Tim Sherwood…gone \o/

[braineclipse]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

The defensive problems come from us giving the ball away time after time near the half way line. Its criminal. Teams always catch us on the break and we are not set up to defend properly. Moreover, as the attacking players are going forward beyond the ball this doesnt leave the numbers back to defend.

If we kept the ball better we wouldnt have half the trouble we do.

On that pitch and with our central midfielders I think that was always going to be the case as long as we tried to play through the middle.

Without Ade on the pitch we didn't really have a direct route option either so our choices in style were limited. Personally I can't really blame Sherwood as it was vital to give Soldado some game time and resting Ade who has been key to our league resurgence also seems like the right decision.

If we can get Kaboul playing week in week out with Vertonghen I think we'd be much more solid

Almost no doubt in my mind that this is true.

Would be a massive boost if Kaboul could regain fitness and make himself available regularly.

 

[screen nayim]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Can you not see the glaring flaw in this utter bull**** you keep bringing up? It ASSUMES..... It is absolutely preposterous to ASSUME anything, especially as you keep calling it "cold hard facts"

It is utter bull****, and I'm sure everyone would really appreciate if you stopped patronising people, making out you're ****ing hyper intelligent and giving people reading lists you're not sure they'll even understand.

I liked AVB. I didn't like Tim. I wasn't convinced. I still don't like Tim. But Saudi Sportswashing Machine was impressive. I don't need to believe in the supernatural to inform my opinions.

Well somebody had to say it. =D>

 

[Robspur12]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

If we can get Kaboul playing week in week out with Vertonghen I think we'd be much more solid

Really? Well the 2 of them played together against Saudi Sportswashing Machine, who created a number of chances and we hung on due to world class goalkeeping. I give up on this because as far as most posters are concerned Dawson is the root of all our troubles. I will leave it as we need to be better organised defensively and offer better protection to our back 4. It is absolutely no coincidence in my mind that every single defender and Lloris have looked incompetent at some point in the season. Tim must work on our defensive game rather than just the offensive side.

 

[braineclipse]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Really? Well the 2 of them played together against Saudi Sportswashing Machine, who created a number of chances and we hung on due to world class goalkeeping. I give up on this because as far as most posters are concerned Dawson is the root of all our troubles. I will leave it as we need to be better organised defensively and offer better protection to our back 4. It is absolutely no coincidence in my mind that every single defender and Lloris have looked incompetent at some point in the season. Tim must work on our defensive game rather than just the offensive side.

I remember him making two proper classy saves. Didn't think at the time that any of those chances were because of the centre backs.

There were several situations where I thought Kaboul did really well, situations where Dawson typically struggle.

No doubt Sandro (hopefully) returning soon would make us stronger defensively.

Edit: And to say that most posters think that Dawson is the root of all our troubles is flat out wrong I think. I don't think there's been a vote, but most seem to think that the left back position is our weak spot. Was also one of the most frequently mentioned positions in the January transfer window.

Quite a few posters think that Kaboul is significantly better than Dawson, and that Dawson isn't really good enough to be a regular starter for a top 4 challenging side. Even most of his defenders when asked have indicated that mid table teams at best would be interested in signing him if we make him available, when he was available only QPR seemed to show real interest.

 

[Robspur12]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

I remember him making two proper classy saves. Didn't think at the time that any of those chances were because of the centre backs.

There were several situations where I thought Kaboul did really well, situations where Dawson typically struggle.

No doubt Sandro (hopefully) returning soon would make us stronger defensively.

Edit: And to say that most posters think that Dawson is the root of all our troubles is flat out wrong I think. I don't think there's been a vote, but most seem to think that the left back position is our weak spot. Was also one of the most frequently mentioned positions in the January transfer window.

Quite a few posters think that Kaboul is significantly better than Dawson, and that Dawson isn't really good enough to be a regular starter for a top 4 challenging side. Even most of his defenders when asked have indicated that mid table teams at best would be interested in signing him if we make him available, when he was available only QPR seemed to show real interest.

3 very good saves mate one from pa**** cisse who just walked through our defence, one a header from a corner our centre backs should be winning. All 3 saved certain goals. In my mind that does not mean "more" solid.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Es-5OupgoOo

Also the argument that Dawson would only make it into a mid table team is a fallacious one. So what? I'm sure that John Terry would not be snapped up by one of the European greats but he still does a good job for Chelsea as Daws does for us. And yes when you read some of the posts against Daws it does seem that many posters cannot believe he is still playing for us and he is the root of all our defensive and through his long balls many of our offensive problems too.

As for Kaboul, not saying he's not good but he has been involved in some real stinkers Arsenal away under Harry and iirc Emirates Marketing Project this season. Let's face it he's so often unfit there's not a lot to go on.

 

[Raziel]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Really? Well the 2 of them played together against Saudi Sportswashing Machine, who created a number of chances and we hung on due to world class goalkeeping. I give up on this because as far as most posters are concerned Dawson is the root of all our troubles. I will leave it as we need to be better organised defensively and offer better protection to our back 4. It is absolutely no coincidence in my mind that every single defender and Lloris have looked incompetent at some point in the season. Tim must work on our defensive game rather than just the offensive side.

^^^ This, for some time now, Spurs struggles to be a good defensive unit, good defenders, but not a good defense

- In Lloris, Walker, Vert, Kaboul, Vlad and yes Dawson (Rose for me needs upgrading immediately), with Sandro in front we have the potential for a very good defense.
- It's tactics, positioning and coaching of that "unit" that we need to work on
- If that's not TS's strong point, maybe he should hire someone to work on that area for the team.

 

[braineclipse]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

3 very good saves mate one from pa**** cisse who just walked through our defence, one a header from a corner our centre backs should be winning. All 3 saved certain goals. In my mind that does not mean "more" solid.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Es-5OupgoOo

Also the argument that Dawson would only make it into a mid table team is a fallacious one. So what? I'm sure that John Terry would not be snapped up by one of the European greats but he still does a good job for Chelsea as Daws does for us. And yes when you read some of the posts against Daws it does seem that many posters cannot believe he is still playing for us and he is the root of all our defensive and through his long balls many of our offensive problems too.

I honestly think most PL goalies save the second one most of the time, but I'll agree to 3.

How many of those were because of our centre backs? You claim that "our centre backs should be winning the header" from the corner, but it seems to me that it's Capoue involved in that duel. Surely we're not expecting our centre backs to win every header from every corner?

How does that Terry point make the argument fallacious? Surely there are teams in between mid level PL sides and "the European greats"? Ever heard of a false dichotomy?

Seriously, if 33 year old Terry and 30 year old Dawson are both made available come the summer I would expect Terry to end up at a significantly bigger team than Dawson, unless Terry goes down the MLS/China route. Do you disagree?

I don't get how it's a fallacious argument at all. Which other clubs that would be interested in signing a player does say something about the ability of that player, seems about as obvious as a statement can be.

I'm sure you've never exaggerated in a post then? At least you're now down to "some of the posts" from "most posters", I might even agree with that statement. Some posts are outrageous, extrapolating from that to "most posters" just because the majority seems to disagree with your point of view seems far fetched to me.

 

[Robspur12]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

I honestly think most PL goalies save the second one most of the time, but I'll agree to 3.

How many of those were because of our centre backs? You claim that "our centre backs should be winning the header" from the corner, but it seems to me that it's Capoue involved in that duel. Surely we're not expecting our centre backs to win every header from every corner?

How does that Terry point make the argument fallacious? Surely there are teams in between mid level PL sides and "the European greats"? Ever heard of a false dichotomy?

Seriously, if 33 year old Terry and 30 year old Dawson are both made available come the summer I would expect Terry to end up at a significantly bigger team than Dawson, unless Terry goes down the MLS/China route. Do you disagree?

I don't get how it's a fallacious argument at all. Which other clubs that would be interested in signing a player does say something about the ability of that player, seems about as obvious as a statement can be.

I'm sure you've never exaggerated in a post then? At least you're now down to "some of the posts" from "most posters", I might even agree with that statement. Some posts are outrageous, extrapolating from that to "most posters" just because the majority seems to disagree with your point of view seems far fetched to me.

The header for the second save is in a position which I would be expecting at least 1 of our 2 centre backs to be defending no?

The Terry example for me shows that a player can be invaluable to one team but not be worth the same to another team. In his prime Daws was wanted by Liverpool. At 30 it is now unlikely that any of the top 4 would want him. But IMO apart from Chelsea where he is their talisman I'm not sure any of the top 4 teams would want Terry. But he is clearly invaluable to Chelsea. It's funny there have umpteen transfer windows since Daws has been with us yet he has survived Bassong, Gallas, Kaboul, the first time around, Caulker. Managers must see something good in him.

 

[braineclipse]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

The header for the second save is in a position which I would be expecting at least 1 of our 2 centre backs to be defending no?

The Terry example for me shows that a player can be invaluable to one team but not be worth the same to another team. In his prime Daws was wanted by Liverpool. At 30 it is now unlikely that any of the top 4 would want him. But IMO apart from Chelsea where he is their talisman I'm not sure any of the top 4 teams would want Terry. But he is clearly invaluable to Chelsea. It's funny there have umpteen transfer windows since Daws has been with us yet he has survived Bassong, Gallas, Kaboul, the first time around, Caulker. Managers must see something good in him.

We seem to more or less play a man marking system. I would expect the player that's marking that Saudi Sportswashing Machine player to be challenging for it, that player seems to be Capoue.

Blaming our centre backs for not being in a duel with a man that isn't theirs is the kind of thing that if anyone did that with Dawson I'm quite sure you would say that they tried to blame everything on Dawson...

But Dawson quite clearly isn't invaluable to us (imo at least). So I fail to see the relevance. Yes, a player might be such a good fit that at that specific club he's beyond the value he would be for other clubs. Would you argue that this is the case with Dawson? If so, what is supporting this? If not, how is the original argument a fallacy?

Sadly, most players that have survived that long with us in recent years have done so because they haven't been good enough for better clubs. Not because they've been good enough to help us push on.

Dawson has been, and remains, a useful squad player.

 

[Mumorn]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Nice cup record for Sherwood

 

[Robspur12]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

We seem to more or less play a man marking system. I would expect the player that's marking that Saudi Sportswashing Machine player to be challenging for it, that player seems to be Capoue.

Blaming our centre backs for not being in a duel with a man that isn't theirs is the kind of thing that if anyone did that with Dawson I'm quite sure you would say that they tried to blame everything on Dawson...


But Dawson quite clearly isn't invaluable to us (imo at least). So I fail to see the relevance. Yes, a player might be such a good fit that at that specific club he's beyond the value he would be for other clubs. Would you argue that this is the case with Dawson? If so, what is supporting this? If not, how is the original argument a fallacy?

Sadly, most players that have survived that long with us in recent years have done so because they haven't been good enough for better clubs. Not because they've been good enough to help us push on.

Dawson has been, and remains, a useful squad player.

For that headed chance there are 4 Saudi Sportswashing Machine players around the penalty area when the ball is played into a central position where are our Centre backs? I would say that we should have been organised so the central defender is marking in that position. I would also suggest that as Kaboul is constantly unfit, Chiriches is not quite up to the pace of the premiership that Dawson is invaluable. But then that is just my opinion.

 

[Modric THFC]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

3 very good saves mate one from pa**** cisse who just walked through our defence, one a header from a corner our centre backs should be winning. All 3 saved certain goals. In my mind that does not mean "more" solid.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Es-5OupgoOo

Also the argument that Dawson would only make it into a mid table team is a fallacious one. So what? I'm sure that John Terry would not be snapped up by one of the European greats but he still does a good job for Chelsea as Daws does for us. And yes when you read some of the posts against Daws it does seem that many posters cannot believe he is still playing for us and he is the root of all our defensive and through his long balls many of our offensive problems too.

As for Kaboul, not saying he's not good but he has been involved in some real stinkers Arsenal away under Harry and iirc Emirates Marketing Project this season. Let's face it he's so often unfit there's not a lot to go on.

Dawson is good at one thing. Defending in a crowded penalty area.
Just because Terry is good at that too doesnt mean Dawson is the same player as Terry.

Terry can organise a defence whereas every defence Dawson attempts to organise ends up a complete mess.

 

[Rossi22]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Kaboul is much better than Dawson, just hope he can stay fit.

 

[Jurgen the German]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Either way imo...

I don't really see Dawson as a first choice player and I'm fine with him being a backup/squad player although that depends on Kaboul's fitness and how Chiriches develops of course.

I like Rose and his attitude, he really seems desperate to succeed with us and he has some good attributes. He just seems a bit short of the quality we need, could change, but not sure how much patience we can realistically show here...

I agree. Unless he dramatically improves ala Aaron Ramsey then I don't see how how/why he should keep his place in the side. I get that players improve as they gain experience, look at Gareth Bale for example, but we all knew he always had talent. Realistically, how much does Rose have in his locker? One of my biggest pet peeves with him is his petulance, just seems like a hothead.

 

[Cochise]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

I don't think many people expected Bale to take off the way he did though. When we bought him I saw a pacy kid with a great left foot but who was terrible at full back, then he seemed to gain some confidence from our first couple of wins with him in the side and he was roasting defences all across the country before ruining Maicon.

Rose on the other hand is a converted winger who is years behind a full back of the same age who has been learning the position since they were 16. I honestly think that once he learns his trade as a defender he could be a good full back, but whether or not he will get the time to learn with us is another question.

 

[Lilywhite]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Some of the posts regarding Dawson are so disrespectful it's unreal. Do we think Man United or Liverpool fans would treat long-term club servants the way some of our lot do? Hell, even Chelsea fans wouldn't bury their long term players. C'mon, let's not be like scum fans who have a penchant for constantly putting down likeable long-term players.

Daws isn't our best centre back naturally, probably our least talented in truth but it's so clear what he brings to the side, and that is organisation that none of Vertonghen, Kaboul or Chiriches bring to the table. Every top defence in England has had a leader over the years Terry, Vidic, Carragher, Adams etc etc. now Emirates Marketing Project with Kompany. It's no coincidence we kept so many clean sheets early on in the season with Daws at the back.

I do think he needs a minor rest, and with two very winnable games against Norwich and Cardiff coming up they are the perfect times to give him one while Kaboul and Vertonghen should be enough to hold the fort. But those of you writing him off need to take a long hard look at yourselves.

 

[Raziel]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

I don't think many people expected Bale to take off the way he did though. When we bought him I saw a pacy kid with a great left foot but who was terrible at full back, then he seemed to gain some confidence from our first couple of wins with him in the side and he was roasting defences all across the country before ruining Maicon.

Rose on the other hand is a converted winger who is years behind a full back of the same age who has been learning the position since they were 16. I honestly think that once he learns his trade as a defender he could be a good full back, but whether or not he will get the time to learn with us is another question.

Disagree, with Bale it was there to see ... and Bale wasn't terrible at FB, he was much better defender than Rose ...

Rose, I hate to say it, just isn't good enough either defending or going forward, questionable mentality, I feel we cost ourselves a few points by not upgrading on him in January

 

[Modric THFC]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Some of the posts regarding Dawson are so disrespectful it's unreal. Do we think Man United or Liverpool fans would treat long-term club servants the way some of our lot do? Hell, even Chelsea fans wouldn't bury their long term players. C'mon, let's not be like scum fans who have a penchant for constantly putting down likeable long-term players.

Daws isn't our best centre back naturally, probably our least talented in truth but it's so clear what he brings to the side, and that is organisation that none of Vertonghen, Kaboul or Chiriches bring to the table. Every top defence in England has had a leader over the years Terry, Vidic, Carragher, Adams etc etc. now Emirates Marketing Project with Kompany. It's no coincidence we kept so many clean sheets early on in the season with Daws at the back.

I do think he needs a minor rest, and with two very winnable games against Norwich and Cardiff coming up they are the perfect times to give him one while Kaboul and Vertonghen should be enough to hold the fort. But those of you writing him off need to take a long hard look at yourselves.

The guy is all blood and thunder sure but that doesn't mean he can organise **** all. It just means he the loudest guy in the room.
The reason we kept so many clean sheets was because AVB sent his team out with a fear of losing the ball. Safety first and the goal will come (from a penalty).

 

[Whiffler]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

I like to look at the positives ... we now have a goal difference of 4. This is our joint highest of the season.

 

[braineclipse]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

For that headed chance there are 4 Saudi Sportswashing Machine players around the penalty area when the ball is played into a central position where are our Centre backs? I would say that we should have been organised so the central defender is marking in that position. I would also suggest that as Kaboul is constantly unfit, Chiriches is not quite up to the pace of the premiership that Dawson is invaluable. But then that is just my opinion.

I would suggest that you'll need a dictionary and even then you'll run out of superlatives if you start with Dawson as invaluable. How do you then describe Vertonghen? Or Ade?

Some of the posts regarding Dawson are so disrespectful it's unreal. Do we think Man United or Liverpool fans would treat long-term club servants the way some of our lot do? Hell, even Chelsea fans wouldn't bury their long term players. C'mon, let's not be like scum fans who have a penchant for constantly putting down likeable long-term players.

Daws isn't our best centre back naturally, probably our least talented in truth but it's so clear what he brings to the side, and that is organisation that none of Vertonghen, Kaboul or Chiriches bring to the table. Every top defence in England has had a leader over the years Terry, Vidic, Carragher, Adams etc etc. now Emirates Marketing Project with Kompany. It's no coincidence we kept so many clean sheets early on in the season with Daws at the back.

I do think he needs a minor rest, and with two very winnable games against Norwich and Cardiff coming up they are the perfect times to give him one while Kaboul and Vertonghen should be enough to hold the fort. But those of you writing him off need to take a long hard look at yourselves.

Go on then, point out the particular parts of particular posts that you find so utterly disrespectful instead of just making a blanket statement aimed at no one.

I thought the Terry comparisons were strange, even though Terry is getting old and past it. Now we're bringing Kompany into it? How about finding someone with a similar strengths and weaknesses as Dawson at least, even Carragher was a decent right back and defensive midfielder earlier in his career...

If what you're saying about organization is true, that former Ajax captain Vertonghen doesn't bring organizational skills to the table we should expect Kaboul and Vertonghen to work pretty poorly then?

If the early solidity has to be because of or related to Dawson how about the 6-0, 5-0 and 5-1 results against City, Liverpool and City again? Dawson started all of those, surely he was bringing those organizational skills you talk about. Was that just a coincidence then?

I'm not writing him off by the way, like I've repeatedly said he's a decent squad player. If Kaboul and Vertonghen are fit though I think it's a pretty easy decision, play the two of them.