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Politics, politics, politics (so long and thanks for all the fish)

Eh?
Is that a commitment inequality over meritocracy?
Surely the classic definition of right wing would mean meritocracy (best person for the job regardless of race, creed or colour) is not something they would be committed to.

I meant them to be the same - just one is a negative phrase, one a positive. It's a belief that the more privileged/right racial profile/capable/hardworking etc. people in society should receive material reward and more power on that basis. That's the fundamental of a rightest approach. In contrast to the left wing belief in equality
 
What, right wing extremists in the Tory Party? Come on, move on, nothing to see here. Wow look over there, that Corbyn fellow is a communist stooge, no he's a fascist proxy, he's definitely an anti semite.
 
I meant them to be the same - just one is a negative phrase, one a positive. It's a belief that the more privileged/right racial profile/capable/hardworking etc. people in society should receive material reward and more power on that basis. That's the fundamental of a rightest approach. In contrast to the left wing belief in equality

Bone of those describe meritocracy, the best person for the job.
You're sating the right would give on the basis of keeping it within their own and the left would give it to whoever needed it to keep everyone equal, even if they are poor at the job. Neither of those are a positive long term solution for society.
 
Bone of those describe meritocracy, the best person for the job.
You're sating the right would give on the basis of keeping it within their own and the left would give it to whoever needed it to keep everyone equal, even if they are poor at the job. Neither of those are a positive long term solution for society.

But still no one has really implemented anything better. Right wing governments deliver malevolence, left wing governments deliver incompetence.
 
That's not a link as you expressed it in your op.
Spoutng bs like this will not attract the centre voter that Labour needs to win an election.
If anything it will put them off. Tommy Robinson has as much to do with the core Conservative voter as Derek Hatton had with Labour voters in the 80s.

You'll have to quote which bit you think is bullsh1t, because I thought I was pretty clear in outlining the links (political views, Bannon etc.) And let's not lose sight of the original point. The political violence in this country is on the right. There is no left-wing equivalent to the violence of the far right in the UK today.

Anyway, balls to this, the football is on!
 
IRA giving some Brexit love.

Seriously is there anything good about Brexit? Just one concrete thing? @Grays_1890 said he was sure there was long term, but could not name or explain it. On the flip side...wow where do you start? Prospect of IRA bombings....the break up of the United Kingdom....more expensive food, imports, holidays...a worse UK economy....loss of the UK running the European Satellite programme...UK job losses...no free mobile roaming....etc

5 years ago if you'd said to people, would you back something with no clear benifit to the UK, that jeopardises our wealth and all of the above, no one in their right mind would backed that. So how the fuk did we end up here!? With people insisting Brexit has long term merits but not being able to say what they are, while we insight a new terriorist campaign on the UK. It's almost tragic.
 
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You'll have to quote which bit you think is bullsh1t, because I thought I was pretty clear in outlining the links (political views, Bannon etc.) And let's not lose sight of the original point. The political violence in this country is on the right. There is no left-wing equivalent to the violence of the far right in the UK today.

Anyway, balls to this, the football is on!

Whether it's bad/good or indifferent is a matter of opinion and we all have differing ones. But compare the coverage. One is covered, barely acknowledged and moved on with quickly (snooty/Bannon/Tommy Robinson). One (Corbyn meeting with terrorists) whips up hysteria and frenzy and is gone over again and again -- even in the context of Corbyn being, basically, a pacifist.

Has jrm ever met tr?

There aren't a dozen pages in the Mirror/Guardian dedicated to linking the Far-Right with the ERG and then joining that up with the ERG holding sway over the government. They give it a little coverage and then move on swiftly. How many pages did the Daily Mail dedicate to paint Corbyn as the most dangerous man in Britain at the last election? I think it was about the first 14 pages of the paper. Picked up by blowhards like Humphries on the Today Program, which then gets regurgitated everywhere else, the news cycle feeding itself. All in all, trying to have us believe that the extremists and violence is on the left, despite the facts saying it's on the right.
How close on the political spectrum are erg and the edl? Has the erg ever given any indication that they support anything tr or the edl do?
I dislike the far right because they are violent fascists, evidenced by their murder of a Labour MP. You have no equivalent example in the UK today so you have chosen to live on planet Gutter Boy and talk about the IRA 3 decades ago.
The far right (not fringe, far) are well represented in Parliament by libertarian space cadets that make up the ERG, who hold sway over a weak Tory Prime Minister. Many of their views overlap and they co-operate with the same political strategists. As far as I am aware, Labour policy isn't influenced by the IRA or anybody else. Whereas the ERG -- and subsequently, the Tory government -- are influenced by those who back the far-right both here and in the USA. And it's not just the ERG, there are others in the Tory Party. But the ERG provide the clearest example of the overlap between the far-right and the right-wing of the Tory Party and their influence over this government.
So what you are saying is that jrm and the erg are far right neo nazis who are prepared to incite murder and violence.
You can't sweepingly state that everyone to the right of you are violent right wing nutters. Are there some, yes definitely no sane person could argue different (note I said sane person so I'm not counting @scaramanga or @Gutter Boy), but it is as dumb to say that every left wing labbour supporter is an anti semite.
Both parties are suffering from the same problems, a perception of moving from the centre ground, a ground most of the electorate feel most comfortable with, and into the fringes or margins or far extremes depending on your point of view. Most people won't vote that, on either side. Why do you think the last elections have been so close.
Neil kinnock or John Smith would walk a GE for Labour just now.
Also both parties, although I think its true across all politics now, play the man and not the policies. People like trump, BoJo, Lord snooty love that, it suits them down to the ground. They don't care what people think of them, they're not the least interested. In fact it builds a seige mentality in their voter base. It distracts from what they are doing.
Focus on the policies, expose them, ignore the bluster and bumpf, attack the policies.

Your posts, I could almost call them rants, play into their hands, they make you and your points an easy target for snipers like scara (and yes me, but I will ridicule what I see on either side if I think warrants it).
 
IRA giving some Brexit love.

Seriously is there anything good about Brexit? Just one concrete thing? @Grays_1890 said he was sure there was long term, but could not name or explain it. On the flip side...wow where do you start? Prospect of IRA bombings....the break up of the United Kingdom....more expensive food, imports, holidays...a worse UK economy....loss of the UK running the European Satellite programme...UK job losses...no free mobile roaming....etc

5 years ago if you'd said to people, would you back something with no clear benifit to the UK, that jeopardises our wealth and all of the above, no one in their right mind would backed that. So how the fuk did we end up here!? With people insisting Brexit has long term merits but not being able to say what they are, while we insight a new terriorist campaign on the UK. It's almost tragic.

Can I just ask, where does your love of the EU come from? I understand where Milo comes from now since he explained that his partner is Czech. And the only other passionate Europhile I've ever come across is Nick Clegg, who similarly has a Spanish wife (although I know the same applies to Farage). Do you have a similar personal attachment, or have you worked at the EU?

I used to spend a bit of time round the Commission because my aunt worked there. That's where a lot of my criticism of it come from - I saw first-hand what a filthy pit of corporate lobbying it is (Westminster is bastion of integrity by comparison).
 
Agree or disagree with this?

The truth is out about Brexit – but there is a narrow road back to sanity

Andrew Graham


The options are few and far between. This parliamentary compromise is potentially the only face-saver for the UK

In yet another attempt to hold her fractured cabinet together, the prime minister has now offered “meaningful votes”: on her deal, on no deal, and on a short extension to article 50. None of these has moved her basic position one iota. All this means is that if she does not get her way we will be in exactly the same position as now, but with the cliff edge at the end of June instead of March. Even worse, the possibility for a longer extension, and the space that it would give for a new deal, will have been thrown away.

For something to change, something has to give. The so-called Kyle-Wilson amendment – under which the May deal would pass the Commons, then be subject to a public vote – offers one of the very few ways forward immediately available. To see why, recall David Lammy’s exhortation to parliament in January that we must tell the truth even when others passionately disagree. The following are two deep truths about Brexit that swaths of MPs from all parts of the political spectrum continue to deny or ignore.

First, the Good Friday agreement of 1998 changed everything. Before that, the UK was free to repeal the 1972 European Communities Act, and to do whatever else it wished. After that agreement, the only Brexit that will not fatally undermine that delicately constructed peace in Northern Ireland has to be one that keeps us permanently aligned with the EU on both external tariffs and internal standards.

Second, large numbers of those voting in the referendum knew nothing about the first truth. This is not because they were stupid or ill educated or deaf. Nor is it because they did not pay attention to what was being said. With a tiny handful of worthy exceptions, neither the press, nor MPs nor remainers nor Brexiters mentioned the Good Friday agreement. Still less did anyone press home the fact that, because of the agreement, the only Brexit that does not contain the potential to destroy the union of Great Britain and Northern Ireland is a customs union (either explicitly in name or, de facto, in a sideways deal such as the backstop).

There are two more truths about Brexit that are now recognised, at least in parliament. First, to leave with no deal is now shown to be such an economic and political disaster that the chances of a parliamentary majority for it are close to nil. Second, May’s deal, in the form of the withdrawal agreement and the backstop, is the only Brexit deal currently agreed with the EU. But this has no majority in parliament. Yet two years ago parliament voted by a large majority to invoke article 50 because it felt honour-bound to respect the result of the referendum. The net result is a democratic crisis: parliament said it was committed to Brexit but, at least while May remains prime minister and wedded to her red lines and her deal, it cannot deliver it.

Now return to the Kyle-Wilson amendment. This is the only option currently on offer that has the potential to restore an element of sanity to British democracy. Without it May’s deal has no majority, and there is no other exit deal currently agreed with the EU. Provided the amendment is carefully worded so that MPs are free thereafter to vote and campaign as they choose, May’s deal will almost certainly gain a parliamentary majority, not least because the bulk of MPs remain very reluctant to overturn the result of the referendum.

The second great advantage of the Kyle-Wilson amendment is that it recognises that since 2016 the force of the facts has changed our understanding of the situation beyond recognition. Back then, the electorate was presented with what seemed like an option to “walk away”. However, the reality, still denied by the Jacob Rees-Mogg’s European Research Group, especially in its three new tests, is that full independence without any form of customs union involves tearing up the Good Friday agreement. In addition, we now know that to exit with no deal is so damaging that it has to be off the agenda.

What the Kyle-Wilson amendment does is give the people a chance to choose between real options: either Brexit, via May’s deal, or remain. Provided the amendment is in place, both are on the table, both are agreed by the EU, and both are implementable now.

And it has a third advantage: it offers at least some hope of mending bridges. If, during the debate preceding the public vote, more MPs were to speak the truth about the Good Friday agreement, some Brexiters who want greater freedom than May’s deal offers might come to understand why any version of Brexit has to be so tightly constrained. Furthermore, if the outcome of the public vote were to be victory for May’s deal, no rational remainer could complain about the lack of democracy. Alternatively, if remain were to win, there might even be some Brexiters who would come to see that, in reality, remain gives the UK every bit as much control over its own destiny as the vassal state Brexit that May now offers.

The fourth consideration is this: much of the public thinks that if May’s deal is passed we enter a period of calm. Reality is the opposite. The withdrawal agreement leads into many further years of complex negotiations. As people realise this, they will look for someone to blame. Those MPs who are ambivalent about May’s deal might well prefer that they and their party are not in the firing line. Giving the electorate the opportunity to confirm May’s deal (or not) is a wise choice.

The final attraction of the amendment is possibly the most compelling. Constitutional experts continue to assert that the UK is a parliamentary democracy based on the election of MPs as representatives rather than as delegates. But once you have allowed referendums, you cannot ignore their results. Parliament has to listen and to be seen to listen. The attraction is that, if the amendment is adopted, parliament runs the process, is seen to be doing its best to listen and sets out the parameters but then, at least on this occasion, gives the people the final say. Some, perhaps many, will complain. But they would undoubtedly complain far more about any of the other options.
 
Can I just ask, where does your love of the EU come from? I understand where Milo comes from now since he explained that his partner is Czech. And the only other passionate Europhile I've ever come across is Nick Clegg, who similarly has a Spanish wife (although I know the same applies to Farage). Do you have a similar personal attachment, or have you worked at the EU?

I used to spend a bit of time round the Commission because my aunt worked there. That's where a lot of my criticism of it come from - I saw first-hand what a filthy pit of corporate lobbying it is (Westminster is bastion of integrity by comparison).

You could write for the Sun with that kind of sentence! What corporate lobbying did you encounter? Or is it just rhetoric?

I don't love the EU. I just know a bad deal when I see one. If you talk realities not jingoistic rhetoric it is simple to see the EU gives the UK more than it takes away. And the 'losses' are so small - and so overblown by the likes of the Sun - which presents people with a totally warped image of what the EU does. The size of Birgingham council it does a lot of boring stuff to do with trade, pollution, international affiars (like getting Turkey to take Syrian refugees so European doesn't have to) etc. But why focus on reality when you can win attention, appeal to national patriotism, by calling out those forigners in their "filty pit of corporate lobbying"? It's not reality. Its a comic book version of reality. And every writer or commentator who makes such statements can't outline anything positive about Brexit. Instead its all jingoistic nonsense.

It is clear what we lose from Brexit - good friday agreement, freedom to travel unencumbered (could drive into France today if you wished to - wouldn't need new insurance special driving liscence to queue up at customs etc), cooperation around pollution, workers rights, standing up to Russia, being able to shape Global standard for medice and other regulations etc etc etc Even if its a lame list, why can't you outline what we get back from Brexit? For all these things we lose, is there really nothing of substance in return?!?
 
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More the Guardian: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/may/08/lobbyists-european-parliament-brussels-corporate

It's just everywhere you go there. Corporations ensuring the EU police the market to enable them to make maximum profit. It's become the primary function of the organisation. The interests of society are nowhere.

Would you say it is fortunate that the EU Commission is not directly elected and therefore not swayed as much by such outside forces? For example as in the US where gun and oil firms lobby both houses and pay for their campaigns?

But you did write "first hand". What did you see first hand? What did you see in westminster that you compared it to?

The 5 year old article you quote starts off talking about the "eye watering amounts" people were paying mobile phone companies when they moved around in Europe. Presumably it says how phone companies tried to stop any change to such charges? I couldn't be bothered to read on. History shows the EU did change things and got rid of roaming costs completely despite any lobbying, so your point is what exactly?
 
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Agree or disagree with this?

The truth is out about Brexit – but there is a narrow road back to sanity

Andrew Graham


The options are few and far between. This parliamentary compromise is potentially the only face-saver for the UK

In yet another attempt to hold her fractured cabinet together, the prime minister has now offered “meaningful votes”: on her deal, on no deal, and on a short extension to article 50. None of these has moved her basic position one iota. All this means is that if she does not get her way we will be in exactly the same position as now, but with the cliff edge at the end of June instead of March. Even worse, the possibility for a longer extension, and the space that it would give for a new deal, will have been thrown away.

For something to change, something has to give. The so-called Kyle-Wilson amendment – under which the May deal would pass the Commons, then be subject to a public vote – offers one of the very few ways forward immediately available. To see why, recall David Lammy’s exhortation to parliament in January that we must tell the truth even when others passionately disagree. The following are two deep truths about Brexit that swaths of MPs from all parts of the political spectrum continue to deny or ignore.

First, the Good Friday agreement of 1998 changed everything. Before that, the UK was free to repeal the 1972 European Communities Act, and to do whatever else it wished. After that agreement, the only Brexit that will not fatally undermine that delicately constructed peace in Northern Ireland has to be one that keeps us permanently aligned with the EU on both external tariffs and internal standards.

Second, large numbers of those voting in the referendum knew nothing about the first truth. This is not because they were stupid or ill educated or deaf. Nor is it because they did not pay attention to what was being said. With a tiny handful of worthy exceptions, neither the press, nor MPs nor remainers nor Brexiters mentioned the Good Friday agreement. Still less did anyone press home the fact that, because of the agreement, the only Brexit that does not contain the potential to destroy the union of Great Britain and Northern Ireland is a customs union (either explicitly in name or, de facto, in a sideways deal such as the backstop).

There are two more truths about Brexit that are now recognised, at least in parliament. First, to leave with no deal is now shown to be such an economic and political disaster that the chances of a parliamentary majority for it are close to nil. Second, May’s deal, in the form of the withdrawal agreement and the backstop, is the only Brexit deal currently agreed with the EU. But this has no majority in parliament. Yet two years ago parliament voted by a large majority to invoke article 50 because it felt honour-bound to respect the result of the referendum. The net result is a democratic crisis: parliament said it was committed to Brexit but, at least while May remains prime minister and wedded to her red lines and her deal, it cannot deliver it.

Now return to the Kyle-Wilson amendment. This is the only option currently on offer that has the potential to restore an element of sanity to British democracy. Without it May’s deal has no majority, and there is no other exit deal currently agreed with the EU. Provided the amendment is carefully worded so that MPs are free thereafter to vote and campaign as they choose, May’s deal will almost certainly gain a parliamentary majority, not least because the bulk of MPs remain very reluctant to overturn the result of the referendum.

The second great advantage of the Kyle-Wilson amendment is that it recognises that since 2016 the force of the facts has changed our understanding of the situation beyond recognition. Back then, the electorate was presented with what seemed like an option to “walk away”. However, the reality, still denied by the Jacob Rees-Mogg’s European Research Group, especially in its three new tests, is that full independence without any form of customs union involves tearing up the Good Friday agreement. In addition, we now know that to exit with no deal is so damaging that it has to be off the agenda.

What the Kyle-Wilson amendment does is give the people a chance to choose between real options: either Brexit, via May’s deal, or remain. Provided the amendment is in place, both are on the table, both are agreed by the EU, and both are implementable now.

And it has a third advantage: it offers at least some hope of mending bridges. If, during the debate preceding the public vote, more MPs were to speak the truth about the Good Friday agreement, some Brexiters who want greater freedom than May’s deal offers might come to understand why any version of Brexit has to be so tightly constrained. Furthermore, if the outcome of the public vote were to be victory for May’s deal, no rational remainer could complain about the lack of democracy. Alternatively, if remain were to win, there might even be some Brexiters who would come to see that, in reality, remain gives the UK every bit as much control over its own destiny as the vassal state Brexit that May now offers.

The fourth consideration is this: much of the public thinks that if May’s deal is passed we enter a period of calm. Reality is the opposite. The withdrawal agreement leads into many further years of complex negotiations. As people realise this, they will look for someone to blame. Those MPs who are ambivalent about May’s deal might well prefer that they and their party are not in the firing line. Giving the electorate the opportunity to confirm May’s deal (or not) is a wise choice.

The final attraction of the amendment is possibly the most compelling. Constitutional experts continue to assert that the UK is a parliamentary democracy based on the election of MPs as representatives rather than as delegates. But once you have allowed referendums, you cannot ignore their results. Parliament has to listen and to be seen to listen. The attraction is that, if the amendment is adopted, parliament runs the process, is seen to be doing its best to listen and sets out the parameters but then, at least on this occasion, gives the people the final say. Some, perhaps many, will complain. But they would undoubtedly complain far more about any of the other options.


100% disagree, so something that would be so bad that parliament rejects it twice is then put to the electorate, would just be a fiddle to reverse the result of the referendum.

I don't agree with a referendum but if there is one the only options should be different options of out.
 
400% disagree, so something that would be so bad that parliament rejects it twice is then put to the electorate, would just be a fiddle to reverse the result of the referendum.

I don't agree with a referendum but if there is one the only options should be different options of out.

what's wrong with an option to admit and reverse a mistake if people feel one has been made?
 
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