with concrete information on what an achievable Brexit looks like.
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Politics, politics, politics (so long and thanks for all the fish)
- Thread starter SpurMeUp
- Start date
Because it will be something parliament has rejected twice (likely by large majorities) so if they don't think it's suitable by such a margin then why let the people have the option on it.
Baleforce
Arthur Rowe
True for May's deal, but surely it would be logical to offer the deal, no deal, or no Brexit?
But that's just trying to split the leave vote and rig the referendum by giving them 2 options, the only people who want a referendum are remainers who never accepted the result of the first referendum. Why should no brexit be an option, it's been voted on before.
What happens say if remain wins but the turnout is lower than the first referendum for instance, does that conclude the argument? Do you make it best of 3?
Baleforce
Arthur Rowe
do you think it's possible that some leave voters may have changed their mind?
SpurMeUp
Les Howe
Only problem is if you do that you're back to square 1 with people offering EU exit deals that are pie in the sky. You could offer hard brexit, customs union brexit, Mays brexit or remain. But even then there are massive amounts of detail to fill in re. a customs union or a hard exit. And it will run and run for years. Even May's deal is just a begining. It will take further years to sort out all the detail.
What is it you suggest? May's deal is crap. Soft Brexit is the same as being in but worse. Hard exit is disaster - I know you are clinging to a belief it will be alright. But let me tell you - it won't. It would knock the UK back decades. it would hit everyone in the pocket. It would devestate the NHS, schools etc as there wouldn't be the money to invest. What is it you suggest we do now??
The reason remain needs to be an option, is because this is a shi1 show. Brexit is not working or offering anything. If it is...please outline.
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I assume that's rhetorical but of course some have, some have passed away. I also know of some people who voted remain that would now vote out as well due to seeing how the EU operates or because they want to respect the result of the referendum. Either way the result would turn away huge swathes of people from politics and it would be the most vicious electoral campaign people will likely see in their lifetimes.
If people were so keen on a referendum they could have voted the lib dems in but they didn't.
I'm just not in favour of it, to me it would just be another establishment process.
SpurMeUp
Les Howe
What is it you are in favour of!?
Parklaner81
Steve Hodge
Entirely possible. I don't personally know any, though I do know a couple of remainers who've changed theirs. However, the referendum was conducted under the clear understanding that it was a one-off vote, so they just have to swallow it...
SpurMeUp
Les Howe
Entirely possible. I don't personally know any, though I do know a couple of remainers who've changed theirs. However, the referendum was conducted under the clear understanding that it was a one-off vote, so they just have to swallow it...
Swallow what exactly? What is it you are proposing we - everyone in the UK - swallow? Where is Danish when you need him? No what is it we are having to swallow? Do you know!?
If so please tell. If not, with respect, why don't you know? Why follow something with blind faith?Are we 'swallowing' May's brexit? A hard Brexit? Or something completely different?
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nayimfromthehalfwayline
Andy Thompson
Really depends on the ballot.
Mays deal/No deal - Id vote no deal.
Mays deal/Remain - Id probably vote remain.
Remain/No deal - 50/50 for me at the minute.
Though I think PD has a good point on splitting the leave vote, so its a really tricky situation.
@P.D. I understand in principle not wanting a second referendum, particularly if it reverses the first. Many of the arguments against it are completely valid. In principle I agree with this.
Problem is, as discussed at length - leave meant different things to different people, and Id be amazed if ANY were happy with the shape it has taken. Do you think if "Vassal EU Satellite" was on the original ballot anyone would have voted for it?
Given that vote was made without true knowledge of the outcome, I dont think its completely wrong to offer a validation/confirmation on it now.
Add to which Parliament is completely stuck - what should be done to get things moving again if not go to the people and ask what they want?
Baleforce
Arthur Rowe
I guess a two rounder would solve that, should we continue with Brexit on one of two specific options, if yes, which option
nayimfromthehalfwayline
Andy Thompson
Even that is fraught though, if you look at my voting above - how the two hander was set up could easily manipulate a result.
SpurMeUp
Les Howe
The splitting the Leave vote issue can be quite simply solved. Have a Leave box with 2 options below it: Mays deal and a no deal exit. It is not entirely clear what a no deal exit is. Even ERG bods don't all agree. But then you wouldn't split the Leave vote and you'd also give the country the chance to escape this utter waste of time and money that delivers us nothing in return.
You could make an argument the other way that in remaining you don't know what the future will be either, who knows what new laws or changes etc will be proposed in future years or what the EU will look like in the future. In the last few EU annual addresses they have talked of more EU and monetary and fiscal union etc and people are unlikely to be in favour of that. As with leave it's difficult to predict exactly what will happen in the future but the vote was made at a point in time, lies were told on both sides. Everyone got a leaflet through their post saying it's a one off decision and both main parties campaigned on a promise to respect the result of the referendum and therefore it's my belief it should be respected. If a load of politicians can't agree on the exit deal then unfortunately the default position has to be no deal - I'm not in favour of no deal and would hope there's some time provided to line up some mini agreements on citizens rights, visa travel and many other essentials.
@SpurMeUp - I don't particularly like the backstop but overall May's deal seems ok to me, it is a bit of a compromise deal which means it's not really pleasing all parties but the key themes of the referendum as I saw it were immigration, ability so have our own trade deals and be free from the majority of EU regulation/ECJ etc and this deal does seem to deliver on most aspects of that.
The bigger challenge that seems to be overlooked is that the actual future deal is the main negotiation and the WA leaves near enough all options open including Norway style etc if required. There's a lot of bickering here over what is essentially 1.5 PL seasons
What I'd ideally like to see if May's deal pass (with some changes to the backstop and workers rights and a legal commitment not to lower environmental and food standards) followed by a general election.
SpurMeUp
Les Howe
Err...no. Remaining means as you were. Everything else is just scare moungering. Project fear. If this happen. If that happened. Don't let people scare you. Look around at the EU with heavily nationalist movements in all EU nations. Proud French, Italians, Germans, Poles, Hungarians. It is project fear to make out these nations would compromise their national controls to suggest greater union; and don't foget the UK has a veto to any such ideas.
Remain means we have money for the NHS, we end austerity quicker, prices in the shops go down, holidays are cheaper, house prices go back up (maybe not a good thing), and the economy can repair the damage already done.
@SpurMeUp - I don't particularly like the backstop but overall May's deal seems ok to me, it is a bit of a compromise deal which means it's not really pleasing all parties but the key themes of the referendum as I saw it were immigration, ability so have our own trade deals and be free from the majority of EU regulation/ECJ etc and this deal does seem to deliver on most aspects of that.
The bigger challenge that seems to be overlooked is that the actual future deal is the main negotiation and the WA leaves near enough all options open including Norway style etc if required. There's a lot of bickering here over what is essentially 1.5 PL seasons
What I'd ideally like to see if May's deal pass (with some changes to the backstop and workers rights and a legal commitment not to lower environmental and food standards) followed by a general election.
As you point out, May's deal is just the begining. You have years of negotiations to effectively give the UK worse trading terms than we have now. That is not opinion, that is more or less undisputable. Now: UK has free access to 500m EU consumers and 70 odd other trade deals with the likes of Japan. Brexit: we get impaired trade access, maybe a little more agility to make UK focused trade deals, but that is not going to compensate for the losses.
What you'd like to see then is the benifits of the EU, without the immigration or EU laws - those lot telling us what to do. Ok:
1. Can you name an eu law that you really don't like? that phuks you off? You mention some you do like - food standards and workers rights. What are the ones you really don't like and how do they effect you?
2. Are you cool with immigrants from Asia instead of the EU, as that's what we're getting now?
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AuroRaman
Chris Armstrong
So basically the United States government.
And the way ours is rapidly heading.
Sitting on my porcelain throne using Fapatalk
nayimfromthehalfwayline
Andy Thompson
It would be fair to describe me as euro sceptic, Im not a fan of the EU at all.
However, despite what you point out - we do know what we are dealing with there, and people generally have comfort in the familiar.
The only basis on which I would vote remain is the idea of a "deal" leaving us basically in but without a voice, if that is what leave really means then it is simply pointless, shooting ones self in the foot.
And despite your saying default should be no deal (which I agree with) just look at the house. It is wiggling and squirming and doing its level best to prevent that. It would much rather we become permanent bitch to the EU than face that kind of exit. So despite what you might want, its just not the reality.
The reality is there are so many opposing forces in parliament that no single vision has backing, which means some GHod awful bastard scenario is most likely which will leave us significantly worse off.
What better way to break the deadlock than actually get a mandate from the people for a specific course of action?
Gutter Boy
Tim Sherwood
The problem is everyone is too scared to put the answer that would comfortably win a referendum on the ballot - Canada + so long NI and thanks for all the salt