The Defensive Midfielder

[Spurmac1974]

Assuming you mean Alli is better than Mason, that is a ridiculous shout.

Alli has been getting massively overhyped on here recently. He is a big talent, and isn't far off Mason who is 5 years his senior. That is commendable. But Alli is still very raw and often is wasteful, while Mason is the vastly superior passer.

Anyway, back on topic, Dembele offers us a skill-set which no other midfielder in the squad (and arguably the world) can. He has been imperious lately.

Overhyped on here? I think every pundit, ex player and manager has been bigging him up. He's keeping Mason out of the team at the minute so someone seems to rate him higher.

 

[billyiddo]

Overhyped on here? I think every pundit, ex player and manager has been bigging him up. He's keeping Mason out of the team at the minute so someone seems to rate him higher.

Masons only just come back from injury tbf - Alli's shirt to lose atm though for sure

 

[Pandy]

Masons only just come back from injury tbf - Alli's shirt to lose atm though for sure

Basically this.

 

[Pandy]

Overhyped on here? I think every pundit, ex player and manager has been bigging him up. He's keeping Mason out of the team at the minute so someone seems to rate him higher.

English media in over-hyping young English player shock.

He is in the team on merit, for sure, but I think it is a tad ridiculous to be drawing cast-iron conclusions about the relative ability of he and Mason from about 5-10 games. I would just like to pour cold water onto this scalding cauldron before it overheats and boils over.

 

[parklane1]

The mason Bentaleb thing I think is part of what the article that was posted somewhere today about the Spurs way is all about. They lacked discipline to play defensive. They went forward at every oppurtunity with no regard for what was happening behind them. In fairness to them so did rose, walker, Townsend et al. Was this taught at the club? And the crowd urged them to as well.

That is what I mean by them not having a defensive mindset some players have it others do not, they may be good players in other skills but good defensive awareness ( like Dier) is not their strength. Tackling is only one part of a defensive mindset other skills like tracking runners, not ball watching and reading danger before it happens are just as important and both Mason and Bentaleb are short in that dept.

 

[90291Spur]

That is what I mean by them not having a defensive mindset some players have it others do not, they may be good players in other skills but good defensive awareness ( like Dier) is not their strength. Tackling is only one part of a defensive mindset other skills like tracking runners, not ball watching and reading danger before it happens are just as important and both Mason and Bentaleb are short in that dept.

Mason played most of his youth football, as I recall from things I have read, as a striker, so it is hardly surprising that he does not have a defensive mindset. When you take a skilled (European raised) defender like Dier and move him into the DM position he will have an advantage at reading the opposition's attacking players. I think if Poch is selecting players it is because he believes that the can do/will be able to do the job for us.

 

[SpursNorway]

I agree with a lot of that - and touching on the problems/errors you point out - I put that down to the way we asked them to play rather than any serious problem with either players defensive abilities, though would agree on Mason being more of a attacking centre mid than a box 2 box type. Bentaleb however could play that role and even a more defensive role IMV and could see him stepping in for Dier at times this season and performing well.

I hope you are right about Bentaleb being able to perform in the DM role, and would love to be proven wrong. That only tells us we have even more good options all across the pitch, players who can do a job not only in one role, but multiple roles.
And I'm going to eat a bit more humble pie

 

[milo]

Mason played most of his youth football, as I recall from things I have read, as a striker, so it is hardly surprising that he does not have a defensive mindset. When you take a skilled (European raised) defender like Dier and move him into the DM position he will have an advantage at reading the opposition's attacking players. I think if Poch is selecting players it is because he believes that the can do/will be able to do the job for us.

Dier had played in midfield at Sporting too

 

[braineclipse]

I agree with a lot of that - and touching on the problems/errors you point out - I put that down to the way we asked them to play rather than any serious problem with either players defensive abilities, though would agree on Mason being more of a attacking centre mid than a box 2 box type. Bentaleb however could play that role and even a more defensive role IMV and could see him stepping in for Dier at times this season and performing well.

Agreed. I think Bentaleb would look a lot better defensively with Alderweireld and an in form Walker behind him, and without Townsend, Paulinho, Adebayor etc ahead of him, and with a more settled team after a full season under Pochettino behind them. The work rate from a "front 4" of Kane, Eriksen, Lamela and either Dembele or Alli depending on the day is so much higher and so much more structured than some of what Mason and Bentaleb had to contend with last season I really don't see how it doesn't make direct comparisons between the performances of the deep two midfielders very difficult.

It's interesting that the comparison keeps being made between Bentaleb/Mason and Dier. No doubt Dier is better defensively than Mason, Alli, Dembele and probably Bentaleb at the moment by the looks of things. Mason has looked good in a deeper midfield position against top teams in the past. Against Arsenal Alli was quickly moved to a more attacking role with Dembele moving deeper to make us more solid. Not really a criticism of Alli as it was his first huge game and he's only 19, but it's worth keeping in mind that similar things were true about Bentaleb and Mason (to an extent) in games last season.

Both Mason and Bentaleb have played more attacking roles for the youth team than their respective roles last season. If we assume that Dier is currently the first (central) midfielder on the team sheeet and Eriksen and Lamela have two of the attacking midfield roles locked in the current competition for the other places is between Alli and Dembele (currently holding them) and Mason, Bentaleb, Son and Chadli (when fit).

Right now those places are Alli's and Dembele's "to lose". But I would expect those other players to at least put heavy pressure on them when they get the chance to play. As Mason, imo, already has done. And I would expect Dier to at least have to keep up his very high level of performance to keep Bentaleb behind him too. Son's place in the team looked locked in before his injury and Mason started 4 in a row earlier this season, when we were performing well. Bentaleb looked pretty much an automatic starter this summer. These things change rather quickly.

None of that should be seen as me belittling any of the players currently starting just to be clear (as accusations have been thrown around in the past), it's just that I rate Mason, Bentaleb and Son (as well as Chadli) very highly.

 

[GrimsbyYid]

You're not paying attention if you don't see the change in our midfield tactics - last season Mason and Bentaleb were playing as a pivot, sharing responsibilities : both attacking the final third, both defending, both moving the ball forward to our attacking players and so on - a complete split, whilst one was up attacking the other was supposed to be providing cover - the problems came about because they couldn't strike the right balance and were often both attacking at the same time leaving a hole behind them - when they got the balance right we looked sound as both are capable defensively. This season we're playing Dier as a defensive midfielder whose job is to protect the defence and marshal the centre of the pitch - often dropping back to form a back 3 if the FBs are pushing up to provide width - Alli on the other hand is free to focus on the attacking parts of the game and not have to keep track of where Dier is and get back to cover whilst it's his 'turn' to push forward.

I'd imagine it's a difficult way of playing for young players, a lot to think about and a lot that can go wrong. Much happier as we're playing now but it's not all down to simply putting Dier in to the team - there has been a change in our play, in midfield and the team as a whole, which has made us a stronger defensive unit.

I know exactly how we played (and now it didn't work). You're missing the point. We're playing this way BECAUSE of Dier, not an explicit tactical shift. As Jordimho said, when Dier didn't play, we didn't work in the same way, if it was tactical we would.

Was it scara who made out DMs were a thing of the past and not the modern age when j and a few others said it was exactly what we needed? Surely everyone agrees now we are far far superior with a DM in place? This is why we need another one.

 

[scaramanga]

I know exactly how we played (and now it didn't work). You're missing the point. We're playing this way BECAUSE of Dier, not an explicit tactical shift. As Jordimho said, when Dier didn't play, we didn't work in the same way, if it was tactical we would.

Was it scara who made out DMs were a thing of the past and not the modern age when j and a few others said it was exactly what we needed? Surely everyone agrees now we are far far superior with a DM in place? This is why we need another one.

To compare Dier with DMs is an insult to him. The boy can pass better with the little toe on his wrong foot than the likes of Parker.

 

[billyiddo]

I know exactly how we played (and now it didn't work). You're missing the point. We're playing this way BECAUSE of Dier, not an explicit tactical shift. As Jordimho said, when Dier didn't play, we didn't work in the same way, if it was tactical we would.

Was it scara who made out DMs were a thing of the past and not the modern age when j and a few others said it was exactly what we needed? Surely everyone agrees now we are far far superior with a DM in place? This is why we need another one.

Trouble is that we only have one game's evidence to go on with Dier out of the team which im sure you can see is not enough to draw any conclusions on how we'll setup without him - I saw Dembele fill the DM role against Liverpool anyway, do you think we reverted to last seasons tactics in that game then?

What we do know, based on over a quarter of the season is that we're set up differently to last season, not just in CM but with several alterations to the tactics all over the pitch - i think it does a bit of a disservice to the team and the work which will have gone in since the end of last season to say it's all just because we've replaced one player with another, id also say it's a little niave to think it's that simple - I don't think Poch is the type to stick players on the pitch and tell them to play their natural game, I think he'll give them clear instructions on how he wants them to play.

As for needing a DM - right now it certainly looks like it's working to our benefit to have one in the team, how we would perform this season without someone in that role and a double pivot instead, with a more solid back four behind them and a harder working four in front, would be a guess at this stage - I would expect to see an improvement on how they performed defensively last season by way of being part of a stronger, more consistent team that has a better understanding of how the manager wants to play.

Be interesting to see where we go from here and how Bentaleb will fit in to things once back from injury.

 

[Gazzasrightboot]

Trouble is that we only have one game's evidence to go on with Dier out of the team which im sure you can see is not enough to draw any conclusions on how we'll setup without him - I saw Dembele fill the DM role against Liverpool anyway, do you think we reverted to last seasons tactics in that game then?

What we do know, based on over a quarter of the season is that we're set up differently to last season, not just in CM but with several alterations to the tactics all over the pitch - i think it does a bit of a disservice to the team and the work which will have gone in since the end of last season to say it's all just because we've replaced one player with another, id also say it's a little niave to think it's that simple - I don't think Poch is the type to stick players on the pitch and tell them to play their natural game, I think he'll give them clear instructions on how he wants them to play.

As for needing a DM - right now it certainly looks like it's working to our benefit to have one in the team, how we would perform this season without someone in that role and a double pivot instead, with a more solid back four behind them and a harder working four in front, would be a guess at this stage - I would expect to see an improvement on how they performed defensively last season by way of being part of a stronger, more consistent team that has a better understanding of how the manager wants to play.

Be interesting to see where we go from here and how Bentaleb will fit in to things once back from injury.

Great post. Agree completely.

 

[GrimsbyYid]

Trouble is that we only have one game's evidence to go on with Dier out of the team which im sure you can see is not enough to draw any conclusions on how we'll setup without him - I saw Dembele fill the DM role against Liverpool anyway, do you think we reverted to last seasons tactics in that game then?

No because Dembele is a bazillion times better than Mason and bentaleb (slight exaggeration). And Alli is too. Fact is bentaleb and mason are just both tidy players with no real strengths in my eyes, I think they'd both improve next to a more DM minded player as I think they both offer more in attack. Bentaleb is the better of the two, him and Dembele destroyed Chelsea last year. But bentaleb and Mason is average at absolute best as a partnership. Dier offers more protection, Alli offers more attacking threat, Dembele offers protection and a better link to the attack. Personally I don't see room for Mason in the future as I see bentaleb as better now, but definitely far more room to improve as well.

 

[GrimsbyYid]

To compare Dier with DMs is an insult to him. The boy can pass better with the little toe on his wrong foot than the likes of Parker.

He is obviously a fantastic one, but however much you'll refuse to admit it, he is a defensive midfielder, there to protect the defence, not engage in the attack as much. You're blind or in denial of you can't see that.

 

[billyiddo]

No because Dembele is a bazillion times better than Mason and bentaleb (slight exaggeration). And Alli is too. Fact is bentaleb and mason are just both tidy players with no real strengths in my eyes, I think they'd both improve next to a more DM minded player as I think they both offer more in attack. Bentaleb is the better of the two, him and Dembele destroyed Chel53a last year. But bentaleb and Mason is average at absolute best as a partnership. Dier offers more protection, Alli offers more attacking threat, Dembele offers protection and a better link to the attack. Personally I don't see room for Mason in the future as I see bentaleb as better now, but definitely far more room to improve as well.

That doesn't really answer what I was asking mate - do you think we switched back to last seasons double pivot when Dier was out against Liverpool? I don't think we did and it goes to show that we have changed our tactics in midfield from last season as back then Dembele would have played a different role to how he played v Liverpool.

Paulinho and Stambouli are another two examples of players who came in and played CM at times last season and played the same double pivot role which Bentaleb and Mason were performing - which again points to the players being asked to perform specific roles rather than a natural game.

We know Masons natural game isn't to defend, as he played further forward in the youth teams - but he played the double pivot role last season because that is how he was asked to play, same with Bentaleb - he plays further forward for Algeria I believe. So
Again this points out that what the players natural game is, is second to how the manager asks them to play - so Dier may well be more defensive naturally but he's playing that role because there has been a change in tactics and when he is out the team another player will step in to play the same way

 

[scaramanga]

He is obviously a fantastic one, but however much you'll refuse to admit it, he is a defensive midfielder, there to protect the defence, not engage in the attack as much. You're blind or in denial of you can't see that.

He's a DM in that sense in the same way as Lamela and Lennon play the same position. Eg - only of you don't understand it properly.

 

[GrimsbyYid]

That doesn't really answer what I was asking mate - do you think we switched back to last seasons double pivot when Dier was out against Liverpool? I don't think we did and it goes to show that we have changed our tactics in midfield from last season as back then Dembele would have played a different role to how he played v Liverpool.

Sorry I don't think I was clear enough, it was my way of saying no I don't think we did, but because dembele isn't the same as be taken and mason. I guess I'm saying the players in those positions change the way we play, I think if bentqleb and mason started together again it would be a frustratingly inept double pivot again.

 

[GrimsbyYid]

He's a DM in that sense in the same way as Lamela and Lennon play the same position. Eg - only of you don't understand it properly.

, so I see you're very stubborn when you're proven wrong. The FACTS are: Dier is a defensive minded player, he primarily sits in front of the defence, his main skills are tackling, intercepting, playing it simple to the closest player to him. With him in the team even mason looked good and unleashed to be more attacking, we have been ,We are better defensively compared to the horror act season with such a defensive minded midfielder.

Now, because you think you are always right about everything and you explicitly said we didn't need a dm, you refuse to admit that having a dm has improved us tenfold. But it has. Be happy about it, we're better with a dm.

 

[milo]

, so I see you're very stubborn when you're proven wrong. The FACTS are: Dier is a defensive minded player, he primarily sits in front of the defence, his main skills are tackling, intercepting, playing it simple to the closest player to him. With him in the team even mason looked good and unleashed to be more attacking, we have been ,We are better defensively compared to the horror act season with such a defensive minded midfielder.

Now, because you think you are always right about everything and you explicitly said we didn't need a dm, you refuse to admit that having a dm has improved us tenfold. But it has. Be happy about it, we're better with a dm.

These are Dier's passes against Arsenal. Are these playing it simple to the player closest to him?