Victimpool FC - Klopp leaving, grown men crying

[90291Spur]

You're making way too much out of their league finish this season.
He took over part way through the season and clearly focused on the EL towards the end over the league. Kind of harsh to judge him based on that league finish?
They finished 2nd two seasons ago? That's the comparison you think is fair rather than comparing to last season when they finished 6th?
Also they were 3 points off 5th.

The job Klopp did at Mainz and Dortmund was outstanding. If he can transfer that to Liverpool and the PL is still unanswered of course, but he clearly has a lot more to him than just energy and positive thinking.

He has shown, twice, his ability to transform teams and to see how much better the Dippers played towards the end of the season suggests he can improve what he has. No doubt he will bring in a few players he wants and can possibly make them competitive again. I hope his rebuilding from Brenton takes longer but I fear they will be tough next season.

 

[braineclipse]

He has shown, twice, his ability to transform teams and to see how much better the Dippers played towards the end of the season suggests he can improve what he has. No doubt he will bring in a few players he wants and can possibly make them competitive again. I hope his rebuilding from Brenton takes longer but I fear they will be tough next season.

Agree fully. At their best in the second half of this season they were really good. Players that had talent, but had struggled started showing some real ability (Origi and Can spring to mind, but others too). They were inconsistent, but if they can gain some consistency through a pre-season and some good signings in the summer weeding out some of the more error prone first team players i think they can be very good next season.

That's nothing like blind faith.

 

[JPBB]

You're making way too much out of their league finish this season.
He took over part way through the season and clearly focused on the EL towards the end over the league. Kind of harsh to judge him based on that league finish?
They finished 2nd two seasons ago? That's the comparison you think is fair rather than comparing to last season when they finished 6th?
Also they were 3 points off 5th.

The job Klopp did at Mainz and Dortmund was outstanding. If he can transfer that to Liverpool and the PL is still unanswered of course, but he clearly has a lot more to him than just energy and positive thinking.

You are in the cult of Klopp. And maybe I could be persuaded to join in the future but for now this is what I see.

A charming man with good media skills
A decent track record but not as good as the managers of Emirates Marketing Project, Manchester United, Arsenal, Chelsea and Everton (if De Boer or Pellegrini joins)
Two very mediocre seasons in a row from Klopp's team
A club that season on season is slipping down the table.
Results which at best could be described as patchy (and reflected in their league position)
He did worse than Hodgson (6th) who had a much worse team

For me, he is not the Messiah but a potentially good premiership manager with much to prove in England. If the underlying trend in league positions for Liverpool over the last 8 years continues, it is quite possible he will finish behind Mourinho, Guardiola, Wenger, Conte, Pochettino, Bilic, Koeman, Ranieri and De Boer (if he joins).

And I, for one, think that this outcome is more likely than the glory you and others are predicting for Klopp and the self styled "greatest club in history".

As a side note, Pochettino should be under the same level of scrutiny given the frankly over the top praise that the media have heaped on him. I wonder how we will feel about Poch if our league position fails to match our raised expectations...

 

[braineclipse]

You are in the cult of Klopp. And maybe I could be persuaded to join in the future but for now this is what I see.

A charming man with good media skills
A decent track record but not as good as the managers of Emirates Marketing Project, Manchester United, Arsenal, Chelsea and Everton (if De Boer or Pellegrini joins)
Two very mediocre seasons in a row from Klopp's team
A club that season on season is slipping down the table.
Results which at best could be described as patchy (and reflected in their league position)
He did worse than Hodgson (6th) who had a much worse team

For me, he is not the Messiah but a potentially good premiership manager with much to prove in England. If the underlying trend in league positions for Liverpool over the last 8 years continues, it is quite possible he will finish behind Mourinho, Guardiola, Wenger, Conte, Pochettino, Bilic, Koeman, Ranieri and De Boer (if he joins).

And I, for one, think that this outcome is more likely than the glory you and others are predicting for Klopp and the self styled "greatest club in history".

As a side note, Pochettino should be under the same level of scrutiny given the frankly over the top praise that the media have heaped on him. I wonder how we will feel about Poch if our league position fails to match our raised expectations...

Accusing others of being in a cult because they disagree with you is not a great way to have a conversation.

What has De Boer or Pellegrini done that's more impressive than what Klopp did at Mainz and Dortmund exactly? Even Conte's results are not clearly better than Klopp's. And both with Mourinho and Wenger serious questions have been asked. Pep did brilliantly at Barca and well at Bayern, but at the kind of rebuilding job needed at City he's fairly untested.

8th, a EL final and patches of real quality football is acceptable when taking over a club like Liverpool part way through the season where they were then.

 

[JPBB]

Accusing others of being in a cult because they disagree with you is not a great way to have a conversation.

What has De Boer or Pellegrini done that's more impressive than what Klopp did at Mainz and Dortmund exactly? Even Conte's results are not clearly better than Klopp's. And both with Mourinho and Wenger serious questions have been asked. Pep did brilliantly at Barca and well at Bayern, but at the kind of rebuilding job needed at City he's fairly untested.

8th, a EL final and patches of real quality football is acceptable when taking over a club like Liverpool part way through the season where they were then.

I did not intend to offend you in anyway. I am not seriously suggesting that there is a real cult led by Klopp. Or indeed if there was, you would be a member. I am making a point that there is a lot of goodwill for Klopp from Liverpool fans (obviously), the media and football fans in general which I do not think is justified.

As for the your point about other managers. Firstly Klopp has been tested in the Premier league and he guided Liverpool to 8th. The last time Liverpool did worse was 1961. However, I agree he needs more time. As you say he has a good track record elsewhere and this is your justification for the prediction of great success for Liverpool. I would say the other managers you rather unfairly dismiss have better track records than Klopp's 2 titles and his last two poor seasons.

De Boer = 5 trophies including 4 titles
Pellegrini = 10 trophies including 4 titles
Conte = 6 trophies including 3 titles

You seem to concede that Mourinho, Guardiola and Wenger do have better track records but these are invalidated by your doubts about them.

I guess it is all about feelings not facts. And that is Klopp's currency.

Maybe you are right and Liverpool under Klopp are on the cusp of years of domination, I just don't see it. Sorry.

 

[braineclipse]

I did not intend to offend you in anyway. I am not seriously suggesting that there is a real cult led by Klopp. Or indeed if there was, you would be a member. I am making a point that there is a lot of goodwill for Klopp from Liverpool fans (obviously), the media and football fans in general which I do not think is justified.

As for the your point about other managers. Firstly Klopp has been tested in the Premier league and he guided Liverpool to 8th. The last time Liverpool did worse was 1961. However, I agree he needs more time. As you say he has a good track record elsewhere and this is your justification for the prediction of great success for Liverpool. I would say the other managers you rather unfairly dismiss have better track records than Klopp's 2 titles and his last two poor seasons.

De Boer = 5 trophies including 4 titles
Pellegrini = 10 trophies including 4 titles
Conte = 6 trophies including 3 titles

You seem to concede that Mourinho, Guardiola and Wenger do have better track records but these are invalidated by your doubts about them.

I guess it is all about feelings not facts. And that is Klopp's currency.

Maybe you are right and Liverpool under Klopp are on the cusp of years of domination, I just don't see it. Sorry.

It takes more to offend me. But I would rather have good conversations. There are better ways of having a conversation like this and hyperbolic name calling is often less than productive. Furthermore you seem to argue against me as if you really thought I was arguing from the same point as the most deluded Liverpool fans, as if you really believe the "cult of Klopp" comment to be accurate (though of course not to be taken literally, I'm obviously not claiming that you said there's a real cult led by Klopp, that's ridiculous).

I just don't get why you think part of a season taking over for a sacked manager warrants this much scrutiny. You come back to 1961 like this was some huge shock. But Liverpool have finished both 6th and 7th in recent years, 8th is not such a big drop. And, again, he (rightly) focused on the EL over the league. Some good (I would say excellent) football, 8th in the league and a cup final or two with real hope for next season. Offer that to Liverpool fans when Klopp took over and I think they would happily take it. You try to paint it as a failure of a season for Klopp, but it really wasn't.

Klopp took at Dortmund side that was stranded and had been stranded for some time, in financial difficulties and a long way off any title challenge or even regular CL football to two league titles, a CL final and a cup win. He put up a real challenge, and won, against Bayern despite losing some his best players year after year and having limited transfer funds.

De Boer winning the Dutch league with Holland, Pellegrini winning the league with City and Conte winning the league with Juventus does not compare favourably in my opinion. They've won the league with the biggest and richest clubs in those leagues. In the case of Pellegrini and Conte at least spending a lot of money in the process.

I'm not saying that the track record of Mourinho, Guardiola and Wenger is invalidated by my doubts about them. I'm saying that there are legitimate doubts about them, just like there are some legitimate doubts about Klopp. This nuance seems to pass you by.

I'm also not saying that Liverpool under Klopp are on the cusp of years of domination. This is a straw man putting words into my mouth, and again ignoring all nuance. I'm saying there's a good chance they'll be a real threat for a top 4 finish next season and could improve further beyond that. And I'm saying that the situation Liverpool find themselves in is comparable to the situation Dortmund were in when Klopp took over. He has experience working like this. Limited budget, formerly big club struggling, having to develop a style of play and players. This is more relevant than just "overall quality" of a manager. What experience does De Boer have that prepares him for life at Everton? Even with Guardiola's track record his experience isn't really working with a situation like that at City.

 

[jts1882]

Guardiola's challenge is an interesting one. He has managed at two huge clubs that had a defined culture. He could focus on the football side of things. City is a far broader challenge, as he has to build the culture, something he has no experience of doing. Perhaps he can bring the best of what he was learned about the other two systems, perhaps he will founder. That said he can get good players playing together as a team and, if City spend, that could be enough for success.

 

[JPBB]

Well. OK. Lets say this. You think Liverpool will improve under Klopp next season and finish in the top four, I think that Klopp is all smoke and mirrors and will not be able to reverse their decline.

And we agree that there is no formal cult with Klopp as the leader. haha

I hope i am right

 

[glorygloryeze]

So "a good chance they'll be a real threat for a top 4 finish" = "Liverpool will finish top four"?

 

[JPBB]

So "a good chance they'll be a real threat for a top 4 finish" = "Liverpool will finish top four"?

OK. So let me get this right.

Klopp leads Liverpool to one of their worst finishes in a generation. It's not his fault. It's Rodgers fault. Or Leicester's, or Spurs', or West Ham's or Southampton's fault for finishing above their place in this World.

Nevertheless you tell me, the press tell me, and every Liverpool fan tells me he is a great manager and he will transform a club that has been decline for a decade.

And what should we expect from the Merseyside Messiah? "A good chance they'll be a real threat for a top 4 finish". And you know what. I agree with you. Perhaps you overstate it a little. But broadly i agree with you.

What is that? 5th? 6th? 8th?

So what I fail to understand if that is all he will do for them, why all the hype?

They should have stuck with Rodgers. He would have delivered that. And more.

 

[glorygloryeze]

OK. So let me get this right.

Klopp leads Liverpool to one of their worst finishes in a generation. It's not his fault. It's Rodgers fault. Or Leicester's, or Spurs', or West Ham's or Southampton's fault for finishing above their place in this World.

Nevertheless you tell me, the press tell me, and every Liverpool fan tells me he is a great manager and he will transform a club that has been decline for a decade.

And what should we expect from the Merseyside Messiah? "A good chance they'll be a real threat for a top 4 finish". And you know what. I agree with you. Perhaps you overstate it a little. But broadly i agree with you.

What is that? 5th? 6th? 8th?

So what I fail to understand if that is all he will do for them, why all the hype?

They should have stuck with Rodgers. He would have delivered that. And more.

Wow, you're a REAL Klopp-hater arent you? Even minor praise or any decently positive appraisal and you seem to get into convulsions.

I'm out

 

[Robspur12]

As a side note, Pochettino should be under the same level of scrutiny given the frankly over the top praise that the media have heaped on him. I wonder how we will feel about Poch if our league position fails to match our raised expectations...

You may have a point about the love fest for Klopp being slightly over the top given the expensive squad at his disposal, their patchy league form and final league placing in a league season when most of their rivals were having relatively poor seasons. I am in the camp of "wait and see" but he has definitely proved himself a very good coach elsewhere albeit only in one league.

Is it over the top praise for Poch though? When was the last time we had a manager who has built a very young side and had them challenging for the title? In doing so achieved the best goal difference in the league, our fewest defeats in the PL era and our highest league finish since the start of the premier league? Do you not think that Poch has done a great job so far? Better than we could have hoped for 2 seasons ago when he took over what looked like a dreadfully dysfunctional team? Compare us to Liverpool who have headed in the opposite direction? He is under scrutiny because he is doing so well. It's not the finished article as was shown in the way we finished the season but I would like to think Poch has bought himself a fair amount of goodwill from the supporters.

 

[JPBB]

You may have a point about the love fest for Klopp being slightly over the top given the expensive squad at his disposal, their patchy league form and final league placing in a league season when most of their rivals were having relatively poor seasons. I am in the camp of "wait and see" but he has definitely proved himself a very good coach elsewhere albeit only in one league.

Is it over the top praise for Poch though? When was the last time we had a manager who has built a very young side and had them challenging for the title? In doing so achieved the best goal difference in the league, our fewest defeats in the PL era and our highest league finish since the start of the premier league? Do you not think that Poch has done a great job so far? Better than we could have hoped for 2 seasons ago when he took over what looked like a dreadfully dysfunctional team? Compare us to Liverpool who have headed in the opposite direction? He is under scrutiny because he is doing so well. It's not the finished article as was shown in the way we finished the season but I would like to think Poch has bought himself a fair amount of goodwill from the supporters.

Yes. He has a built a team that we all feel proud of. Exceeding all but the most optimistic of our expectations. And we are right to praise him for that. However, some of the praise in the media particularly when discussing the Manchester United and Chelsea jobs and the possible Real Madrid job was over the top. Did it raise unrealistic expectations of what Poch is capable of? How will we feel if next season we finish 6th and don't get out of the group stages? Will we want him sacked in the same way the Liverpool fans hounded Rodgers out? I hope we have more class. I still hang my head in shame because of the way our club treated Jol.

 

[JPBB]

Wow, you're a REAL Klopp-hater arent you? Even minor praise or any decently positive appraisal and you seem to get into convulsions.

I'm out

I don't hate Klopp. He is a football manager. I hate Donald Trump.

He is obviously a good manager but so are Hodgson, Rodgers, Bilic, Koeman, De Boer, Pardew, and even Allardyce.

The hyperbole around him and how the media portray him as one of World football greats should be challenged. It is quite simply not true.

Also he is unbearably smug and perpetuates the Liverpool "the greatest club in history" lie.

 

[Baleforce]

I don't hate Klopp. He is a football manager. I hate Donald Trump.

He is obviously a good manager but so are Hodgson, Rodgers, Bilic, Koeman, De Boer, Pardew, and even Allardyce.

The hyperbole around him and how the media portray him as one of World football greats should be challenged. It is quite simply not true.

Also he is unbearably smug and perpetuates the Liverpool "the greatest club in history" lie.

 

[braineclipse]

I don't hate Klopp. He is a football manager. I hate Donald Trump.

He is obviously a good manager but so are Hodgson, Rodgers, Bilic, Koeman, De Boer, Pardew, and even Allardyce.

The hyperbole around him and how the media portray him as one of World football greats should be challenged. It is quite simply not true.

Also he is unbearably smug and perpetuates the Liverpool "the greatest club in history" lie.

He is rated that highly because of what he did in Germany. No doubt what he did there was extremely impressive. A lot more impressive than what any of those you mention in this post have done imo.

Do you remember how much of a nothingness Dortmund were for years before Klopp took over? He transformed that club, a club with the potential to be transformed for sure, but it was a huge change.

I genuinely think a couple of currently bigger clubs than Liverpool are scratching their heads wondering why they let Liverpool pick up Klopp. He is rightly ranked as one of the most exciting managers around of those that haven't been at the truly massive clubs (yet).

 

[JPBB]

I genuinely think a couple of currently bigger clubs than Liverpool are scratching their heads wondering why they let Liverpool pick up Klopp...

What? There are bigger clubs than Liverpool?

 

[JPBB]

He is rated that highly because of what he did in Germany. No doubt what he did there was extremely impressive. A lot more impressive than what any of those you mention in this post have done imo.

Do you remember how much of a nothingness Dortmund were for years before Klopp took over? He transformed that club, a club with the potential to be transformed for sure, but it was a huge change.

I genuinely think a couple of currently bigger clubs than Liverpool are scratching their heads wondering why they let Liverpool pick up Klopp. He is rightly ranked as one of the most exciting managers around of those that haven't been at the truly massive clubs (yet).

In one of my saner moments, I say this.

The jury is still out.

Maybe he is the new Clough. Or maybe he is the new Howard Wilkinson. Time will tell.

No one is questioning the hype around him. And someone should.

 

[braineclipse]

In one of my saner moments, I say this.

The jury is still out.

Maybe he is the new Clough. Or maybe he is the new Howard Wilkinson. Time will tell.

No one is questioning the hype around him. And someone should.

When do you think the hype started? Why do you think the hype started?

 

[Gazza Dazzla]

With no European football next season I fully expect Liverpool to be challenging for top 4, there's no excuse if they are not challenging really. In an already tough league you have 5 or 6 of their rivals playing mid week games and traveling etc. they have a huge advantage on that front.

My two pence worth is that I can't stand Klopp now, he comes across so smug and arrogant. I liked him before he came to England but a month or so in to being here he turned me right off him. Fantastic record in Germany and euro comps though, but the Prem next season is going to be something else (I worry a bit for ourselves in that regard).