VAR: Sponsored by Chelsea

[milo]

Arguing with the referee is very important physiologically. It's how you try and establish power over them. You are not arguing about the decision he has just made, you are influencing the next one he'll make.

Which is why I think that they should be booked.

 

[Baleforce]

you think that can be interpreted as Clear and Obvious? fair enough I will leave it there then.

if you notice something, it's clear and obvious, you can't un-see it

 

[r-u-s-x]

if you notice something, it's clear and obvious, you can't un-see it

sure - this will be used in the same way as Ungentlemanly conduct as a get out for any decision a ref wants then.

 

[Baleforce]

Arguing with the referee is very important physiologically. It's how you try and establish power over them. You are not arguing about the decision he has just made, you are influencing the next one he'll make.

which is why it should be an instant booking for anyone who tries it

 

[Grays_1890]

Maangers will tinkle and moan about anything that distracts the masses. If VAR persists eventually they simply wont be able to. Right now I believe Chelsea/Sarri are just trying to push and apply pressure, I dont think its a genuine complaint. They know they benefit in those intangible ways and would prefer it stays that way.

I hope you are right but I fear that if VAR is being used on subjective decisions and that decision is passed onto another human sat in a box managers will still find a reason to moan.

I dont think we will see a decrease in that side unfortunately

 

[parklane1]

@parklane1 youve gone a bit quiet mate

I have said my piece over this farce of VAR and all we are doing is going around in circles, its not needed ( imo) and its been shown to be just as fallible as the decisions made by refs. I understand that some folks think it is needed and some do not. As i ( and others) have said it seems nearly every country it has been used in are unhappy and even our own manager has said he does not like it.

For now i do not see ( or feel) the need to keep discussing the same thing over and over again, so i will leave you to it for now.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

On those two points, on the first I agree its a work in progress but it should not be in the top level of the game in this case, in my opinion. It still seems to me there are clear lines of use that are not yet agreed and until they are they should be testing this behind closed doors and in lesser events.

On the second point that part for people is a huge part of it all, like I mention in my post if you are not someone striving for perfection from the ref etc then you its going to be a HUGE frustration if your in stadium enjoyment is being sucked out the game.

I remember a game when the sytsem was used early on, think it was Chelsea and the confusion was so much in the stadium that there was a direct knock on to the atmosphere.

I would say the same happened this week at Spurs but in total I found it a odd atmosphere

100% agree with you. It is ridiculous they used a World Cup as a proving ground for a clearly hurried and poorly designed process, and continue to test it at the top end of the domestic game.

That is just fundamentally stupid. Like Hawkeye/goal line tech, as someone mentioned earlier, it should have been thoroughly developed before even being thought about tested in live games. And even then, not in such high profile ones.

The rest - it does sound to me a lot like a communication issue than actual VAR. Do you think if they had displayed the whole process up on the screens you would have felt the same?

I hope you are right but I fear that if VAR is being used on subjective decisions and that decision is passed onto another human sat in a box managers will still find a reason to moan.

I dont think we will see a decrease in that side unfortunately

Managers moan about anything that suits them, personally I find it pinch of salt stuff rather than having any substance.

If it wasnt VAR it would be the ref, the watering of the pitch, the sun setting and glaring in the keepers eyes...

...anything to deflect from the fact they lost.

For me its not really something to hold against VAR, rather its just the nature of the beast.

I have said my piece over this farce of VAR and all we are doing is going around in circles, its not needed ( imo) and its been shown to be just as fallible as the decisions made by refs. I understand that some folks think it is needed and some do not. As i ( and others) have said it seems nearly every country it has been used in are unhappy and even our own manager has said he does not like it.

For now i do not see ( or feel) the need to keep discussing the same thing over and over again, so i will leave you to it for now.

I asked for some examples, so we need not go round in circles. Raise tangible points we can discuss and it moves on.

Flop out with a wishy washy excuse and how does that look?

How has it been shown to be "just as fallible" as decisions made by refs? Surely by its very nature, while it isnt infallible the refs are given far more opportunity to make the right call?

 

[Spur of the moment]

Not you specifically, but after this round the only things I can see as tangible complaints are
1) I just dont like it, and
2) It was confusing/disconcerting/I didnt know what was going on and thats frustrating.

You make a lot of good points but one reason for some fan's not liking it that you seem to have missed here is that it robs them of that moment of exhilaration and abandonment immediately after a goal is scored.

Imo it is THIS that fans are really feeling sore about and even when the VAR eventually awards the goal, their delight has been punctured. By then it's already too late, their celebration is now comparatively muted and what was at first joy has now turned into mere relief.

 

[parklane1]

Flop out with a wishy washy excuse and how does that look?

?

Anyway you want it to look mate personally i care little, as i said earlier in the thread you are entrenched in you view as i am in mine. No point in repeating it over and over again.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

You make a lot of good points but one reason for some fan's not liking it that you seem to have missed here is that it robs them of that moment of exhilaration and abandonment immediately after a goal is scored.

Imo it is THIS that fans are really feeling sore about and even when the VAR eventually awards the goal, their delight has been punctured. By then it's already too late, their celebration is now comparatively muted and what was at first joy has now turned into mere relief.

Goals get disallowed now, thanks to the goal line tech as well as linesmans decisions - does that rob you of the enjoyment of celebrating a goal?

Do you wait the 3-4 seconds it takes to check all is well before cheering?

Not trying to be funny, or difficult - genuine question.

VAR was in play a few times against Chelsea, but only once (to my recollection) did it delay the game. Otherwise decisions were being made as play went on. Ultimately they sided with the ref so nobody noticed, I assume if they didnt play would have been called back?

I think a big part of the issue in these senses, is the fact its new. Its on everyones mind. Its a feature of the spectacle because of the novelty of it all.

And because its do's/dont's and general practice has been extremely poorly communicated. Who in the crowd really knows what its there for, when, how etc? Its just seen as some sort of over bearing force ready to pounce and interfere at any time.

Do you think after a season of VAR, after getting used to it, after games where its barely featured (for example) you would still have this feeling?

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

Anyway you want it to look mate personally i care little, as i said earlier in the thread you are entrenched in you view as i am in mine. No point in repeating it over and over again.

And as I said, aside from not being entrenched - Im offering a way for the conversation to move on. One you refuse to take. So I guess theres my answer. There are no examples and youre being an old grump

 

[Grays_1890]

Managers moan about anything that suits them, personally I find it pinch of salt stuff rather than having any substance.

If it wasnt VAR it would be the ref, the watering of the pitch, the sun setting and glaring in the keepers eyes...

...anything to deflect from the fact they lost.

For me its not really something to hold against VAR, rather its just the nature of the beast.

No of course it should not be held against VAR but it was in large part introduced to stop that rage from refs.

And this is where I conclude I am with it, like I say on a number of threads, the problem in all this is not the refs or the success rate of decisions its the attitude of managers and players that is the problem and if that side of the game was dealt with is a way where UEFA, FIFA and the FA were not so scared then there would be no real reason for VAR. Its a rage thing not a ref think thats the issue here and for me always has been.

 

[scaramanga]

Tell me how the below can be misinterpreted? - You say the right call was made about half the people I have spoken to are convinced it was just offside, what is clear is they didn't follow their own criteria.

http://www.thefa.com/football-rules-governance/lawsandrules/laws/football-11-11/law-5---the-referee


Video assistant referee (VAR)

The use of video assistant referees (VARS) is only permitted where the match/competition organiser has fulfilled all the VAR protocol and implementation requirements (as set out in the VAR Handbook) and has received written permission from The IFAB and FIFA.

The referee may be assisted by a video assistant referee (VAR) only in the event of a 'clear and obvious error' or 'serious missed incident' in relation to:

• goal/no goal
• penalty/no penalty
• direct red card (not second caution)
• mistaken identity when the referee cautions or sends off the wrong player of the offending team

The assistance from the video assistant referee (VAR) will relate to using replay(s) of the incident. The referee will make the final decision which may be based solely on the information from the VAR and/or the referee reviewing the replay footage directly ('on-field review').

Except for a 'serious missed incident' the referee (and where relevant other 'on-field', match officials) must always make a decision (including a decision not to penalise a potential offence); this decision does not change unless it is a 'clear and obvious error'.


My links were fine, there is no proof out there as yet as there has been no mass poll what it does show is there is discontent with VAR and how it is changing the flow / spontaneity of the game.

All incorrect offsides are "clear and obvious errors" because they're a binary decision. Just like whether or not the ball has crossed a line.

Where there isn't always a "clear and obvious error" is with decisions such as whether a tackle was reckless or whether handball should be given (seeing as referees all incorrectly apply that rule).

Offside is binary - any incorrect decision is clear and obvious to the VAR.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

No of course it should not be held against VAR but it was in large part introduced to stop that rage from refs.

And this is where I conclude I am with it, like I say on a number of threads, the problem in all this is not the refs or the success rate of decisions its the attitude of managers and players that is the problem and if that side of the game was dealt with is a way where UEFA, FIFA and the FA were not so scared then there would be no real reason for VAR. Its a rage thing not a ref think thats the issue here and for me always has been.

Which isnt an issue with VAR, but general conduct?

Which is fair enough. I think there should be much more discipline in the game, much more respect shown - both on and off the field. Id agree with you there whole heartedly.

In this particular instance, I really feel itll calm with time. Having seen the VAR process, there really isnt much to argue. If there is, its down to millimetres. After VAR is established and just the norm, I dont see it being raised as a point of contention in all honesty.

I am still pretty convinced Chelsea are just playing politics here, more than having a genuine grievance. As I said, they do enjoy that intangible benefit of being a big name club and being able to apply pressure to referees/refereeing. VAR basically (should) nullifies that, and I suspect this song and dance is much more about the bigger picture than the incident itself.

 

[Grays_1890]

Imo it is THIS that fans are really feeling sore about and even when the VAR eventually awards the goal, their delight has been punctured.

I do think thats a very fair statement, its a huge part of the game from a fans perspective and if that thats a hit its not going to be good for the sport. Enthusiam from fans seems to be dwindling.

 

[Baleforce]

No of course it should not be held against VAR but it was in large part introduced to stop that rage from refs.

And this is where I conclude I am with it, like I say on a number of threads, the problem in all this is not the refs or the success rate of decisions its the attitude of managers and players that is the problem and if that side of the game was dealt with is a way where UEFA, FIFA and the FA were not so scared then there would be no real reason for VAR. Its a rage thing not a ref think thats the issue here and for me always has been.

the clubs/players/managers are not impartial, they don't care about the integrity of the competition, their employment is tied directly to the success of their organisation, they have no incentive to accept refereeing mistakes, the authorities have to lead

 

[Grays_1890]

Which isnt an issue with VAR, but general conduct?

Correct which is why I believe is conduct was approached with the same emphasis as VAR is being persued then there would be no reason for VAR.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

All incorrect offsides are "clear and obvious errors" because they're a binary decision. Just like whether or not the ball has crossed a line.

Where there isn't always a "clear and obvious error" is with decisions such as whether a tackle was reckless or whether handball should be given (seeing as referees all incorrectly apply that rule).

Offside is binary - any incorrect decision is clear and obvious to the VAR.

I think r-u-s-x raises a good point - clearly in discussing this there is room for interpretation still.

What is clear and obvious to you, isnt to him.

Just as with the last pages of this thread, any communication around VAR is completely lacking.

I genuinely believe increased communication would smooth a huge amount of resistance out.
- Lets see the decision in action as it was shown on Sky, everyone knows whats happening
- Lets have a post match report/breakdown explaining decisions. Not least because then people will get a greater appreciation for the rules and their implementation
- Lets have an "idiots guide to VAR" tutorial, so people know what its for, when, and how it works.

I mean, seriously, there are so many gaps in the whole thing from a regular fans POV its embarrassing. Fill those gaps and I honestly think things will be enormously improved.

 

[Grays_1890]

the clubs/players/managers are not impartial, they don't care about the integrity of the competition, their employment is tied directly to the success of their organisation, they have no incentive to accept refereeing mistakes, the authorities have to lead

Refereeing decisions are not the real problem here. The real problem is the disproportionate attention devoted to discussing refereeing decisions. The number of actual injustices, as opposed to disagreements, is minuscule.

As I say people are the problem here. VAR is just another attempt to cope with and soothe the managers feelings of disempowerment and alienation. Rage demands VAR more than any meaningful search for objective truth.

The real answer is for people to calm down.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

Correct which is why I believe is conduct was approached with the same emphasis as VAR is being persued then there would be no reason for VAR.

I wonder if you are mixing issues here? I see them as quite seperate.

VAR, for me, is all about making sure the right decisions are made. Especially the key ones, the game changing ones, that are extremely difficult in regular circumstance.

Conduct is about discipline, its an entirely different thing. Annoyingly there are rules to combat it already, they are just not enforced. This is a whole other issue!

The only cross over, to my mind, is in taking some decisions away from the ref, making them a remote thing - takes the ability for players to argue with the ref away. Its not on him and doesnt achieve anything.