I only argue with people that are wrong.
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The Defensive Midfielder
- Thread starter Modric THFC
- Start date
parklane1
Vic Buckingham
So you must have quite a few arguments with yourself in the mirror as I thought.
Seriously, is that the level here?
I'm used to people dismissing all the evidence and arguing "because I said so" without anything to back them up, but I'm not stooping to that.
parklane1
Vic Buckingham
Gazzasrightboot
Pascal Chimbonda
I find this a strange debate to be honest, but will wade in with my size 11s....
I don't think that the reason we are more defensively sound is massively because of one thing. I think it is a combination of things such as:
1. Our players are much more confident and have adapted to Poch's pressing. Proof - our pressing has been there for all to see;
2. We didn't start the season with passengers like Capoue, Kaboul, Paulinho and Ade i.e. people that didn't press or were just unsuited to Poch's tactics;
3. We have Alderweireld who is a better central defender than Fazio, Kaboul, Chiriches and dare I say Dier;
4. Dier, Dembele, Lamela have been revelations in their work-rate compared to what we are used to. Dier seems to be everywhere on the field (in attacking and defending positions) and seems to be making things tick over and providing an easy outlet for Toby or Jan if they can't find any of the fullbacks; and
5. Our players have that one further year of experience. It's not as if last season was a disaster!
So....do I think Dier is a DM. No, but I don't care either. He's a bloody effective CM whichever way you look at it. Is Dembele an absolute monster of a midfielder...Yes he is and he is proving his worth. Name a replacement that we will be able to get for £10m or less.
I don't think that the reason we are more defensively sound is massively because of one thing. I think it is a combination of things such as:
1. Our players are much more confident and have adapted to Poch's pressing. Proof - our pressing has been there for all to see;
2. We didn't start the season with passengers like Capoue, Kaboul, Paulinho and Ade i.e. people that didn't press or were just unsuited to Poch's tactics;
3. We have Alderweireld who is a better central defender than Fazio, Kaboul, Chiriches and dare I say Dier;
4. Dier, Dembele, Lamela have been revelations in their work-rate compared to what we are used to. Dier seems to be everywhere on the field (in attacking and defending positions) and seems to be making things tick over and providing an easy outlet for Toby or Jan if they can't find any of the fullbacks; and
5. Our players have that one further year of experience. It's not as if last season was a disaster!
So....do I think Dier is a DM. No, but I don't care either. He's a bloody effective CM whichever way you look at it. Is Dembele an absolute monster of a midfielder...Yes he is and he is proving his worth. Name a replacement that we will be able to get for £10m or less.
Pirate55
The Last Man Standing 17/18
A great post Gazzarb. I think the one thing you have missed out in your analysis though is the work Dier does filling in between the centre halves when one goes out to cover the full back. It is this "in-filling" that makes him more of a true DM and his cover in this area differentiates him from the weaknesses we had with the Masaleb pairing.
But to bring the thread back on track, your comments on Dembele are right on the money
But to bring the thread back on track, your comments on Dembele are right on the money
Pirate55
The Last Man Standing 17/18
The role of DM is not defined by the old fashioned stopper any more. Dier most certainly is the epitomy of the modern DM IMO.He is the only "natural" DM we have at the club. All the others are variations on CMs. One of the principal reasons we looked so shaky at the back last year was because we were asking CMs to play an unnatural pivot to incorporate a DM tracking role with which they were not familiar.
What is the role of a modern DM?
Seems to me as if you're trying really hard to shoe horn the term DM around what Dier does, just so you can use the term DM.
What Dier does is precisely what a modern central midfielder does, a bit of defending, a bit of passing, a bit of movement with the ball at feet.
You don't need to make up a new definition for the term defensive midfielder, because we already have a load of terms for what Dier does. Misappropriating the wrong name just as an excuse to use that name is more than a little pointless.
I could just as easily say Dier is a goalkeeper. Not in the traditional sense of what a goalkeeper is, but the modern form of goalkeeper - a definition I've just made up to fit around what Dier does.
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bennysleftfoot
Steven Caulker
a modern dm I assume would operate predominantly in his own half, from 18y box to halfway line.
his main duty would be to shield the back 4, breaking up opponents attacks with interceptions and tackles.
he would then recycle the ball and keep possession, short range passes into his back 4 and to his midfield partners.
he should also be able to spring counter attacks with accurate long range passes.
a modern dm should encompass the best parts of a deep lieing playmaker and a ball winner rolled into one.
a modern cm would cover 18y box to 18y box helping in both attack and defence. the cm should be more of a 'complete' player. able to win the ball, start attacks from deep, find a killer pass further up the field and also get on the end of chances in and around the box.
if your looking for examples maybe xabi alonso dm, Yaya toure box to box cm.
just my opinion.
his main duty would be to shield the back 4, breaking up opponents attacks with interceptions and tackles.
he would then recycle the ball and keep possession, short range passes into his back 4 and to his midfield partners.
he should also be able to spring counter attacks with accurate long range passes.
a modern dm should encompass the best parts of a deep lieing playmaker and a ball winner rolled into one.
a modern cm would cover 18y box to 18y box helping in both attack and defence. the cm should be more of a 'complete' player. able to win the ball, start attacks from deep, find a killer pass further up the field and also get on the end of chances in and around the box.
if your looking for examples maybe xabi alonso dm, Yaya toure box to box cm.
just my opinion.
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braineclipse
Willie Hall
For me the term "DM" is rather unclear and I don't think people are good enough at clarifying what they mean when they use.
It can be used to describe a position on the field. For example the deepest of 3 central midfielders in a 4-3-3/4-1-2-2-1 type formation. He's the most defensive midfielder, as in the one furthest back. In that position many different players can play very different roles. In a counter attacking "smaller" team it can be a destroyer with very little responsibility on the ball. In a ball playing team is can be one of the best passers in the setting the tempo, playing passes through levels of pressure, always being available to receive the ball etc.
It can also be used to more desrcibe a role. A defensive midfielder is someone whose role is primarily defensive, someone more limited on the ball with clear defensive strengths. That role can be played in multiple positions in various formations. You could have two of these in a very defensive 4-2-3-1 or in a 4-4-2 where you play direct long balls and largely bypass the midfield and leave creativity to the wingers (I'm looking at you Tony Pulis).
Personally I much prefer "deep" midfielder to describe the position on the pitch of a player. As in the two deep midfielders in a 4-2-3-1 or the one deep midfielder in a 4-3-3. It makes it clear that it's not a role, but a position.
Defensive midfielder is a fine description of a role, but gets confusing because the term is used in different ways.
Gutter Boy
Tim Sherwood
For me a DM operates in a classic diamond formation. Opposite an AM. Like Ince-Gascoigne
CMs are when at least two midfielders share the defensive responsibilities, even though they may do this in different ways e.g. Carrick-Jenas or Modric-Sandro. Carrick and Modric had defensive positioning, whilst Jenas and Sandro were pressers. All 4 were CMs though because there shared responsibilities between their roles.
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Absolutely. I have no issue with people using the term DM to describe someone who isn't a defensive midfielder (other than its inaccuracy) as long as they're consistent with the use of that term.
What I object to is being told that we need a midfielder dedicated to defending - a DM - in order to improve our team. Then being told when we use a midfielder who is clearly not dedicated to defending that DM now means something else and therefore they were correct.
Finney Is Back
Luka Modric
I think Dier's primary job is to defend. For example I wouldn't expect to see him getting into the box to get on the end of a cross (set pieces aside) or getting himself ahead of our centre forward. Whereas I would expect to see every other midfield player in our team doing both of those things (and indeed have seen them all do those things). Dier clearly has good passing ability and that just makes him even more effective. Incidentally I would (and did) refer to Carrick as a DM and would label Alonso as such as well.
Pirate55
The Last Man Standing 17/18
But that is just it. We now have a CM dedicated to defending first and foremost ( i.e. a DM, whether you want to call it a Defensive midfielder or Deep lying midfielder) and bingo we look more solid as a defensive unit.
Gutter Boy
Tim Sherwood
I still think that's more to do with a combination of Alder at CB, Walker at RB and organised pressing from the AMs, more than anything Dier particularly offers which Bentaleb didn't.
milo
Jack L. Jones
Do you think that you would be able to pick out a Dier heatmap from ones for Bentaleb and Mason if their names were removed?
Gutter Boy
Tim Sherwood
I don't think so. To me people thin Dier is more defensive because of his build and because he goes to ground more often. The role he plays is identical to the other 3. Look at his beautiful through ball for Kane against Spain for an example of him getting up-and-around the opponent's box too.
I made a point of watch Dier and Mason's positioning against Anderlecht. It was still very much 1 go, 1 stay, rather than designated back and forwards.