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***OMT TOTTENHAM HOTSPUR vs Liverpool***

Mikey10 said:
If it doesn’t work, and he won’t show any pragmatism, he’s then got to expect the worst.
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Well we’ve had 2 pragmatic managers very recently and it didn’t end well for them either. I admire Ange for sticking to his philosophy in an attempt to build. Yes it will take time if he’s allowed it. I don’t think for a second that we’ll get dragged into a relegation battle.
 
Baleforce said:
Good work with the analogy. I get what you are saying completely.

But I think you are wrong.

I think our defensive plan is fundamentally flawed and we will continue to give up gobs of chances irrespective of who we have on the pitch.
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yes and no - VDV is so quick that actually the ball that they used to such great effect in behind us today gets snuffed out a lot. If we can get another quick centre half (I honestly think we'll see Romero end up in Spain this summer coming) or two then the way we are set up means the quicks clear up behind their own back line.

Also there's some players back there that aren't defenders - I'm with those who think Spence should play at RB for a month - Porro looks tired and has a mistake in him doing basics, often facing his own goal at the moment. A fully fit Porro will be an asset, I feel he's burned out. Similarly as much as Dragusin is getting better, he's very raw and rash at points.

You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink . Sorry, was feeling left out with the metaphors flying around.
 
Surfless said:
yes and no - VDV is so quick that actually the ball that they used to such great effect in behind us today gets snuffed out a lot. If we can get another quick centre half (I honestly think we'll see Romero end up in Spain this summer coming) or two then the way we are set up means the quicks clear up behind their own back line.

Also there's some players back there that aren't defenders - I'm with those who think Spence should play at RB for a month - Porro looks tired and has a mistake in him doing basics, often facing his own goal at the moment. A fully fit Porro will be an asset, I feel he's burned out. Similarly as much as Dragusin is getting better, he's very raw and rash at points.

You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink . Sorry, was feeling left out with the metaphors flying around.
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VDV keeps getting injured because he has to make those recovery chases.

I bet he gets injured less if he can defend with the ball in front of him.
 
thfcsteff said:
Here was our available side today. It is the same as it was on Thursday, and virtually the same as it was last weekend too.

I keep hearing people like Jamie Carragher, and some here, going on about changing the style right now and being more 'pragmatic'...don't push the FBs high and sit in a mid to low block, attack on the counter.

Can anyone show me who we had available today that would've made that system work? Let alone in our squad?
Have people properly taken stock of the squad we're in the middle of building? With all it's 'future parts' and not much present tense immediacy? It's intent? How those players play? Pedro is not a great defender, so seeing him in a deeper sitting back four doesn't fill me with confidence. Anything inviting pressure onto these players right now is not a good fit for fatigue, let alone having to change the way we play after 18 months to try and snaffle a few points which such 'pragmatism' might still not help us achieve? WHERE are the reinforcements we can call upon to helpo us adjust to a more 'pragmatic' style of play? Does it really make sense -as the highest scorerrs in the league- to try and play a counter-attacking game when we're starting with Sonny and Deki?

Again, happy to have the discussion, but please note, this squad has been built for a style, and the manager has not been given reinforcements in key areas that he requested. BTW, Vicario would've save at least two of those goals today. We cannot go until even January 7th without getting a proper keeper in behind Vic...


​

Spurs​

  • 20
    Fraser Forster

  • 23
    Pedro Porro

  • 6
    Radu Dragusin
  • 14
    Archie Gray
  • 24
    Djed Spence
  • 29
    Pape Sarr
  • 8
    Yves Bissouma
  • 21
    Dejan Kulusevski
  • 10
    James Maddison
  • 7
    Heung-Min Son
  • 19
    Dominic Solanke

Substitutes​

  • 40
    Brandon Austin
  • 3
    Sergio Reguilon
  • 13
    Iyenoma Udogie
  • 15
    Lucas Bergvall (s 58')
  • 16
    Timo Werner (s 82')
  • 22
    Brennan Johnson (s 58')
  • 42
    Will Lankshear
  • 48
    Alfie Dorrington
  • 64
    Callum Olusesi
Click to expand...
If you don't have the players to make a system work, then you have to change the system, because needs must. If you can;t do that, then you are a brick manager and need to find a team more your level.

And there are plent of formations and approaches we could have made today with those players available.

So you can get snarky with people again?

Here's a 4-5-1 that you asked for earlier. And Porro playing RB is a new position for him, he played as a RWB in back 5 at Sporting Lisbon, and was very attacking minded. Hence why I think he would make a good RW. So when you said earlier out of position, what exactly are talking about?


Solanke

Werner - Maddison - Gray - Sarr - Porro

Reg - Dorrington - Dragusin - Djed.​


How about a 4-4-2

Solanke - Lankshear

Son - Maddison - Gray - Porro

Reg - Dorrington - Dragusin - Djed​
 
Mcfee said:
Well we’ve had 2 pragmatic managers very recently and it didn’t end well for them either. I admire Ange for sticking to his philosophy in an attempt to build. Yes it will take time if he’s allowed it. I don’t think for a second that we’ll get dragged into a relegation battle.
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And players
Time and players
He had to shift out a LOT who can’t play his way and now needs even more who can
 
Surfless said:
yes and no - VDV is so quick that actually the ball that they used to such great effect in behind us today gets snuffed out a lot. If we can get another quick centre half (I honestly think we'll see Romero end up in Spain this summer coming) or two then the way we are set up means the quicks clear up behind their own back line.

Also there's some players back there that aren't defenders - I'm with those who think Spence should play at RB for a month - Porro looks tired and has a mistake in him doing basics, often facing his own goal at the moment. A fully fit Porro will be an asset, I feel he's burned out. Similarly as much as Dragusin is getting better, he's very raw and rash at points.

You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink . Sorry, was feeling left out with the metaphors flying around.
Click to expand...
We need. Ba who can pass and head
We don’t need the pace as much as people think imo
The way we play out is key for ball retention
And aerial ability are beaten on game after game
 
Surfless said:
yes and no - VDV is so quick that actually the ball that they used to such great effect in behind us today gets snuffed out a lot. If we can get another quick centre half (I honestly think we'll see Romero end up in Spain this summer coming) or two then the way we are set up means the quicks clear up behind their own back line.

Also there's some players back there that aren't defenders - I'm with those who think Spence should play at RB for a month - Porro looks tired and has a mistake in him doing basics, often facing his own goal at the moment. A fully fit Porro will be an asset, I feel he's burned out. Similarly as much as Dragusin is getting better, he's very raw and rash at points.

You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink . Sorry, was feeling left out with the metaphors flying around.
Click to expand...
Porro was never a RB at Sporting Lisbon. He was a RWB, in a back 5 and was attacking minded, IIRC.

In one of the first interviews with players after Ange's arrival, Porro was saying it was hard work and difficult to play his new position of RB (also think it was Ange's style RB too), but he enjoyed the challenge. I don't know how so many people have forgotten this or didn't know about this.

I honestly believe is better off doing Bale, moving forward to the RW and dropping Johnson. Porro creates, scores, but does an awful lot more than Johnson... He will get stuck in and defend. And having both Djed and Porro being able to defend and attack on the right, it will cause chaos for the opposition, and if Djed is up top and loses the ball, Porro will just slip back into his RB role and know what is expected.
 
I haven't yet read the comments on here but I imagine there will be a fair few questioning the tactics again. Whilst there's obviously a clear logic to those who call for more pragmatism, my sense is that if we had set up to be less aggressive and more defensive against this Pool side, with our current personnel, we likely lose 2 nil (or similar) anyway.

The other thing that occurred to me watching the game is that Pool's tactics weren't actually too disimilar to ours (albeit a more evolved, supercharged iteration) . Fairly high line with an aggressive press up top, quick short passes in the centre and full backs that spend a good part of the game occupying the midfield areas (though one distinct difference was the quality of their longer passes and crossfielld balls).

In that regard, they are probably a good example of Ange's aspirations for the final Spurs' template. Whether he will get the chance to see that through remains to be seen of course but I hope he does.
 
ShelfLife said:
I haven't yet read the comments on here but I imagine there will be a fair few questioning the tactics again. Whilst there's obviously a clear logic to those who call for more pragmatism, my sense is that if we had set up to be less aggressive and more defensive against this Pool side, with our current personnel, we likely lose 2 nil (or similar) anyway.

The other thing that occurred to me watching the game is that Pool's tactics weren't actually too disimilar to ours (albeit a more evolved, supercharged iteration) . Fairly high line with an aggressive press up top, quick short passes in the centre and full backs that spend a good part of the game occupying the midfield areas (though one distinct difference was the quality of their longer passes and crossfielld balls).

In that regard, they are probably a good example of Ange's aspirations for the final Spurs' template. Whether he will get the chance to see that through remains to be seen of course but I hope he does.
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Frustrating that I have to had edit the above to use 'Pool' in place of 'L1verpool' as the latter auto 'corrects' to 'victims'. All rather pathetic.
 
Robspur12 said:
In this system both full backs bomb forward which inevitably leaves us short at the back because the midfielders don't cover across like they did in Poch's system, for example.

Sky did a good analysis on the circumstances leading to their third goal just before half time. We had just got back to 2-1 why not keep it tight, go in only a goal down. Instead Spence, a LB surges forward leaving a big gap behind. Dragu then panics trying to cover across and mis times his jump for the header. victims in and score.

That passage of play had nothing to do with injuries or tiredness. It was poor game management pure and simple. And it is suicidal playing like that against victims. I like Ange but shrugging your shoulders and saying "that's the way it is mate" is irritating.
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Thought sky analysis on that goal was poor tbh.
It's not spence chasing the ball down that's the problem, that actually works because taa has to concede controlled possession, it's dragu the "experienced" cb missing the header that's the problem. He drops back, we tidy that up and are back on the attack.





Jurgen the German said:
They were not in the right positions at 2-1 down just before they scored, they were at the other end of the pitch. We’ve just scored and it’s nearly HT, you’re vulnerable, just be fudging sensible. Again, that’s nothing to do with injuries, that’s how ANGE sets up the team.
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They're also vulnerable, a game they've dominated but suddenly only one goal to the good and a bit shaky, pressing them was the correct thing to do, we just fudged it up.




SkipRat said:
If you don't have the players to make a system work, then you have to change the system, because needs must. If you can;t do that, then you are a brick manager and need to find a team more your level.

And there are plent of formations and approaches we could have made today with those players available.

So you can get snarky with people again?

Here's a 4-5-1 that you asked for earlier. And Porro playing RB is a new position for him, he played as a RWB in back 5 at Sporting Lisbon, and was very attacking minded. Hence why I think he would make a good RW. So when you said earlier out of position, what exactly are talking about?


Solanke

Werner - Maddison - Gray - Sarr - Porro

Reg - Dorrington - Dragusin - Djed.​


How about a 4-4-2

Solanke - Lankshear

Son - Maddison - Gray - Porro

Reg - Dorrington - Dragusin - Djed​
Click to expand...
Really, two teams with maddison, who has been weaker than boarding house tea, and two youth players and no kulu.
Don't give up the day job.
 
glasgowspur said:
Thought sky analysis on that goal was poor tbh.
It's not spence chasing the ball down that's the problem, that actually works because taa has to concede controlled possession, it's dragu the "experienced" cb missing the header that's the problem. He drops back, we tidy that up and are back on the attack.






They're also vulnerable, a game they've dominated but suddenly only one goal to the good and a bit shaky, pressing them was the correct thing to do, we just fudged it up.





Really, two teams with maddison, who has been weaker than boarding house tea, and two youth players and no kulu.
Don't give up the day job.
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Replace him Bergvall... I honestly don't care, personally if he doesn;t improve by the end of the Season, I would sell him.

The point is, that there was plenty of options and formations for us to use with the players we had available regarding stef's post... Rather than sticking with a formation that we don't have the players for.

So yeah, I agree with you with Maddison, but that wasn't what my post was about
 
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