VAR: Sponsored by Chelsea

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

Apples and Pears mate, those things happen in games all the time. The point is VAR has been bought in to try and stop poor decisions and stop the frustrations and it has not done this.

Can you give examples?

What VAR decisions in this last round of games have been poor?

 

[r-u-s-x]

The big debate is some see the costs of VAR do not outweigh the benefits - not that there are no benefits.

I think if you are bringing new technology that is going to drastically change the game you should perfect it first (like they did with the Goal Line tech). We have the deepest league in the world, just do it in League two for a few seasons and then bring it in with the bugs ironed out. If this is the best they have then don't bother at all.

 

[parklane1]

no, I'm saying it's not an intention of VAR to stop debate, it's to aid the officials in making more accurate decisions

Well all i can say is that it has increased debate to the point where its more then it was about the usual moans and groans has it made for more correct decisions? to be honest i do not think the difference it has made on that score is worth all the farce its caused. I have heard different numbers from 1% to as many as 4% ( according to which side of the debate you are on ). As i have said we disagree no big deal.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

The idea that VAR should have been more thought through, designed and tested before implementation I completely agree with.

The WC in particular showed they were making it up as they went along with basic errors in execution that a simple bit of thought could have avoided.

Is it drastically changing the game though? As earlier, as it was executed this week I refute that its impacting the flow of the game, and otherwise its making sure the decisions made are more likely correct.

That in itself is a drastic change (for the better IMO), but "to the game"?

 

[r-u-s-x]

Can you give examples?

What VAR decisions in this last round of games have been poor?

Our Penalty should not have been given by the letter of VAR - it was given offside and it was not a clear and obvious mistake. VAR didn't work or they need to update the rules to get rid of clear and obvious.

 

[parklane1]

Can you give examples?

What VAR decisions in this last round of games have been poor?

To be honest mate what is the point, you are so entrenched in your view ( i admit i am the same) it will just go on for ever.

Poch was on the other day about how unliked it is in La Liga, i has a mate who lives in Germany and they do not like it over there either. It seems to me that the only folks who are benefitting from it are those who made the system and the army of " experts" who sit in a box miles from the game who are watching it.

 

[parklane1]

The big debate is some see the costs of VAR do not outweigh the benefits - not that there are no benefits.

I think if you are bringing new technology that is going to drastically change the game you should perfect it first (like they did with the Goal Line tech). We have the deepest league in the world, just do it in League two for a few seasons and then bring it in with the bugs ironed out. If this is the best they have then don't bother at all.

At last some sense on a situation which is causing so much unrest.

 

[r-u-s-x]

The idea that VAR should have been more thought through, designed and tested before implementation I completely agree with.

The WC in particular showed they were making it up as they went along with basic errors in execution that a simple bit of thought could have avoided.

Is it drastically changing the game though? As earlier, as it was executed this week I refute that its impacting the flow of the game, and otherwise its making sure the decisions made are more likely correct.

That in itself is a drastic change (for the better IMO), but "to the game"?

and you are getting lots of people telling you that it is changing the game. This was my opinion and all around me at the game.

There is a lot of opinion that it also negatively effect the spontainatity of football, drastically changing it.

https://www.dw.com/en/season-of-discontent-bundesliga-fan-protests-in-2017-18/a-43744926
https://www.dw.com/en/opinion-the-d...-sucks-the-emotion-out-of-football/a-42631617

 

[Grays_1890]

Its not English football fans - there have been protests in Germany over VAR, the Italians have largely turned on it and there has been loads of backlash in Spain (re Real Madrid last weekend).

Good article in the Times about it all. Germany are very anti it, more to than the other. Italy welcome it because ref calls are not forgotten in a day or two like here, its 30/40 years and death threats. Spain have countered it by saying to Refs (who are the ones opposed in part) like it or lump it.

 

[r-u-s-x]

Good article in the Times about it all. Germany are very anti it, more to than the other. Italy welcome it because ref calls are not forgotten in a day or two like here, its 30/40 years and death threats. Spain have countered it by saying to Refs (who are the ones opposed in part) like it or lump it.

I am only getting my opinion from podcasts and what I see in the news but I thought that there has always been issues in Italy due to the removing spontaneity and the belief the big calls go to the big teams still. James Richardson also mentioned that they went from over using it to now drastically under using it and this is also causing issues as it seems to be underused for the unfashionable teams and used to the benefit of the bigger.

Again the impression I have about Spain is they are resigned to using it rather than wanting it.

* I don't mind the Times football reporting / podcast but I do find them more than others to have their own views and ignore evidence to the contrary.

 

[Lemonade Money]

It's bloody obvious that a ref can't be expected to see everything, so he needs help. Do we give technology a try (a proper try), or carry on regardless?
People will moan about anything, the media will feed off anything, and Chelsea are just doing the usual tactic of putting pressure on the referee, so that the feeling in the second leg is that they are owed something.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

Our Penalty should not have been given by the letter of VAR - it was given offside and it was not a clear and obvious mistake. VAR didn't work or they need to update the rules to get rid of clear and obvious.

Cant honestly say I know the full ins and outs on the rules of VAR.

However, I can say with confidence the right decision was ultimately made. And, if it were not given on a technicality Id have been fuming.

It was a penalty. The penalty was given. IMHO impossible without VAR. So Im not sure I can argue against it on your basis.

To be honest mate what is the point, you are so entrenched in your view ( i admit i am the same) it will just go on for ever.

Poch was on the other day about how unliked it is in La Liga, i has a mate who lives in Germany and they do not like it over there either. It seems to me that the only folks who are benefitting from it are those who made the system and the army of " experts" who sit in a box miles from the game who are watching it.

Providing examples of the poor decisions you yourself state happened is not about my being entrenched in my view.

You said there are poor decisions, Id like to know which ones. Its a pretty evidence based approach rather than entrenchment.

I dont recall any, Id be interested to know of any I missed. That is the point.


Poch is a bit of a romantic and loves the faults in the game as much as anything else. I dont share that view but I can accept it.


This debate has been going on all day (not just with you) and as much as people say "So and so dont like it either" Im yet to actually get a "because..." that makes any tangible sense to me.

And thats not because Im blind to it. Im just not seeing what it is that has so many so riled up, and none are yet to actually offer a reason that resonates.

and you are getting lots of people telling you that it is changing the game. This was my opinion and all around me at the game.

There is a lot of opinion that it also negatively effect the spontainatity of football, drastically changing it.

https://www.dw.com/en/season-of-discontent-bundesliga-fan-protests-in-2017-18/a-43744926
https://www.dw.com/en/opinion-the-d...-sucks-the-emotion-out-of-football/a-42631617

The game was stopped, the penalty decision was made, the game carried on. Where is the lost spontanaity?

HOW is it changed, based on this weeks games? And are the negatives (if any) impossible to iron out - especially considering its a work in progress.

Genuinely - the Chelsea game - I saw no real difference to a regular game, and yet the most important call - the one that defined the result - was made correctly, and I genuinely doubt it would have been otherwise.

 

[r-u-s-x]

Cant honestly say I know the full ins and outs on the rules of VAR.

However, I can say with confidence the right decision was ultimately made. And, if it were not given on a technicality Id have been fuming.

It was a penalty. The penalty was given. IMHO impossible without VAR. So Im not sure I can argue against it on your basis.




Providing examples of the poor decisions you yourself state happened is not about my being entrenched in my view.

You said there are poor decisions, Id like to know which ones. Its a pretty evidence based approach rather than entrenchment.

I dont recall any, Id be interested to know of any I missed. That is the point.


Poch is a bit of a romantic and loves the faults in the game as much as anything else. I dont share that view but I can accept it.


This debate has been going on all day (not just with you) and as much as people say "So and so dont like it either" Im yet to actually get a "because..." that makes any tangible sense to me.

And thats not because Im blind to it. Im just not seeing what it is that has so many so riled up, and none are yet to actually offer a reason that resonates.




The game was stopped, the penalty decision was made, the game carried on. Where is the lost spontanaity?

HOW is it changed, based on this weeks games? And are the negatives (if any) impossible to iron out - especially considering its a work in progress.

Genuinely - the Chelsea game - I saw no real difference to a regular game, and yet the most important call - the one that defined the result - was made correctly, and I genuinely doubt it would have been otherwise.

Its not a technicality its the rules - either they are applied or get rid of them. Instead of you fuming its left the other half of the country who 1) know the rules or think it was offside fuming- its a bad use of VAR.

I have provided you links with the view it loses spontaneity this was separate to the Penalty call, this is a big part of the reason why people (no idea if its a majority) in Italy and Germany think its drastically changed going to football.

 

[Baleforce]

Its not a technicality its the rules - either they are applied or get rid of them

I think this sentence is a good counter point to the spontaneity argument.

 

[monkeybarry]

That would help those stood in the crowd at the games to understand what is happening yes, but will it stop the debate that seems to follow VAR decisions days after they are made?

Using that logic we should get rid of referee's although (a tempting thought, granted).
But actually getting rid of irrelevant punditry would be better. Everything in football has to be over analysed these days because it is the broadcasters business model.
Just because it is over debated, doesn't make the debate relevant.
That would also dissipate over time.

 

[glasgowspur]

Regardless of what happens, there will always be debate, if for no other reason than the press need it and will create it.
Controversy sells.
Technology for ref in some form is the future, may as well get used to it.

 

[Baleforce]

Regardless of what happens, there will always be debate, if for no other reason than the press need it and will create it.
Controversy sells.
Technology for ref in some form is the future, may as well get used to it.

The press are interested in narrative but the game needs to be officiated on numbers.

Reading the German opinion pieces I guess there is a split between those who value what actually happened and those who value what they like to think happened.

 

[Kandi1977]

Even IF that is the case ( and i am not sure it was) its not happening as their is just as much debate about the rights and wrong of the decisions that have been made. I relise you are sat firmly on the side of VAR ( and have been from the start) and that is fair enough. But for someone who has actually been in the crowd at these events ( where it has been used) its perfection and the anger building in the crowds ( about not knowing what the fudge is happening) is growing.

Most were against the passback rule when that was introduced, and it caused a lot of situations in the beginning (was it a backpass or not). You hardly ever see that now, because everyone has adapted. It will be the same with VAR. Almost nothing works flawlessly from the beginning.

 

[parklane1]

Most were against the passback rule when that was introduced, and it caused a lot of situations in the beginning (was it a backpass or not). You hardly ever see that now, because everyone has adapted. It will be the same with VAR. Almost nothing works flawlessly from the beginning.

That is no comparison between a change in a law that takes place on the pitch and the introduction of VAR, and for you to try and make a comparison is daft at best.

 

[parklane1]

Using that logic we should get rid of referee's although (a tempting thought, granted).
But actually getting rid of irrelevant punditry would be better. Everything in football has to be over analysed these days because it is the broadcasters business model.
Just because it is over debated, doesn't make the debate relevant.
That would also dissipate over time.

Well i do not disagree with your thoughts about broadcasters punditry at least.