The Defensive Midfielder

[billyiddo]

We didn't ask either of our CMs last season to play the role which Dier is currently - they both shared the defensive and offensive duties, so comparing either individually to Dier doesn't tell you anything really as you're comparing chalk and cheese.

Would be interesting to see how either would fare in place of Dier, with the same instructions (and less offensive responsibilities) - in fact that's possibly the position Bentaleb will have to compete for when he's back from injury

 

[parklane1]

We didn't ask either of our CMs last season to play the role which Dier is currently - they both shared the defensive and offensive duties, so comparing either individually to Dier doesn't tell you anything really as you're comparing chalk and cheese.

Would be interesting to see how either would fare in place of Dier, with the same instructions (and less offensive responsibilities) - in fact that's possibly the position Bentaleb will have to compete for when he's back from injury

Disagree, what it tells us is that Dier has a defensive mindset and can see danger something Mason and Bentaleb failed to do last season.

 

[billyiddo]

Disagree, what it tells us is that Dier has a defensive mindset and can see danger something Mason and Bentaleb failed to do last season.

Yes but as I said they play completely different roles - if either Mason or Bentaleb were given the DM role which Dier currently plays and had less to worry about offensively then it'd free them up to focus on spotting danger/tracking runners/breaking up play etc

 

[parklane1]

Yes but as I said they play completely different roles - if either Mason or Bentaleb were given the DM role which Dier currently plays and had less to worry about offensively then it'd free them up to focus on spotting danger/tracking runners/breaking up play etc

I still would disagree, players have different mindsets and Mason and Bentaleb were so open and ball watching last season and were not tuned in to runners. They may have skills that Dier does not have in other areas but they are different with different skills.

 

[billyiddo]

I still would disagree, players have different mindsets and Mason and Bentaleb were so open and ball watching last season and were not tuned in to runners. They may have skills that Dier does not have in other areas but they are different with different skills.

I think it it was more to do with the complex nature of the role they were asked to perform getting away from them a little tbh - two young/inexperienced players in their first full EPL season thrown in at the deep end - having to defend and attack in tandem with someone as equally new to the role and the first team - they both performed well sporadically defensively, tackling/tracking runners/intercepting etc - so it wasn't like they couldn't do those things, it was just working on the partnership and who should be doing what at what time that was the problem IMV

The new setup with more defined individual roles for the CM positions takes away a lot of those problems

 

[SPURSphenomenon]

I think it it was more to do with the complex nature of the role they were asked to perform getting away from them a little tbh - two young/inexperienced players in their first full EPL season thrown in at the deep end - having to defend and attack in tandem with someone as equally new to the role and the first team - they both performed well sporadically defensively, tackling/tracking runners/intercepting etc - so it wasn't like they couldn't do those things, it was just working on the partnership and who should be doing what at what time that was the problem IMV

The new setup with more defined individual roles for the CM positions takes away a lot of those problems

Agree with this, I think it helps that Dele Alli is so box to box and direct it provides the balance. I think that Mason/Bentaleb have their merits when it comes to dictating play, and certainly against smaller opposition thats an attribute we definitely need to utilise if we're seeing out a win.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

It helps that all the players know the system now and get it, and the majority had a full preseason

It also helps that there is competition which drives out complacency and clearly no bad apples to rock the boat

I like the fact that our midfield have contrasting options

 

[90291Spur]

It helps that all the players know the system now and get it, and the majority had a full preseason

It also helps that there is competition which drives out complacency and clearly no bad apples to rock the boat

I like the fact that our midfield have contrasting options

Mixed metaphor of the week! Take a bow, son!

 

[GrimsbyYid]

Hmmm, I'm with parklane, I don't see this as a tactical shift from poch, just much more balance in the players in that position. Bentaleb and Mason could play together and it'd be the same as last season - no protecting the defenders, not linking to the attack and NI,lifting each other's strengths. Now obviously I'm not a big fan of masons (in response to the earlier discussion Alli is blatantly on another level entirely to what Mason will ever achieve) but seeing masons best performance alongside Dier confirms it further for me. This is why I think it'd essential we buy another DM - Dembele could play it, but it restricts his immense qualities. Bentaleb I want freed, I think he'd move up another level.

 

[parklane1]

I think it it was more to do with the complex nature of the role they were asked to perform getting away from them a little tbh - two young/inexperienced players in their first full EPL season thrown in at the deep end - having to defend and attack in tandem with someone as equally new to the role and the first team - they both performed well sporadically defensively, tackling/tracking runners/intercepting etc - so it wasn't like they couldn't do those things, it was just working on the partnership and who should be doing what at what time that was the problem IMV

The new setup with more defined individual roles for the CM positions takes away a lot of those problems

Still disagree players have different skills and because of that are usually suited to a position, Mason and Bentaleb do not possess a defensive mindset unlike Dier who does. But Stop! Hammer time and we will have to agree to disagree.

 

[parklane1]

Hmmm, I'm with parklane, I don't see this as a tactical shift from poch, just much more balance in the players in that position. Bentaleb and Mason could play together and it'd be the same as last season - no protecting the defenders, not linking to the attack and NI,lifting each other's strengths. Now obviously I'm not a big fan of masons (in response to the earlier discussion Alli is blatantly on another level entirely to what Mason will ever achieve) but seeing masons best performance alongside Dier confirms it further for me. This is why I think it'd essential we buy another DM - Dembele could play it, but it restricts his immense qualities. Bentaleb I want freed, I think he'd move up another level.

Bingo.

 

[90291Spur]

Still disagree players have different skills and because of that are usually suited to a position, Mason and Bentaleb do not possess a defensive mindset unlike Dier who does. But Stop! Hammer time and we will have to agree to disagree.

Also some players improve with playing time. Mason and Bentaleb are still very inexperienced and might, with time and Poch's coaching (and their own hard work) become better players.

 

[parklane1]

Also some players improve with playing time. Mason and Bentaleb are still very inexperienced and might, with time and Poch's coaching (and their own hard work) become better players.

They may well do just that, but I doubt it will be as defensive minded players.

 

[milo]

I don't agree. I think that our biggest problem last season was an unsettled and constantly changing defence and a team getting used to want Poch wants. Dier has obviously been a revelation in central midfield and Alli has exceeded all expectations but Mason played very well at the beginning of the season and has looked good since coming back in the last week and a bit.

I think that it would be a mistake writing off Bentaleb as cover for Dier now. We have not seen him in front of an established Vertonghen and Alderweireld. The team is more settled this season and playing better. He is also a very young player and will get better.

Cover does not have to be like for like and besides, the other options currently are not like for like either.

 

[parklane1]

As I have said before I have nothing against either mason or Bentaleb and I am sure they are good players, but imo they are better suited to going forward and further up the pitch ( especially Mason).

 

[billyiddo]

Hmmm, I'm with parklane, I don't see this as a tactical shift from poch, just much more balance in the players in that position. Bentaleb and Mason could play together and it'd be the same as last season - no protecting the defenders, not linking to the attack and NI,lifting each other's strengths. Now obviously I'm not a big fan of masons (in response to the earlier discussion Alli is blatantly on another level entirely to what Mason will ever achieve) but seeing masons best performance alongside Dier confirms it further for me. This is why I think it'd essential we buy another DM - Dembele could play it, but it restricts his immense qualities. Bentaleb I want freed, I think he'd move up another level.

You're not paying attention if you don't see the change in our midfield tactics - last season Mason and Bentaleb were playing as a pivot, sharing responsibilities : both attacking the final third, both defending, both moving the ball forward to our attacking players and so on - a complete split, whilst one was up attacking the other was supposed to be providing cover - the problems came about because they couldn't strike the right balance and were often both attacking at the same time leaving a hole behind them - when they got the balance right we looked sound as both are capable defensively. This season we're playing Dier as a defensive midfielder whose job is to protect the defence and marshal the centre of the pitch - often dropping back to form a back 3 if the FBs are pushing up to provide width - Alli on the other hand is free to focus on the attacking parts of the game and not have to keep track of where Dier is and get back to cover whilst it's his 'turn' to push forward.

I'd imagine it's a difficult way of playing for young players, a lot to think about and a lot that can go wrong. Much happier as we're playing now but it's not all down to simply putting Dier in to the team - there has been a change in our play, in midfield and the team as a whole, which has made us a stronger defensive unit.

 

[Jordinho]

You're not paying attention if you don't see the change in our midfield tactics - last season Mason and Bentaleb were playing as a pivot, sharing responsibilities : both attacking the final third, both defending, both moving the ball forward to our attacking players and so on - a complete split, whilst one was up attacking the other was supposed to be providing cover - the problems came about because they couldn't strike the right balance and were often both attacking at the same time leaving a hole behind them - when they got the balance right we looked sound as both are capable defensively. This season we're playing Dier as a defensive midfielder whose job is to protect the defence and marshal the centre of the pitch - often dropping back to form a back 3 if the FBs are pushing up to provide width - Alli on the other hand is free to focus on the attacking parts of the game and not have to keep track of where Dier is and get back to cover whilst it's his 'turn' to push forward.

I'd imagine it's a difficult way of playing for young players, a lot to think about and a lot that can go wrong. Much happier as we're playing now but it's not all down to simply putting Dier in to the team - there has been a change in our play, in midfield and the team as a whole, which has made us a stronger defensive unit.

Just look at the Liverpool game when Dier didn't play. Nobody were dropping back the way he does. With Dier on the pitch it's more of 4-1-4-1/4-3-3, otherwise it's 4-2-3-1.

 

[glasgowspur]

The mason Bentaleb thing I think is part of what the article that was posted somewhere today about the Spurs way is all about. They lacked discipline to play defensive. They went forward at every oppurtunity with no regard for what was happening behind them. In fairness to them so did rose, walker, Townsend et al. Was this taught at the club? And the crowd urged them to as well.

 

[SpursNorway]

You're not paying attention if you don't see the change in our midfield tactics - last season Mason and Bentaleb were playing as a pivot, sharing responsibilities : both attacking the final third, both defending, both moving the ball forward to our attacking players and so on - a complete split, whilst one was up attacking the other was supposed to be providing cover - the problems came about because they couldn't strike the right balance and were often both attacking at the same time leaving a hole behind them - when they got the balance right we looked sound as both are capable defensively. This season we're playing Dier as a defensive midfielder whose job is to protect the defence and marshal the centre of the pitch - often dropping back to form a back 3 if the FBs are pushing up to provide width - Alli on the other hand is free to focus on the attacking parts of the game and not have to keep track of where Dier is and get back to cover whilst it's his 'turn' to push forward.

I'd imagine it's a difficult way of playing for young players, a lot to think about and a lot that can go wrong. Much happier as we're playing now but it's not all down to simply putting Dier in to the team - there has been a change in our play, in midfield and the team as a whole, which has made us a stronger defensive unit.

I agree with you that we have changed system a bit, with Dier doing all the "dirty" work as a defined DM this season. I however dont think Bentaleb/Mason would have done better, doing it like Alli/Dembele and Dier are doing this season.
Why? Because non of Bentaleb or Mason has got the physical presence and calmness of Dier, and even though Dier has comitted some errors with the ball, I think Benta/Mason is players NOW playing with a greater risk in their game.
Some of the errors last season was one of them playing bad passes or losing the ball in dangerous positions. And both of the was caught ball watching too much.
They can of course learn doing the simple passes easier, and I really hope they do. Especially Bentaleb for me can become a brilliant CM in the future.
But for now I think the system and the players in it, is better than Bentaleb/Mason was for us last season. And I dont think it would have been any different playing with any of them as a DM.

 

[billyiddo]

I agree with you that we have changed system a bit, with Dier doing all the "dirty" work as a defined DM this season. I however dont think Bentaleb/Mason would have done better, doing it like Alli/Dembele and Dier are doing this season.
Why? Because non of Bentaleb or Mason has got the physical presence and calmness of Dier, and even though Dier has comitted some errors with the ball, I think Benta/Mason is players NOW playing with a greater risk in their game.
Some of the errors last season was one of them playing bad passes or losing the ball in dangerous positions. And both of the was caught ball watching too much.
They can of course learn doing the simple passes easier, and I really hope they do. Especially Bentaleb for me can become a brilliant CM in the future.
But for now I think the system and the players in it, is better than Bentaleb/Mason was for us last season. And I dont think it would have been any different playing with any of them as a DM.

I agree with a lot of that - and touching on the problems/errors you point out - I put that down to the way we asked them to play rather than any serious problem with either players defensive abilities, though would agree on Mason being more of a attacking centre mid than a box 2 box type. Bentaleb however could play that role and even a more defensive role IMV and could see him stepping in for Dier at times this season and performing well.