***** OMT TOTTENHAM VS CHELSKI *****

[Bedfordspurs]

This is what I said: There is also an entire coaching staff who should be able to see this problem - and the Cheat$ki game wasn't the first instance of this - and have a plan. And take time at the luxurious surroundings of Hostpur Way to teach this. And then implement it.

And teams don't 'never lose' when they do this, but it can be viewed as a way of adjusting to game state to increase the chances of winning.

What should Ange have done?

 

[90291Spur]

What should Ange have done?

Perhaps he could have adjusted to the game state and the fact that our 'midfield' was being over-run by dropping Sarr a bit deeper to support Bissouma and not being all-out attack when we were ahead? Cheat$ki would obviously press for more goals and we might have been better equipped to absorb pressure and hit them on the break. I'm not talking Conte levels of low block, but a mid point between the high line and that.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Perhaps he could have adjusted to the game state and the fact that our 'midfield' was being over-run by dropping Sarr a bit deeper to support Bissouma and not being all-out attack when we were ahead? Cheat$ki would obviously press for more goals and we might have been better equipped to absorb pressure and hit them on the break. I'm not talking Conte levels of low block, but a mid point between the high line and that.

Maybe
But maybe that adjustment may have invited been more pressure

 

[Kompakted]

we are the joint 2nd highest scorers in the league. Yet we have now lost more games than we have won. 7 in 15 is disastrous.
We have Xmas coming with a LOT of games. Some big games as well.
I dont want ange Sacked. But I think its coming.

Our next 3 PL fixtures are:
- Southampton (A) - coming soon after what is sure to be an intense trip to Rangers - we will struggle to avoid a loss on current form
- Liverpool (H) - need i say more
- Forest (A) - another fairly inevitable loss this one.
All I would say is that Ange's teams have never failed to pull a rabbit out the hat somewhere i could imagine we lose painfully to Southampton and Forest but tear Liverpool a new a**hole.
Although I do feel like the wheels are loosening on this particular go-cart and I personally wouldn't be surprised at x3 losses and a sacking on boxing day night, with the club taking the view that they don't want to spend heavily in January on players to suit a manager that isn't going anywhere fast. At this point it feels a matter of when not if the chop comes.

 

[braineclipse]

I hope I'm not coming off too contrarion but any game could go differently. We can use any number of modal verbs to explain away the situation but reality is the best judge. And we're not the only club with injuries and fatigue (you haven't said that we are but some people seem to think we are), it's what happens when you play football.

They let us back in with the Son goal having fallen asleep thinking they'd coast to the win amd had copious amounts of potential 4 on 3 situations they could have profited from. It's not only top teams we give those away to, it's standard procedure.

Eh it's subjective, I'm not so sure it was good like Ange said, I'm leaning more towards quite bad than anything else. It says something when Paul fudging Merson can turn into prometheus at half time, the team must have been desperate to prove him right I guess.

I agree that just about every game can go differently. But I also think this one overall was fairly close.

No offence but I think sometimes we set the bar way too low on here. Did you see Carragher’s comments after the game? He said he can’t ever imagine playing for Liverpool and conceding 4 goals in a game and the manager coming out to do an interview and saying they played well as Ange did last night. Some of the defending and in-game management was farcical. Would it kill Ange to be more pragmatic in games? Not even asking for it all the time, just sometimes, for like 20-30 minutes. It’s like he’s playing the way Pep did at Barca and refusing to alter his style but with the talent of Alaves.

I think setting the bar fairly low during our current struggles with injuries and fatigue is fair. Particularly when up against a team that looks likely to finish 2nd or close to it.

I haven't heard Carragher and feel no desire to hear his opinion. I've listen to most of the gg pod, I'd rather get their opinion than his.

We do defend in a way that when it's not working we're very vulnerable. Key will be to make it work more or the time. That's what Ange says he's working towards, I think it's worth trying. I'd take his opinion over both Carragher and just about anyone else.

 

[SpurMeUp]

Your reading and comprehension leaves a lot to be desired bud. I haven't commented on the tactics regarding defensiveness one way or the other - he has his approach and will live or die on whether he gets the team playing his way or not (and in turn whether those tactics are good enough ultimately in this league)

I don't even want him sacked

No attack of your good self. You just happened to outline how Conte liked things. Two ironies: he didn’t like to play Bissouma. And I think we saw why yesterday afternoon. He’s a fuking liability! 1 game in 10 he’s outstanding and puts in a match winning performance. But the converse is also true. 1 game out of 10 he’s appalling. The loss of the ball out wide, then his head and then the pen was total implosion.

The second irony is fans wanted Conte gone (too early, he should have been replaced at the end of the season) and were clambering for more enjoyable attacking football. Now the appetite has changed and as you summed up: they want a bit more defensive now!

I think there is also a bit of a misunderstanding of Ange. That his approach is just cavilear and flawed. But such an analysis is really missing a lot imo. There is much much more to his vision and way of playing than say an Ozzy Ardiles. Ange system is pushing us to the limits: but that is the point. We commit everything to attack that we can. There isn’t much margin. It is right on the limit. Yet it works. In Postecoglous system working well we will outscore other sides include the top teams. We will play in a way others do not. And that will be our advantage. That it’s harder to achieve is a given. Otherwise everyone would be doing it.

 

[SpurMeUp]

Elsewhere Chelsea fans could say "Without Cucurella playing slip and slide we'd have won the game 4-1".

How is it helpful / even vaguely meaningful to edit out the parts of the game that went against you and keep everything else the same? An augmented reality that suits whatever the bias requires.

If Son had scored his one on one at 2-2 then blah blah blah. We'd have still found a way to lose it because Spurs, granted, but again it's all hypothetical..What isn't hypothetical is the table, and now the performances are matching where we are as well.

*I appreciate I have focused on one sentence of your post rather than holistically, I agree that Ange can't be blamed for two silly challenge in the box, although it's ingrained in the culture to be that stupid.

1. The slips came in the opening 15 mins
2. The two senseless pens at the end of the game
3. We pressed them and forced the issue. The pressure resulted in the slips
4. We had a lot to do after the slip ups. Not like either position was an open goal tap in.
5. Both Chelsea players were running AWAY from goal, you can’t even say the tackles stopped a shot.

 

[Jurgen the German]

I agree that just about every game can go differently. But I also think this one overall was fairly close.

I think setting the bar fairly low during our current struggles with injuries and fatigue is fair. Particularly when up against a team that looks likely to finish 2nd or close to it.

I haven't heard Carragher and feel no desire to hear his opinion. I've listen to most of the gg pod, I'd rather get their opinion than his.

We do defend in a way that when it's not working we're very vulnerable. Key will be to make it work more or the time. That's what Ange says he's working towards, I think it's worth trying. I'd take his opinion over both Carragher and just about anyone else.

Well then it must never work because we always looks vulnerable and we never look well-organised and solid, that can’t be an accident.

 

[spurspinter1]

1. The slips came in the opening 15 mins
2. The two senseless pens at the end of the game
3. We pressed them and forced the issue. The pressure resulted in the slips
4. We had a lot to do after the slip ups. Not like either position was an open goal tap in.
5. Both Chelsea players were running AWAY from goal, you can’t even say the tackles stopped a shot.

6. What happened, happened.
7. What didn't happen, did not happen.

That's what I personally think we should focus on, even if it's more painful. Arguably we should focus on the next game obviously but analysis is important and productive, but not "well if only this happened instead of that". Auntie uncle gonads bike goldfish etc.

 

[Mr Gogolak]

No attack of your good self. You just happened to outline how Conte liked things. Two ironies: he didn’t like to play Bissouma. And I think we saw why yesterday afternoon. He’s a fuking liability! 1 game in 10 he’s outstanding and puts in a match winning performance. But the converse is also true. 1 game out of 10 he’s appalling. The loss of the ball out wide, then his head and then the pen was total implosion.

The second irony is fans wanted Conte gone (too early, he should have been replaced at the end of the season) and were clambering for more enjoyable attacking football. Now the appetite has changed and as you summed up: they want a bit more defensive now!

I think there is also a bit of a misunderstanding of Ange. That his approach is just cavilear and flawed. But such an analysis is really missing a lot imo. There is much much more to his vision and way of playing than say an Ozzy Ardiles. Ange system is pushing us to the limits: but that is the point. We commit everything to attack that we can. There isn’t much margin. It is right on the limit. Yet it works. In Postecoglous system working well we will outscore other sides include the top teams. We will play in a way others do not. And that will be our advantage. That it’s harder to achieve is a given. Otherwise everyone would be doing it.

But does it, really? Espirito Santo beat City too but that doesn't mean his system work either. For now, it works against certain sides with certain characteristics, but it's too inconsistent to know for sure. Equally, it definitely doesn't work against other side - mediocre ones - with other characteristics.

What you're describing is certainly the plan but, so far, it only materialised in his first ten games and sporadically since then. I'll be the first to applaud him if he pulls it off but with the kind of squad we have and the business side of this club, I really can't see him pulling it off. Maybe in four or five years' time but I wouldn't bet anything on him still being around by then.

 

[thfcsteff]

I agree that just about every game can go differently. But I also think this one overall was fairly close.

I think setting the bar fairly low during our current struggles with injuries and fatigue is fair. Particularly when up against a team that looks likely to finish 2nd or close to it.

I haven't heard Carragher and feel no desire to hear his opinion. I've listen to most of the gg pod, I'd rather get their opinion than his.

We do defend in a way that when it's not working we're very vulnerable. Key will be to make it work more or the time. That's what Ange says he's working towards, I think it's worth trying. I'd take his opinion over both Carragher and just about anyone else.

Priorities aligned with obvious and clear intelligence, taste, and class...

 

[Kompakted]

Time to assemble and develop a squad that can deal with this number of injuries/players missing.

Time to see if our excellent best can become a more consistent thing. Which probably won't happen with this number of important players missing and other squad players also missing.

............Solanke/Richarlison/Lankshear
Son/Werner..............Johnson/Odobert/Moore
........................Kulu/Maddison

....Bissouma/Bentancur.....Sarr/Gray/Bergvall

Udogie/Davies/Reguilon............Porro/Spence
...................VDV/Dragusin/Romero

............................Vicario/Forster

I mean other than at CB which i think we could do with x1 more, it's a squad that's well covered on paper and that's also something Ange himself said after the summer.

Our injuries have been horrific, but they were last season too and have been at every club he's managed.

 

[SpurMeUp]

But does it, really? Espirito Santo beat City too but that doesn't mean his system work either. For now, it works against certain sides with certain characteristics, but it's too inconsistent to know for sure. Equally, it definitely doesn't work against other side - mediocre ones - with other characteristics.

You are looking for definitives where they aren’t any? What you can do is make an assessment using the evidence we have available.

Postecoglou has succeeded in every club.
If you listen to him you start to get an indication of his intelligence. Moreover you start to appreciate his dedication. He’s thinking and analysing right now probably. There is a fixation that the best have.

You can also look at the goal difference stats. Or the goals scored stats. And see we are not the basket case most lemming fans would have you believe. Or the XG for the last game which backed up what I saw in the pitch: that we had the beater chances outside of the pens.

Or you can make qualitative judgments. That we can pass and move the ball far better now than we could under any previous manager. That is not to say we don’t need improvements. We HAVE to improve. But there is method to his madness. Fans can’t see it as we’re under strength and underperforming in the league.

What you're describing is certainly the plan but, so far, it only materialised in his first ten games and sporadically since then. I'll be the first to applaud him if he pulls it off but with the kind of squad we have and the business side of this club, I really can't see him pulling it off. Maybe in four or five years' time but I wouldn't bet anything on him still being around by then.

Who would ‘pull it off’? Would Pep Guardiola? Maybe the most successful manager ever. Well Ange plays a similar brand of football and aspires to a similar setup. Guardiola wouldn’t drop in and instantly hit the heights either. He wouldn’t walk on water and be able to outmanoeuvre 7 injured players.

So what are you suggesting as an alternative? A manager who will slot us into the pack again with 5-7th place finishes? A safe hand? Do you remember how that ended with Conte and Mourinho before him?

 

[Mr Gogolak]

You are looking for definitives where they aren’t any? What you can do is make an assessment using the evidence we have available.

Postecoglou has succeeded in every club.
If you listen to him you start to get an indication of his intelligence. Moreover you start to appreciate his dedication. He’s thinking and analysing right now probably. There is a fixation that the best have.

You can also look at the goal difference stats. Or the goals scored stats. And see we are not the basket case most lemming fans would have you believe. Or the XG for the last game which backed up what I saw in the pitch: that we had the beater chances outside of the pens.

Or you can make qualitative judgments. That we can pass and move the ball far better now than we could under any previous manager. That is not to say we don’t need improvements. We HAVE to improve. But there is method to his madness. Fans can’t see it as we’re under strength and underperforming in the league.



Who would ‘pull it off’? Would Pep Guardiola? Maybe the most successful manager ever. Well Ange plays a similar brand of football and aspires to a similar setup. Guardiola wouldn’t drop in and instantly hit the heights either. He wouldn’t walk on water and be able to outmanoeuvre 7 injured players.

So what are you suggesting as an alternative? A manager who will slot us into the pack again with 5-7th place finishes? A safe hand? Do you remember how that ended with Conte and Mourinho before him?

I think this is where we differ: I don't like to judge a manager on their personality. Mourinho, for instance, is an extremely intelligent man. It doesn't make his brand of football any more attractive. Again, I'm not judging - you're obviously entitled to your opinion but, as far as I'm concerned, Postecoglou could be an absolute tosser, it wouldn't make any difference to me so I'm going to skip that part.

The stats are encouraging, I'll give you that. Unfortunately, while it's comforting to think we should be doing better, the bottom line is that, at the moment, we aren't. Stats don't tell the whole story either. xG for instance doesn't take into account the situation where a player misses the ball and doesn't shoot, even if he's two yards away from an open goal. There's the stats and then there's what you can see with your own two eyes and, quite frankly, I wasn't particularly impressed with our performances against Crystal Palace, Ipswich or Bournemouth. I wouldn't say we 'passed and moved the ball far better than we could under any previous manager'.

In my opinion (but that's just my view, not a fact), he needs to cut down the number of injuries if he's to come close to an acceptable league finish. If he won't change his high-intensity style of play, then he needs to find people who can whip the players into shape to sustain that level of intensity in the long run. Nobody can survive the loss of 8-9 first team players in this league. Nobody. For me, most of the injuries are on him and his staff and they need to sort that out. I think he needs fresh players to implement his ambitious system but again, I can't claim any special knowledge. It's just my view as a fan.

Also, I disagree that he's the only one who could succeed at this club, though. Hell, Harry Redknapp did and nobody would have bet a penny on him. There's never just one solution to a problem. I wish him to succeed because anything else would be stupid but I'm certainly not as confident as you are. As for his successes elsewhere, quite frankly, I'm not sure they're really relevant. Branko Ivanković has a 70% win ratio at Dinamo Zagreb and he won a lot of things in Iran but I'm not sure he'd be a success here.

 

[Mikey10]

I haven't heard Carragher and feel no desire to hear his opinion. I've listen to most of the gg pod, I'd rather get their opinion than his.

Hmmm…not sure on this occasion.

I felt those who dare to doubt Ange were - particularly in the pod’s opening section - painted a bit as unable to think for themselves, victims of the ‘bad’ podcasts/YouTube channels out there which “monetise anger”.

I’m sure it wasn’t the intention to patronise…but I’m actually capable of making a decision based on what I see with my own eyes, as I’m sure thousands of other Spurs fans are.

The “underlying data” might be great (even if we’re 11th, with a dreadful away record, having lost as many games as we’ve won since we last played Chelsea at home a year ago, and having conceded more than 130 shots in our last seven games), but the players look confused, run into the ground, and the manager looks downbeat and incapable of the level of change needed to turn things around.

I’m more than willing to accept the possibility that I’m wrong on it all - but it did come across as a bit of a lecture to those who aren’t wise enough to believe in the cult of Ange.

However, (usually) love the show!

 

[SpurMeUp]

I think this is where we differ: I don't like to judge a manager on their personality. Mourinho, for instance, is an extremely intelligent man. It doesn't make his brand of football any more attractive. Again, I'm not judging - you're obviously entitled to your opinion but, as far as I'm concerned, Postecoglou could be an absolute tosser, it wouldn't make any difference to me so I'm going to skip that part.

Idk if you’ve ever interviewed someone for a job. But all we are talking about is someone’s credentials. How good will they be as a Manager. Sure it’s a job in the public eye. But it’s still just a job. How do you go about rating an individual? How well are they equipped to deliver in the role?

The stats are encouraging, I'll give you that. Unfortunately, while it's comforting to think we should be doing better, the bottom line is that, at the moment, we aren't. Stats don't tell the whole story either. xG for instance doesn't take into account the situation where a player misses the ball and doesn't shoot, even if he's two yards away from an open goal. There's the stats and then there's what you can see with your own two eyes and, quite frankly, I wasn't particularly impressed with our performances against Crystal Palace, Ipswich or Bournemouth. I wouldn't say we 'passed and moved the ball far better than we could under any previous manager'.

Would you say which manager you think we played the ball better under?

In my opinion (but that's just my view, not a fact), he needs to cut down the number of injuries if he's to come close to an acceptable league finish. If he won't change his high-intensity style of play, then he needs to find people who can whip the players into shape to sustain that level of intensity in the long run. Nobody can survive the loss of 8-9 first team players in this league. Nobody. For me, most of the injuries are on him and his staff and they need to sort that out. I think he needs fresh players to implement his ambitious system but again, I can't claim any special knowledge. It's just my view as a fan.

I think in the future clubs will just have more players. Because the demands on sides are so high. And demand from fans and media for games is too. The stakes are so high that a high pressing energetic game will be the way to play.

Also, I disagree that he's the only one who could succeed at this club, though.

Of course Ange isn’t the only person. But we’re 18months in. You want to wait another 18 months to let a new manager start to bed in his team and ideas; then cut him short before they’ve realised their vision? Rinse and repeat.

Hell, Harry Redknapp did and nobody would have bet a penny on him. There's never just one solution to a problem. I wish him to succeed because anything else would be stupid but I'm certainly not as confident as you are. As for his successes elsewhere, quite frankly, I'm not sure they're really relevant.

Why not? He’s worked his way up on merit alone. Why wouldn’t you look at his career and cv?

Branko Ivanković has a 70% win ratio at Dinamo Zagreb and he won a lot of things in Iran but I'm not sure he'd be a success here.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Hmmm…not sure on this occasion.

I felt those who dare to doubt Ange were - particularly in the pod’s opening section - painted a bit as unable to think for themselves, victims of the ‘bad’ podcasts/YouTube channels out there which “monetise anger”.

I’m sure it wasn’t the intention to patronise…but I’m actually capable of making a decision based on what I see with my own eyes, as I’m sure thousands of other Spurs fans are.

The “underlying data” might be great (even if we’re 11th, with a dreadful away record, having lost as many games as we’ve won since we last played Chelsea at home a year ago, and having conceded more than 130 shots in our last seven games), but the players look confused, run into the ground, and the manager looks downbeat and incapable of the level of change needed to turn things around.

I’m more than willing to accept the possibility that I’m wrong on it all - but it did come across as a bit of a lecture to those who aren’t wise enough to believe in the cult of Ange.

However, (usually) love the show!

Do you listen to the spurs show? Grim
It’s old men moaning
The last word on spurs had people who don’t even go
I listen to the Extra Inch.., again guys who don’t go apart from Bardi who sits near me
Yet those ones are really popular
Madness for me

 

[Mikey10]

Do you listen to the spurs show? Grim
It’s old men moaning
The last word on spurs had people who don’t even go
I listen to the Extra Inch.., again guys who don’t go apart from Bardi who sits near me
Yet those ones are really popular
Madness for me

I love The Spurs Show. It has the kind of self-deprecating, deadpan humour which is the mainstay of most of the Spurs fans I know.

Could never get on with The Extra Inch. On the few occasions I listened there seemed to be a high percentage of b ollocks talked.

LWOS has its place, as long as you don’t take anything said on it too seriously; Russ Williams is good.

View From The Lane is consistently the best for me by quite some distance.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

I love The Spurs Show. It has the kind of self-deprecating, deadpan humour which is the mainstay of most of the Spurs fans I know.

Could never get on with The Extra Inch. On the few occasions I listened there seemed to be a high percentage of b ollocks talked.

LWOS has its place, as long as you don’t take anything said on it too seriously; Russ Williams is good.

View From The Lane is consistently the best for me by quite some distance.

VFTL is good
The Glory Glory one is good
I enjoy the extra inch although they are up their arses
The spurs show is toxic imo
It’s like a bunch of old men in a pub moaning their beer is bad whilst ordering another pint. I agree they are typical of a lot of spurs fans though
LWOS is like the new generation of coke in the toilets regurgitating buzz words geezer
I used it enjoy fighting rooster before they tried to get smart and tactical
The Tottenham way is funny because Marcus Buckland is clearly a negative moan fudgewit and the press guys correct him regularly

 

[SteveAWOL]

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