the very very best of them, completely fall through and can't cope with the tempo and physicality of that level.

 

[Finney Is Back]

It works the same way at every level. My local team has a development team, with some very good young players that absolutely smashes it in their games, but put them in the 1st team, at 3rd tier, all but the very very best of them, completely fall through and can't cope with the tempo and physicality of that level.

I made a post somewhere (can't remember which thread) reasonably recently about my experience going from top division youth/reserve level to semi pro at about 18 years old. I was more than comfortable in the former but took months to adjust to the latter and had a whole bunch of poor performances while adjusting.

 

[parklane1]

He pretty much did didn't he? I can remember rotation happening in both Europa and League Cup (and seeing a fair amount of criticism of the manager for rotating instead of taking those competitions seriously)

Indeed and in all honesty i was one of them who did so.

 

[Muttley]

This for me. It seems like we flogged the first XI, then when they broke, we went on to the second XI, and now they're broke, we are scratching around with out of favour/out of position/youth. If we had started with a rotation of the first and second XI (even if he didnt fancy certain players, and maybe even to the detriment of initial results), they wouldn't be fatigued, wouldn't have broke, and we wouldn't be scratching around for fit bodies. I can't see this getting better this season, so it's a limp to the line, and then with some more additions in the summer, hopefully Ange has learnt his lesson. We will know by next Christmas if he has.

The 2 other factors for me are use of the subs bench and the training regime.

The subs bench thing is visible to us and we've pretty much proven that Ange isn't fully leveraging it. Whether you call them first or second teamers, they are being left in the red zone whilst fresh players don't get on the pitch. Lankshear is a victim of his manager not giving him 5 or 10 mins.

Then there is training. Just because Ange rotated in EL earlier this season, doesn't automatically translate to those players getting rest. For all we know they might just be straight back into a different conditioning routine at the training ground. We saw Spurs players last season being leggy having an entire week off. We saw multiple injuries that didn't occur on the pitch. Lots of debates about the training methods of Ange.

There is no smoke without fire on this entire equation. Something is definitely sub-optimal in the setup.

 

[Finney Is Back]

The 2 other factors for me are use of the subs bench and the training regime.

The subs bench thing is visible to us and we've pretty much proven that Ange isn't fully leveraging it. Whether you call them first or second teamers, they are being left in the red zone whilst fresh players don't get on the pitch. Lankshear is a victim of his manager not giving him 5 or 10 mins.

Then there is training. Just because Ange rotated in EL earlier this season, doesn't automatically translate to those players getting rest. For all we know they might just be straight back into a different conditioning routine at the training ground. We saw Spurs players last season being leggy having an entire week off. We saw multiple injuries that didn't occur on the pitch. Lots of debates about the training methods of Ange.

There is no smoke without fire on this entire equation. Something is definitely sub-optimal in the setup.

You have absolutely no idea of the training regime at Spurs.

 

[Muttley]

You have absolutely no idea of the training regime at Spurs.

I genuinely don't no. Well, only what we all read when a new manager comes in. Shorter but more intense was one thing I heard. Training at the intensity of the match day situation was another.

I did notice Ali Gold say that they had to change it very recently to incorporate what was happening. More recuperation days and one would assume adapted training sessions.

My conclusion is that this isn't just all rotten luck. As I said above, something is sub-optimal in the club setup. It feels like there's definitely something perpetual about it though once you get into the cycle. That's just the equation of doing the same with less. In fact it was probably more with less once the Dec / Jan cycles started.

 

[Lemonade Money]

He pretty much did didn't he? I can remember rotation happening in both Europa and League Cup (and seeing a fair amount of criticism of the manager for rotating instead of taking those competitions seriously)

If you go back and look, not that much actually, and a lot of it injury related. I'm not talking about wholesale rotation for cups anyway. I'm talking about in the league, Dragusin and Davies rotated with Romero and VdV to manage minutes, Spence and Reguilon/Gray rotated with Porro and Udogie, and likewise other areas - even if it's the last 30 minutes etc. We didn't see these players used until the first choice were broken.

 

[Muttley]

If you go back and look, not that much actually, and a lot of it injury related. I'm not talking about wholesale rotation for cups anyway. I'm talking about in the league, Dragusin and Davies rotated with Romero and VdV to manage minutes, Spence and Reguilon/Gray rotated with Porro and Udogie, and likewise other areas - even if it's the last 30 minutes etc. We didn't see these players used until the first choice were broken.

I think you are right. There was never a Dragusin / VDV pairing in the league. There was never a rest day for Porro with Spence or Gray getting the nod. Udogie wasn't even fully fit at the start of the season and got fit by playing every game. No Spence or Reggie in the EL squad, with Reggie just the invisible man until crisis point. I can imagine we were trying to get one towards the end of the transfer window. Ultimately, then the first teamers get pulled into EL and EFL cup duties and the strain builds. Udogie started 2 ELs and 1 EFL game and was a used sub in two other.

We probably went into the season one defender short to be fair. Used correctly that player could make a huge difference to the freshness of other players.

 

[Jordinho]

I think you are right. There was never a Dragusin / VDV pairing in the league. There was never a rest day for Porro with Spence or Gray getting the nod. Udogie wasn't even fully fit at the start of the season and got fit by playing every game. No Spence or Reggie in the EL squad, with Reggie just the invisible man until crisis point. I can imagine we were trying to get one towards the end of the transfer window. Ultimately, then the first teamers get pulled into EL and EFL cup duties and the strain builds. Udogie started 2 ELs and 1 EFL game and was a used sub in two other.

We probably went into the season one defender short to be fair. Used correctly that player could make a huge difference to the freshness of other players.

Not sure there would be much point. He's only using the squad players we have because of injuries. How many players can you have that realistically will only get a chance in early cup rounds or when there's an injury crisis?

 

[Bullet]

I made a post somewhere (can't remember which thread) reasonably recently about my experience going from top division youth/reserve level to semi pro at about 18 years old. I was more than comfortable in the former but took months to adjust to the latter and had a whole bunch of poor performances while adjusting.

Yes, you get poor performances AND that is what we are getting from Son et al anyway because they are knackered.
I would rather see Lankshear put in a poor performance for 45 whilst getting experience and using his youthful legs and saving the legs of Johnson/Son/Solanke etc.

Option1
Son & Solanke & Johnson play 90 mins in every game and are utterly exhausted and playing crap so their output is meh.

Option 2
Those guys play 45 at a really high level and we also 'suffer' 45 mins from the kids whose output is meh.

You see, Option 2 is better, net.

 

[Muttley]

Not sure there would be much point. He's only using the squad players we have because of injuries. How many players can you have that realistically will only get a chance in early cup rounds or when there's an injury crisis?

I'll give you a couple of names. Hincapie, Calafiori. That was the profile we were looking for. Firstly, they are too damn good to be excluded from the EL squad. Someone else makes way. Secondly, they are too good to not get PL time and can play 2 positions.

If we had Hincapie he would have come straight in for the VDV injury and would have already been rotating with Udogie in the league. VDV or Udogie could have been the one to rest on EL nights with Hincapie playing either LCB or LB. Even if the bigger injuries happen Hincapie then forms the partnership with Dragusin, and Gray gives us legs elsewhere. Porro is naturally rotated and Davies gets involved as well.

Such an easier formula, but you'd expect that for £50m right?