Politics, politics, politics (so long and thanks for all the fish)

[glasgowspur]

The problem is everyone is too scared to put the answer that would comfortably win a referendum on the ballot - Canada + so long NI and thanks for all the salt

Might, and I do say might, win a ballot here but would the EU agree.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

And would the ROI want them? Those I know there arent so keen...

 

[Baleforce]

What better way to break the deadlock than actually get a mandate from the people for a specific course of action?

Indeed

 

[r-u-s-x]

But that's just trying to split the leave vote and rig the referendum by giving them 2 options, the only people who want a referendum are remainers who never accepted the result of the first referendum. Why should no brexit be an option, it's been voted on before.

What happens say if remain wins but the turnout is lower than the first referendum for instance, does that conclude the argument? Do you make it best of 3?

the split vote thing is easily resolved if you have a transferable vote - in vs out and then options for what out you want, its far more representative which you want in a referendum.

If the turnout is lower its lower.

 

[Gutter Boy]

Might, and I do say might, win a ballot here but would the EU agree.

They already agreed to it. It was May that ditched it when she screwed up the election and had to pander to the DUP.

And medium term re the full reunification, empires are inherently expansionist aren't they

 

[glasgowspur]

They already agreed to it. It was May that ditched it when she screwed up the election and had to pander to the DUP.

And medium term re the full reunification, empires are inherently expansionist aren't they

Had they, I must have missed that. If That sounds sarcastic it's not meant to be.

As for NI that's for them and ROI to decide, nothing to do with me so I won't comment.

 

[r-u-s-x]

also, do you really need an option for no deal, surely nobody would vote for that?

no deal is WTO / hard brexit a significant amount would vote for it.

 

[r-u-s-x]

Even that is fraught though, if you look at my voting above - how the two hander was set up could easily manipulate a result.

brexit vs no brexit - if brexit wins then which one:
mays deal etc.

 

[Gutter Boy]

Had they, I must have missed that. If That sounds sarcastic it's not meant to be.

As for NI that's for them and ROI to decide, nothing to do with me so I won't comment.

The NI only backstop was all sweet much earlier in the process. Only when May lost here majority did she have to renege it and request a UK wide one.

 

[Gutter Boy]

brexit vs no brexit - if brexit wins then which one:
mays deal etc.

Brexit already won the first one. So what about now doing Canada + NI only customs union backstop vs Mays + UK customs union backstop?

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

Brexit already won the first one. So what about now doing Canada + NI only customs union backstop vs Mays + UK customs union backstop?

Not that simple though, only one deal has been agreed.

So it would be more like Hard Brexit/WTO, Mays deal, or beg for an extension and cross our fingers the EU will agree to an as yet unexplored option.

 

[r-u-s-x]

Brexit already won the first one. So what about now doing Canada + NI only customs union backstop vs Mays + UK customs union backstop?

No thanks, there is more information now for an informed vote

 

[Gutter Boy]

No thanks, there is more information now for an informed vote

Democracy doesn't work like that. There's more information every day after a general election, but you don't have a new general election every day. Governments get terms to implement their proposals

The British political culture has long been that referendums are once in a generation decisions. It's the EU's MO that you keep trying until you get the 'right' decision.

 

[r-u-s-x]

Democracy doesn't work like that. There's more information every day after a general election, but you don't have a new general election every day.

The British political culture has long been that referendums are once in a generation decisions. It's the EU's MO that you keep trying until you get the 'right' decision.

We are talking about another referendum on the same subject the only reason you wouldn't give he option of remain is you don't want to get the answer, nothing democratic about it.

Basically the only reason you leave it off the referendum is you are scared people will vote for it that doesn't sound like democracy to me.

 

[Baleforce]

measure twice, cut once

 

[Danishfurniturelover]

not the easy answers (lock them up etc) but long term cuts in social programs hold a lot of blame
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...res-services-unison-trade-union-a8663711.html

Well maybe I am mad but I would actually say we need to make more cuts.

When I was that age I had to work to put a roof over my head, then of course I wanted to make money to go to watch Tottenham and chase girls. Lets stop giving any benefits to anyone who carries a knife or their mothers, so the mums have to kick them onto the streets, then lets see if they want to be a gangster sleeping in a shop doorway or perhaps go and work at a Tesco express for a few years to make them understand the real world, when after a few years hard work they decide to go to evening school to get qualified as a plumber or whatever.

So cuts to jobseekers allowance and other benefits like child tax credits for the parents and put all that money into adult education and building new prisons. Carrot and stick, job sorted.

 

[Danishfurniturelover]

But that's just trying to split the leave vote and rig the referendum by giving them 2 options, the only people who want a referendum are remainers who never accepted the result of the first referendum. Why should no brexit be an option, it's been voted on before.

What happens say if remain wins but the turnout is lower than the first referendum for instance, does that conclude the argument? Do you make it best of 3?

We keep going till the EU and the liberal elite (who will benefit from custhy jobs in Brussels when this is all over) are happy with the answer.

 

[Danishfurniturelover]

what's wrong with an option to admit and reverse a mistake if people feel one has been made?

If it were so important to people then the Liberals would have walked the last election, though having a homophobic as a leader was a bit odd.

 

[r-u-s-x]

Well maybe I am mad but I would actually say we need to make more cuts.

When I was that age I had to work to put a roof over my head, then of course I wanted to make money to go to watch Tottenham and chase girls. Lets stop giving any benefits to anyone who carries a knife or their mothers, so the mums have to kick them onto the streets, then lets see if they want to be a gangster sleeping in a shop doorway or perhaps go and work at a Tesco express for a few years to make them understand the real world, when after a few years hard work they decide to go to evening school to get qualified as a plumber or whatever.

So cuts to jobseekers allowance and other benefits like child tax credits for the parents and put all that money into adult education and building new prisons. Carrot and stick, job sorted.

I say you're mad.

 

[the dza]

How close on the political spectrum are erg and the edl? Has the erg ever given any indication that they support anything tr or the edl do?

So what you are saying is that jrm and the erg are far right neo nazis who are prepared to incite murder and violence.
You can't sweepingly state that everyone to the right of you are violent right wing nutters.

I haven't said either of those things in any of my posts. 1. I don't think anyone to the right of me is a violent right-wing nutter. 2. I don't think the ERG are neo-nazis prepared to incite violence and murder, but they have overlapping views with those who do and they court the same political strategist, Steve Bannon, who has showed himself to be a friend of the far-right. I feel like I'm repeating myself, but that's the link between the groups and why I feel they swim in the same swamp. It's why, imo, the murder of the Labour MP occurred during the Brexit campaign, the far right are emboldened by the right of the Tory Party imo, and the sway that they have over the government and by extension, mainstream politics.

The reason I made this point initially is because it's the left who are accused of being extremists, violent, bullying etc. when the real political violence in the UK today is on the right.

I'm happy to leave it there because I feel like I am being quite repetitive, but I wanted to do you the courtesy of a reply as you wrote quite a long post in response (sorry if I have bored you to death in the process!)