VAR: Sponsored by Chelsea

[Baleforce]

I think r-u-s-x raises a good point - clearly in discussing this there is room for interpretation still.

What is clear and obvious to you, isnt to him.

Just as with the last pages of this thread, any communication around VAR is completely lacking.

I genuinely believe increased communication would smooth a huge amount of resistance out.
- Lets see the decision in action as it was shown on Sky, everyone knows whats happening
- Lets have a post match report/breakdown explaining decisions. Not least because then people will get a greater appreciation for the rules and their implementation
- Lets have an "idiots guide to VAR" tutorial, so people know what its for, when, and how it works.

I mean, seriously, there are so many gaps in the whole thing from a regular fans POV its embarrassing. Fill those gaps and I honestly think things will be enormously improved.

it's on the front page of the ifab website

 

[Baleforce]

Refereeing decisions are not the real problem here. The real problem is the disproportionate attention devoted to discussing refereeing decisions. The number of actual injustices, as opposed to disagreements, is minuscule.

As I say people are the problem here. VAR is just another attempt to cope with and soothe the managers feelings of disempowerment and alienation. Rage demands VAR more than any meaningful search for objective truth.

The real answer is for people to calm down.

none of that attention actually matters to "the game" though, VAR is an effort to increase decision accuracy during the match, which has real value to the game

the only people that want accurate decisions are the authorities, the fans and club staff want decisions that suit their side, the press want decisions they can discuss between advertising

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

it's on the front page of the ifab website

What is?

I dont even know what ifab is*. Let alone to look there for information.

And, ultimately, when a change so major is made to a sport effecting billions, should people really have to dig around for info?

It really should be provided, IMHO. And given to the populace in an easy to understand way.




*I just looked, embarrassing really

 

[r-u-s-x]

All incorrect offsides are "clear and obvious errors" because they're a binary decision. Just like whether or not the ball has crossed a line.

Where there isn't always a "clear and obvious error" is with decisions such as whether a tackle was reckless or whether handball should be given (seeing as referees all incorrectly apply that rule).

Offside is binary - any incorrect decision is clear and obvious to the VAR.

They are binary but our ability to judge them is not perfect so there are situations as per the Chelsea game where we are not equipped to make the binary decision correctly. If we were using the camera and judging by sight alone for the ball crossing the line the decision is binary but correct/ incorrect calls are not clear and obvious.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

They are binary but our ability to judge them is not perfect so there are situations as per the Chelsea game where we are not equipped to make the binary decision correctly. If we were using the camera and judging by sight alone for the ball crossing the line the decision is binary but correct/ incorrect calls are not clear and obvious.

Why was the Chelsea decision incorrect?

Are you arguing it shouldnt have gone to VAR, or that it was in fact offside?

 

[Baleforce]

What is?

I dont even know what ifab is*. Let alone to look there for information.

And, ultimately, when a change so major is made to a sport effecting billions, should people really have to dig around for info?

It really should be provided, IMHO. And given to the populace in an easy to understand way.




*I just looked, embarrassing really

where better to publish it than their own website?

you think the site is embarrassing?

 

[r-u-s-x]

Why was the Chelsea decision incorrect?

Are you arguing it shouldnt have gone to VAR, or that it was in fact offside?

Either decision is correct in that situation, we just don't know if its offside or not and do not have the technology to reliably tell us. What is clear is the decision has gone against their own guidelines / rules, where it is not clear and obvious go with the decision on the pitch.

 

[Spur of the moment]

Goals get disallowed now, thanks to the goal line tech as well as linesmans decisions - does that rob you of the enjoyment of celebrating a goal?

Do you wait the 3-4 seconds it takes to check all is well before cheering?

Not trying to be funny, or difficult - genuine question.

VAR was in play a few times against Chelsea, but only once (to my recollection) did it delay the game. Otherwise decisions were being made as play went on. Ultimately they sided with the ref so nobody noticed, I assume if they didnt play would have been called back?

I think a big part of the issue in these senses, is the fact its new. Its on everyones mind. Its a feature of the spectacle because of the novelty of it all.

And because its do's/dont's and general practice has been extremely poorly communicated. Who in the crowd really knows what its there for, when, how etc? Its just seen as some sort of over bearing force ready to pounce and interfere at any time.

Do you think after a season of VAR, after getting used to it, after games where its barely featured (for example) you would still have this feeling?

Maybe I can only speak for myself here but even after the goal against Chelsea was awarded I felt robbed because of the delay. You are right to say there are already other instances where you have to put your celebration on hold but I don't like those either and this is introducing yet another one.

From memory we scored six against Rochdale and I recall getting to the point where every time we scored a goal my first instinct was to hold back instead of letting rip, it got that ridiculous.

In truth I can see that overall the introduction of VARs makes very good sense on a practical basis and maybe in time I will learn to adjust and accept. But for me there's no getting away from the fact that that precious moment of spontaneous abandon after a goal is scored is being eroded ever more and will continue to be eroded progressively as time goes on.

That is something I deeply regret.

 

[r-u-s-x]

where better to publish it than their own website?

you think the site is embarrassing?

it was pretty prominent on the FA website when it first was released and published in most newspapers (so they FA did publicise it).

 

[Grays_1890]

The referee’s decision can only be changed if the video review shows a clear error

Does this include linos? Because a ref can't make an offside call so that call is that of the assistant. Many of them calls are not clear errors, I would say infact this weeks was not a clear error so by the book should VAR have even been allowed to come into the game?

Thats just going on whats on that website.

 

[Baleforce]

it was pretty prominent on the FA website when it first was released and published in most newspapers (so they FA did publicise it).

Indeed, I feel like I saw it a lot but I'm the sort of person who reads all of that.

Normal people I guess just go to the relevant authority website when updated rules are announced.

 

[Baleforce]

Maybe I can only speak for myself here but even after the goal against Chelsea was awarded I felt robbed because of the delay. You are right to say there are already other instances where you have to put your celebration on hold but I don't like those either and this is introducing yet another one.

From memory we scored six against Rochdale and I recall getting to the point where every time we scored a goal my first instinct was to hold back instead of letting rip, it got that ridiculous.

In truth I can see that overall the introduction of VARs makes very good sense on a practical basis and maybe in time I will learn to adjust and accept. But for me there's no getting away from the fact that that precious moment of spontaneous abandon after a goal is scored is being eroded ever more and will continue to be eroded progressively as time goes on.

That is something I deeply regret.

was there a delay between Kane's penalty crossing the line and the referee signalling goal, I didn't notice, but then I was probably celebrating?

 

[scaramanga]

They are binary but our ability to judge them is not perfect so there are situations as per the Chelsea game where we are not equipped to make the binary decision correctly. If we were using the camera and judging by sight alone for the ball crossing the line the decision is binary but correct/ incorrect calls are not clear and obvious.

If you work on the assumption VAR exists and is in use (as it was in this scenario), then all offside decisions are clear and obvious. Let's forget Chelsea's attempts at muddying the water with their screen shot taken after the ball was passed.

In a situation without VAR then offside errors are no longer clear and obvious.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

where better to publish it than their own website?

you think the site is embarrassing?

I think its embarrassing I didnt recognise what ifab was.

And I also think, when a change is so vast, people shouldnt be having to research it - I think there is a duty to put it in the right areas, in the right form, for people to recieve and understand the process.

They could have released statements/videos etc and you know full well SSN would have had a field day with it and then 90% of the football audience will be immediately clued up.

Either decision is correct in that situation, we just don't know if its offside or not and do not have the technology to reliably tell us. What is clear is the decision has gone against their own guidelines / rules, where it is not clear and obvious go with the decision on the pitch.

I think, given the VAR process, we DO know it WAS onside. And ultimately isnt that the point?

Whether or not it should have gone to VAR appears to be the bit open for interpretation, as you and scara are handily demonstrating.

Maybe I can only speak for myself here but even after the goal against Chelsea was awarded I felt robbed because of the delay. You are right to say there are already other instances where you have to put your celebration on hold but I don't like those either and this is introducing yet another one.

From memory we scored six against Rochdale and I recall getting to the point where every time we scored a goal my first instinct was to hold back instead of letting rip, it got that ridiculous.

In truth I can see that overall the introduction of VARs makes very good sense on a practical basis and maybe in time I will learn to adjust and accept. But for me there's no getting away from the fact that that precious moment of spontaneous abandon after a goal is scored is being eroded ever more and will continue to be eroded progressively as time goes on.

That is something I deeply regret.

I can see that. I dont know that it will remain the same over time.

I mean, even with the delays we currently have - I still scream my head off immediately, even if then my heart sinks because its disallowed through the lino or goal line tech.

Ive never stopped and waited for the ok, and I dont imagine I will with VAR. Its just more of the same to me.

 

[r-u-s-x]

If you work on the assumption VAR exists and is in use (as it was in this scenario), then all offside decisions are clear and obvious. Let's forget Chelsea's attempts at muddying the water with their screen shot taken after the ball was passed.

In a situation without VAR then offside errors are no longer clear and obvious.

I think that it is only "clear and obvious" because you state that VAR is able to definitively state if a call is offside or not, this is not the case. Using the original screenshot at least half the people I speak to are convinced his head is offside, the tools do not allow definitively state if it is offside or not - unless they have other means that do allow this but if they do why not publicise them so I will assume they are not there.

You feel VAR has moved the decision from objective to binary but while its human eyes making the decision and you only have certain angles this is not the case.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

I think that it is only "clear and obvious" because you state that VAR is able to definitively state if a call is offside or not, this is not the case. Using the original screenshot at least half the people I speak to are convinced his head is offside, the tools do not allow definitively state if it is offside or not - unless they have other means that do allow this but if they do why not publicise them so I will assume they are not there.

You feel VAR has moved the decision from objective to binary but while its human eyes making the decision and you only have certain angles this is not the case.

You would surely have to conceed though, that while it is a human decision - it is an incredibly more informed one than the ref on the pitch, and therefore far more likely to be correct?

This particular case is as tight as it gets, most will not even be debatable. And this one, for me, is onside. Especially given the old adage of the advantage being given to the attacker. If the difference is the width of a hair one way or the other, is it even one to argue on?

 

[r-u-s-x]

* the FA and Fifa agree on your interpretation - I think its an easy getout to prove VAR is always right

 

[r-u-s-x]

You would surely have to conceed though, that while it is a human decision - it is an incredibly more informed one than the ref on the pitch, and therefore far more likely to be correct?

This particular case is as tight as it gets, most will not even be debatable. And this one, for me, is onside. Especially given the old adage of the advantage being given to the attacker. If the difference is the width of a hair one way or the other, is it even one to argue on?

I am ok with Linesman getting tight calls wrong, I am not ok with VAR getting tight calls wrong - not that this one is.

Advantage to the attacker is an old rule that has not been around for a number of years - I have not seen refs informally follow this either.

 

[mudshark]

While a lot of calls are subjective the elite clubs will benefit from VAR, in both decisions and what will be reviewed.

Maybe, yeah, but it's an unknown variable for them at the moment, and I'd expect vested interests to be conservative in their view.

 

[mudshark]

The best solution would be two referees - one for each half of the pitch (like ice hockey). That instantly kills the megalomaniac egos, and ensures they are closer to the action

Or drone robots