Tim Sherwood…gone \o/

[Raziel]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Well obviously he has... a) Man management - brought through the youngsters and has said that he wont pick on reputation, that to me is man management. If those 'bigger' stars dont like it then it shows where their cause is. b) Tactical ability - debatable but has shown through the 'success' in winning games that he has some ability in this regard. c) Vested in Spurs - and you think half those players are? Vert for example?

- I actually think his reliance on youngsters highlights a major flaw in his "man management" he seems only to be able to work with players he has had in his youth team. Ade/Kane/Bentaleb he all knows from his previous tenure, yet the major team he still "has no idea who his best 11 is" (his words) and players like Sandro/Vert who almost any neutral would say are critical players to Spurs he can't motivate/manage.
- If we did anything but take it up the ass from sides even slightly better than us, or didn't ship 3 goals in 20 minutes against West Brom, maybe I would agree with you, but when your highlight reel is wins against Sunderland and Fulham with a side than cost upwards of a 100M to put together, I don't see any great tactical plan other than abandon defense and overcommit to attack regardless of opposition.
- We aren't talking about players, we are talking about TS, if the guy is keeping the seat warm, why keep vs. any manager with a better CV? my question was/is, have you seen anything that says he's vested in Spurs that would make someone think about him more (vs. a Hoddle or even BMJ who obviously have an affection for Spurs)?

 

[thfcsteff]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Harry got abuse for putting two upfront? news to me. not really sure what relevance that has anyway

take a look at our attacking options from that season - frankly on paper we were poor outside of Bale so it's no surprise that our game plan was centered on him and that the alternatives (or back up plan) wasn't as effective. i seem to remember us picking up plenty of points in the early part of the season prior to when Bale really kicked on as well btw.

One of the main things I think everybody is forgetting about last season (and AVB's first in charge) is that our side had been built by the predecessor around Luka Modric, and quite rightly so; the man was brilliant (much-under appreciated by some mate, not you I know, but some)…thus not just the new incoming manager but our entire side had to adapt to a new style of playing without the man who had been the foundation for three seasons…

Quite a big change to accommodate IMO.

 

[harr1984]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

There are many areas of the side I don't feel he's properly addressed though mate, the chief of which is defence. He has no strategy (or perhaps desire) to fashion a side which is tight in defence! Our back-line is weak yet he offers them no protection whatsoever week in, week out. It'd be lunacy as a long-term policy IMO.

With the constant injuries to our defence I don't think its fair to call him out on that. I bet if Livermore hadn't been sent out on loan he'd be in the current set up to shield the CBs (an unpopular choice on here I know), reckon he'd be flourishing too. You're right, there is not a lot of protection in front of the back 4, but I at least feel like Im watching Spurs again which I definitely didn't feel like earlier this season under AVB....

 

[Kingdawson]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Rodgers has the benefit of having the backing of the board/fans during his first season where performances and results were erratic to say the least, it's funny to see people use him as an example whilst at the same time lambasting AVB for his first season in charge :lol:.

What are you talking about?

My post was in reference to when he actually implemented his preferred system (from Jan last season when they purchased Coutinho and Sturridge). Rodgers said he only needed 2 players to get his system working....they brought them 2 in....instant success (both players hit the ground rolling instantly). You think Rodgers would still be in charge if they brought in those 2 and he still couldn't get results? the Liverpool board would have slam dunked him out of Anfield in the summer had they not seen noticeable improvement from Jan onwards. Backing of the fans? Pool fans were moaning constantly about him prior to Jan last year..

 

[billyiddo]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

One of the main things I think everybody is forgetting about last season (and AVB's first in charge) is that our side had been built by the predecessor around Luka Modric, and quite rightly so; the man was brilliant (much-under appreciated by some mate, not you I know, but some)…thus not just the new incoming manager but our entire side had to adapt to a new style of playing without the man who had been the foundation for three seasons…

Quite a big change to accommodate IMO.

yes - and then the following season our latest figurehead needed replacing ](*,)

i agree and i don't think people gave/give enough credit to the loss of key players from the 11/12 season

 

[billyiddo]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

What are you talking about?

My post was in reference to when he actually implemented his preferred system (from Jan last season when they purchased Coutinho and Sturridge). Rodgers said he only needed 2 players to get his system working....they brought them 2 in....instant success (both players hit the ground rolling instantly). You think Rodgers would still be in charge if they brought in those 2 and he still couldn't get results? the Liverpool board would have slam dunked him out of Anfield in the summer had they not seen noticeable improvement from Jan onwards. Backing of the fans? Pool fans were moaning constantly about him prior to Jan last year..

Rodgers was afforded time to build the team how he wanted and didn't have the same major reshuffling which we went through in the summer just gone, he also never had the pressing issue of maintaining a top 4 challenge meaning he could work more on his system as opposed to getting instant results. he got the two players he needed, whilst we lost the main cog of ours and seemingly replaced him with several players the manager didn't really want meaning more disruption to any 'plan' he may or may not have had.

 

[NWND]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

*beep* *beep* *beep* *beep*

Is it a bird? Is it a plane? NO, it's the sound of the NWND lorry reversing rapidly out of its "I was glad AVB was sacked" parking position.

Have I had a ridiculous change of heart re: AVB's qualities? Certainly not.

What I do believe, however, was that for all his faults, AVB had class. He respected the massive and traditional community institution he had been placed in charge of.

Even after his sacking, and his supposed fall-out with Levy & Baldini, he could have stuck the knife into the club. He didn't and bar one or two comments, he has respected the club and its decision to part with him.

I honestly couldn't fault AVB speaking to the media and defending his decisions and the club.

I don't think he was good enough or rather experienced enough for the job, but he was a credit to the club whilst in charge.

If sacking AVB means we have to put up with this poisonous, self-important, manipulative t**t dragging the club and his decisions through the dirt in public, then please come back Andre.

This Sandro business is embarrassing. I personally think Sandro is highly overrated by Spurs fans, but whatever his opinions, this classless self-serving media campaign is completely against what being a manager of a top, historic club is all about. If you're managing a minnow team like Stoke punching above their weight creating a siege mentality against the big boys then fine.

Gobbing off in every press conference possible to serve your own agenda is not acceptable. Please get rid of this clown as soon as possible.

 

[braineclipse]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

*beep* *beep* *beep* *beep*

Is it a bird? Is it a plane? NO, it's the sound of the NWND lorry reversing rapidly out of its "I was glad AVB was sacked" parking position.

Have I had a ridiculous change of heart re: AVB's qualities? Certainly not.

What I do believe, however, was that for all his faults, AVB had class. He respected the massive and traditional community institution he had been placed in charge of.

Even after his sacking, and his supposed fall-out with Levy & Baldini, he could have stuck the knife into the club. He didn't and bar one or two comments, he has respected the club and its decision to part with him.

I honestly couldn't fault AVB speaking to the media and defending his decisions and the club.

I don't think he was good enough or rather experienced enough for the job, but he was a credit to the club whilst in charge.

If sacking AVB means we have to put up with this poisonous, self-important, manipulative t**t dragging the club and his decisions through the dirt in public, then please come back Andre.

This Sandro business is embarrassing. I personally think Sandro is highly overrated by Spurs fans, but whatever his opinions, this classless self-serving media campaign is completely against what being a manager of a top, historic club is all about. If you're managing a minnow team like Stoke punching above their weight creating a siege mentality against the big boys then fine.

Gobbing off in every press conference possible to serve your own agenda is not acceptable. Please get rid of this clown as soon as possible.

Not for long (I think).

 

[braineclipse]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Rodgers was afforded time to build the team how he wanted and didn't have the same major reshuffling which we went through in the summer just gone, he also never had the pressing issue of maintaining a top 4 challenge meaning he could work more on his system as opposed to getting instant results. he got the two players he needed, whilst we lost the main cog of ours and seemingly replaced him with several players the manager didn't really want meaning more disruption to any 'plan' he may or may not have had.

Quite a few people on here were noticing the improvements at Liverpool under Rodgers last season and were pointing them out.

There was progress there in the style of play for sure and the way they relatively frequently crushed smaller teams was impressive and a good foundation for them to build on. Very rarely were we able to do the same.

He also had a worse starting point than AVB, the reason why maintaining an immediate top 4 challenge wasn't a target for them, they weren't in that top 4 challenge when he took over.

 

[Huddy]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Rodgers had the benefit of having the backing of the board/fans during his first season where performances and results were erratic to say the least, it's funny to see people use him as an example whilst at the same time lambasting AVB for his first season in charge :lol:.

I don't agree with that, fans were beginning to turn on him around January last year and were calling for his sacking, plus there was a comment from Ronald de Boer that his brother turned down managing Liverpool in 2013 so FSG at one point last year were looking to replace Rodgers if his comment is true.

 

[RigorMortis]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

You haven't disputed any if the facts I have put forward. I have deliberately NOT harked back to AVB. Sherwood was introduced immediately after a hammering at home to Liverpool with iirc Verts playing out of position at left back and centre backs of Dawson and ? Capoue and playing a suicidal high line against probably the fastest and most potent strike force in the PL. oh yes, everything was distinctly rosy when he took over.

I'm not disputing any of your facts because I'm struggling to understand your reasoning.
If the remit of failing to make the top 4 is not a disgrace then surely by your own standards sheer wood shouldn't even be in the job because the situation wasn't that bad.

So where do you standard because you aren't making any sense just tying yourself up in knots.
Why we're you so vehemently for sacking the previous incumbent if by the standards you have set he want performing that badly

By your own reasoning if the top four teams are that much better we should be expected to lose to them
If losing to Liverpool 5-0 at home is reason judging by your own posts to get rid of a manger when we had no fit left back and had to play a central midfielder in defence as well as being down to ten men... Then why aren't you applying the same logic to shipping five at home to City and 4 to Chelsea and Liverpool?

Or is it just a simple case of you don't actually know what you're on about?

 

[billyiddo]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Quite a few people on here were noticing the improvements at Liverpool under Rodgers last season and were pointing them out.

There was progress there in the style of play for sure and the way they relatively frequently crushed smaller teams was impressive and a good foundation for them to build on. Very rarely were we able to do the same.

He also had a worse starting point than AVB, the reason why maintaining an immediate top 4 challenge wasn't a target for them, they weren't in that top 4 challenge when he took over.

what im saying is that because he had no pressure to bring immediate results he could afford more time to work on the style of play he wished to implement, knowing there was little expectation in the league, AVB never had that luxury and had to juggle setting the team up to play his way and putting up a serious challenge for the top 4. i think it was pretty obvious from reading the comments when he was appointed that a serious top 4 challenge was of the utmost importance to the majority of posters on this board and that is what we got.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Quite a few people on here were noticing the improvements at Liverpool under Rodgers last season and were pointing them out.

There was progress there in the style of play for sure and the way they relatively frequently crushed smaller teams was impressive and a good foundation for them to build on. Very rarely were we able to do the same.

He also had a worse starting point than AVB, the reason why maintaining an immediate top 4 challenge wasn't a target for them, they weren't in that top 4 challenge when he took over.

Can we all just remember Liverpool finished 7th last year while we were in with a shot at 3rd on the final day?

Yes Rodgers got his system going. Yes players other than Suarez are playing well. But that's because he didn't have the pressure of needing to get top 4. He was able to use last season as a bedding in period and it isn't surprising the system is better. He also got the players he needed to make what he wanted to do, work.

Rodgers has done absolutely amazing work. It's brilliant. But they finished 7th last year and we were far more consistent. We had more pressure to win games to maintain a top 4 challenge and outside of Bale we had the likes of an out of form / disinterested Ade, Siggy, Dempsey, and a Defoe that went quickly off the boil as he always does after his early season burst of goals. Those were the players we had, and we managed record points. We had lost Modric, and then were to lose Bale.

Comparing AVB to Rodgers is quite pointless when the different circumstances are added in. As for why this is being talked about in the Sherwood thread, is it because we are saying Sherwood is doing really well because he doesn't have Bale and that's the only way AVB was able to win any games? I think Sherwood has won games because he's played to the Harry formula of letting good players go out there and beat inferior players. Every time he's had to show any tactical nous at all to beat a better team, he's come up well short. He's also had the benefit of a load of foreign signings being more settled. That isn't to say all of them are completely settled, but as Sandro says, some will take 6 months, some will take a year before feeling comfortable with this league. It's no surprise to see Eriksen being the quickest to adapt in that regard.

 

[scaramanga]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

You do realise i'm talking about last season when Liverpool were well below us and sturridge just arrived right? have a look at their record without Suarez at the end of the season please. Thank you.

The Liverpool that finished 7th?

Please excuse me if I don't make them our role models.

 

[braineclipse]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

what im saying is that because he had no pressure to bring immediate results he could afford more time to work on the style of play he wished to implement, knowing there was little expectation in the league, AVB never had that luxury and had to juggle setting the team up to play his way and putting up a serious challenge for the top 4. i think it was pretty obvious from reading the comments when he was appointed that a serious top 4 challenge was of the utmost importance to the majority of posters on this board and that is what we got.

Despite this pressure I would expect some progress in terms of attacking team play after 18 months. I didn't think there was any.

Despite the pressure I would expect him to get our pressing play to stick more than 2-3 months into the season, it didn't.

Overall our play was no better the day he left than the day he arrived (generalization, obviously we didn't play any games the day he arrived). After 18 months I don't think that's good enough, even though he's in a results oriented business.

Can we all just remember Liverpool finished 7th last year while we were in with a shot at 3rd on the final day?

Yes Rodgers got his system going. Yes players other than Suarez are playing well. But that's because he didn't have the pressure of needing to get top 4. He was able to use last season as a bedding in period and it isn't surprising the system is better. He also got the players he needed to make what he wanted to do, work.

Rodgers has done absolutely amazing work. It's brilliant. But they finished 7th last year and we were far more consistent. We had more pressure to win games to maintain a top 4 challenge and outside of Bale we had the likes of an out of form / disinterested Ade, Siggy, Dempsey, and a Defoe that went quickly off the boil as he always does after his early season burst of goals. Those were the players we had, and we managed record points. We had lost Modric, and then were to lose Bale.

Comparing AVB to Rodgers is quite pointless when the different circumstances are added in. As for why this is being talked about in the Sherwood thread, is it because we are saying Sherwood is doing really well because he doesn't have Bale and that's the only way AVB was able to win any games? I think Sherwood has won games because he's played to the Harry formula of letting good players go out there and beat inferior players. Every time he's had to show any tactical nous at all to beat a better team, he's come up well short. He's also had the benefit of a load of foreign signings being more settled. That isn't to say all of them are completely settled, but as Sandro says, some will take 6 months, some will take a year before feeling comfortable with this league. It's no surprise to see Eriksen being the quickest to adapt in that regard.

Can we also remember that both of those positions were very similar to where the clubs were when Rodgers and AVB took over? If you think after Benitez, Hodgson and Daglish getting the boot in quick succession Rodgers wasn't under any pressure you're mistaken. If you think he could have delivered another 7th this season and Liverpool would have been fine with it you're mistaken.

Liverpool were more consistent than us last season. They were consistently better than us against bottom half teams and consistently worse than us against top (half) teams. They, unlike us, got their attacking play going with and without their star player. A year into his Spurs career and we didn't look anything other than solid at the best. Make us hard to beat first, ok. Make us solid first, ok. Make us defensively solid first, ok. But then that started falling apart too, and there still wasn't any improvement in our attacking play. Don't make me look up our scoring stats under AVB this season because it makes me sad. That, quite simply, wasn't ok.

 

[Kingdawson]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Rodgers was afforded time to build the team how he wanted and didn't have the same major reshuffling which we went through in the summer just gone, he also never had the pressing issue of maintaining a top 4 challenge meaning he could work more on his system as opposed to getting instant results. he got the two players he needed, whilst we lost the main cog of ours and seemingly replaced him with several players the manager didn't really want meaning more disruption to any 'plan' he may or may not have had.

I don't think you get what i'm saying tbh.

The was afforded time to build a team because you could visually see what he was trying to implement straight from the beginning. He then says if he's allowed the opportunity to bring 2 players in then he would be able to play the system he wants and you will see the results. This is not comparable in the slightest to AVB's situation here.

 

[Kingdawson]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

The Liverpool that finished 7th?

Please excuse me if I don't make them our role models.

wow you really don't get what i'm saying? ok.

 

[DHSF]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

- I actually think his reliance on youngsters highlights a major flaw in his "man management" he seems only to be able to work with players he has had in his youth team. Ade/Kane/Bentaleb he all knows from his previous tenure, yet the major team he still "has no idea who his best 11 is" (his words) and players like Sandro/Vert who almost any neutral would say are critical players to Spurs he can't motivate/manage.
- If we did anything but take it up the ass from sides even slightly better than us, or didn't ship 3 goals in 20 minutes against West Brom, maybe I would agree with you, but when your highlight reel is wins against Sunderland and Fulham with a side than cost upwards of a 100M to put together, I don't see any great tactical plan other than abandon defense and overcommit to attack regardless of opposition.
- We aren't talking about players, we are talking about TS, if the guy is keeping the seat warm, why keep vs. any manager with a better CV? my question was/is, have you seen anything that says he's vested in Spurs that would make someone think about him more (vs. a Hoddle or even BMJ who obviously have an affection for Spurs)?

First point, Vert had this issue before TS came. His body language is exactly the same as it was before TS took over. Sandro has been injure for a while so not sure how TS can motivate him. You mention critical players yet forget Erikssen. Also you forgot the bit about how he will only pick players on merit not reputation - thats a big man management attribute to him - its motivating people to play better. If players are unable to accept that challenge, that is their issue.

Second point, it is debatable. Im not convinced he is tactically brilliant but I am also not convinced he is tactically poor. People on here always want to talk in absolutes (dont get me started as I think its utterly pathetic), he is either **** or he is brilliant. There is no middle ground. TS has shown good aspects of his tactical ability and poor aspects. I am convinced that is down to him still learning.

Third point, better CV does not equate to successful Manager, I have experienced that in the real world and i sure as hell believe it applies in football. How can anyone pass judgement on TS's vested interest so soon after four months? He has been here a while so I would liek to give him the benefit of the doubt because he HAS been here for a while.

TS has made mistakes, there is no denying that, BUT im understanding in that he is young, in a very difficult and challenging position and ultimately is on a learning curve. The vitriol towards him is absurd. I was no fan of AVB but even I can acknowledge what he did right and wrong and that brings me back to the initial point about absolutes - not everything is black and white.

 

[Kingdawson]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Can we all just remember Liverpool finished 7th last year while we were in with a shot at 3rd on the final day?

Yes Rodgers got his system going. Yes players other than Suarez are playing well. But that's because he didn't have the pressure of needing to get top 4. He was able to use last season as a bedding in period and it isn't surprising the system is better. He also got the players he needed to make what he wanted to do, work.

Rodgers has done absolutely amazing work. It's brilliant. But they finished 7th last year and we were far more consistent. We had more pressure to win games to maintain a top 4 challenge and outside of Bale we had the likes of an out of form / disinterested Ade, Siggy, Dempsey, and a Defoe that went quickly off the boil as he always does after his early season burst of goals. Those were the players we had, and we managed record points. We had lost Modric, and then were to lose Bale.

Comparing AVB to Rodgers is quite pointless when the different circumstances are added in. As for why this is being talked about in the Sherwood thread, is it because we are saying Sherwood is doing really well because he doesn't have Bale and that's the only way AVB was able to win any games? I think Sherwood has won games because he's played to the Harry formula of letting good players go out there and beat inferior players. Every time he's had to show any tactical nous at all to beat a better team, he's come up well short. He's also had the benefit of a load of foreign signings being more settled. That isn't to say all of them are completely settled, but as Sandro says, some will take 6 months, some will take a year before feeling comfortable with this league. It's no surprise to see Eriksen being the quickest to adapt in that regard.

Did you just make this up?

 

[scaramanga]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

What are you talking about?

My post was in reference to when he actually implemented his preferred system (from Jan last season when they purchased Coutinho and Sturridge). Rodgers said he only needed 2 players to get his system working....they brought them 2 in....instant success (both players hit the ground rolling instantly). You think Rodgers would still be in charge if they brought in those 2 and he still couldn't get results? the Liverpool board would have slam dunked him out of Anfield in the summer had they not seen noticeable improvement from Jan onwards. Backing of the fans? Pool fans were moaning constantly about him prior to Jan last year..

Didn't AVB say he needed two players to make his system work and then not get them?