** OMT - Tottenham Hotspur v Liverpool ** 8.1.25 at 8pm

[braineclipse]

At the risk of being dinged again, here I go my friend...I said at the time Vic was hurt that we could not deal with Forster as our keeper, that it would cause huge problems, and that it showed a squad errorfrom the summer. Credit to all concerned for getting Kinsky in, because he was clearly, clearly a huge difference maker. It's about so much more than shot-stopping. His range of passes, his confidence with his feet, his accuracy, his willingness to play higher, his comfort in the box, it all makes a huge difference.

Along with not being as fatigued the biggest difference between this game and the previous game against them imo.

They pressed, but we often got out. They pressed, but he also has that direct ping pass in his locker. A safe and useful option when our defenders were under pressure. Big difference.

 

[Mikey10]

They pressed, but we often got out. They pressed, but he also has that direct ping pass in his locker. A safe and useful option when our defenders were under pressure. Big difference.

That was so important, as was the frequency with which he employed it. It meant Liverpool had it to think about and that, in turn, helped to change how they played.

 

[Muttley]

The International Football Association Board's Laws of the Games state:
"If the referee plays the advantage for an offence for which a caution/sending-off would have been issued had play been stopped, this caution/sending-off must be issued when the ball is next out of play.
However, if the offence was denying the opposing team an obvious goalscoring opportunity, the player is cautioned for unsporting behaviour; if the offence was interfering with or stopping a promising attack, the player is not cautioned."

So if Bergvall's offence was viewed as merely interfering with the attack and nothing more severe/reckless/violent...no problem

Thanks for finding the time to dig out this detail. Another awful piece of writing by IFAB. The first and the second parts almost contradict each other.

However, no doubt in my mind the player would have been booked if play had stopped, and should have been booked when the ball next went out of play. It wasn't unsporting behaviour in my mind. It was a reckless tackle that played the man, not the ball.

The ref could pretend it wasn't reckless and it wasn't a goalscoring opportunity, but in reality that is just what we get from PGMOL. It was very reckless. We need these referees held to account for not following the laws.

 

[braineclipse]

That was so important, as was the frequency with which he employed it. It meant Liverpool had it to think about and that, in turn, helped to change how they played.

Ederson-esque. And IIRC Pep talked about that specific quality as one of the reasons they signed Ederson and the impact it has.

 

[Kandi1977]

Thanks for finding the time to dig out this detail. Another awful piece of writing by IFAB. The first and the second parts almost contradict each other.

However, no doubt in my mind the player would have been booked if play had stopped, and should have been booked when the ball next went out of play. It wasn't unsporting behaviour in my mind. It was a reckless tackle that played the man, not the ball.

The ref could pretend it wasn't reckless and it wasn't a goalscoring opportunity, but in reality that is just what we get from PGMOL. It was very reckless. We need these referees held to account for not following the laws.

It wasn't reckless. He clearly goes for the ball, and it's not in any way dangerous. And it certainly isn't a goal scoring opportunity! It was in the middle of their half!

 

[Muttley]

It wasn't reckless. He clearly goes for the ball, and it's not in any way dangerous. And it certainly isn't a goal scoring opportunity! It was in the middle of their half!

Nah, he wasn't in control and got the man, not the ball. Whether it was a tired tackle or the impetuousness of youth, it was a booking.

 

[Junior19]

My friend, I too respect you immensely, but with that respect quite correctly shared, I fail to see how it can be construed as patronising.
It is my opinion mate. If that projects to you as such, I sadly can do little about that other than to state that is not my intention.

I think some people have refused to see the tweaks and alterations which have been made as this mad injury crisis has rolled through our squad, and further, I believe some people have confused a lot of what the manager is saying with what is actually going on. I'm happy to get into it more discussion-wise, but the short take is that I believe you can play football with the style and approach he has given us whilst also making adjustments along the way. There has been a pervasive narrative that his style is somewhat wreckless, which has led to everything from the losses to injuries. I maintain that plenty of the goals conceded have come down as much to individual errors as anything else. Again, one can happily discuss and debate whether the errors are a result of the system or players not being quite up to it for whatever reason (health, focus, ability).

I have mentioned the FBs not pushing on in several other games this season, and the midfield was certainly man-marking. Yet we did not alter our approch to the game, which was to look to win it.

I think there are many games from earlier this season where we had to watch first-halves which were bordering on tedious due to the lack of speed in build-up play due to trying to control the game and be patient as opposed to charging around and giving mid-low block teams easy street.

On a side note here:
I think the sensationalism of the so-called "expert commentators" is breeding this. Instead of using their (if it exists) knowledge to inform and educate, they play into soundbites and easy jibes that they _know_ will rile up one set of fans, while create jeers and cheers from the other side.

I'm fairly old-fashioned, I've seen a fair bit of football, and I like to think that I know a little bit about it. I'm not a know-it-all, or a tactical genious, by any stretch of imagination, but I know what my strenghts are and where I need help.
But I don't need commentators on the telly to tell me the same brick my "mates" who support other teams can tell me, or what I can see with my own two eyes. The commentators and experts are there (in my view) to give me _more_ insight and knowledge, not just rattle off some prescripted nonsense on predetermined cues.

The blatant chase for clicks and debate-flaming content during commentary, and even worse, during the half-time and full-time talks is the true patronising here.

 

[DubSpur]

Nah, he wasn't in control and got the man, not the ball. Whether it was a tired tackle or the impetuousness of youth, it was a booking.

He made an effort to play the ball and just missed it. His foot was on the ground. To be out of control or reckless there would've needed to be more force or the foot higher. We've been on the receiving end of them before with no booking. This time it was to our advantage. I don't agree with it but it's the rule.

 

[glasgowspur]

Nah, he wasn't in control and got the man, not the ball. Whether it was a tired tackle or the impetuousness of youth, it was a booking.

It was a booking, but I've seen loads this season that should have been bookings but the advantage has been played and that's the end of it.
It's a stupid rule IMHO, but if it's being applied consistently then I think that's all we can ask for.

 

[braineclipse]

It was a booking, but I've seen loads this season that should have been bookings but the advantage has been played and that's the end of it.
It's a stupid rule IMHO, but if it's being applied consistently then I think that's all we can ask for.

We'd be (imo rightly) fuming if it was the other way around. Stupid rule. Poor decision to let the attack go rather than give a red.

But players get away with stuff all the time, including second yellows. It happens. We got away with one this time.

 

[glasgowspur]

We'd be (imo rightly) fuming if it was the other way around. Stupid rule. Poor decision to let the attack go rather than give a red.

But players get away with stuff all the time, including second yellows. It happens. We got away with one this time.

It's happened to us several times this season, that's why ange pounced on it in the interview.
It's a stupid rule, football is littered with them at the moment.

 

[braineclipse]

My friend, I too respect you immensely, but with that respect quite correctly shared, I fail to see how it can be construed as patronising.
It is my opinion mate. If that projects to you as such, I sadly can do little about that other than to state that is not my intention.

I think some people have refused to see the tweaks and alterations which have been made as this mad injury crisis has rolled through our squad, and further, I believe some people have confused a lot of what the manager is saying with what is actually going on. I'm happy to get into it more discussion-wise, but the short take is that I believe you can play football with the style and approach he has given us whilst also making adjustments along the way. There has been a pervasive narrative that his style is somewhat wreckless, which has led to everything from the losses to injuries. I maintain that plenty of the goals conceded have come down as much to individual errors as anything else. Again, one can happily discuss and debate whether the errors are a result of the system or players not being quite up to it for whatever reason (health, focus, ability).

I have mentioned the FBs not pushing on in several other games this season, and the midfield was certainly man-marking. Yet we did not alter our approch to the game, which was to look to win it.

I think there are many games from earlier this season where we had to watch first-halves which were bordering on tedious due to the lack of speed in build-up play due to trying to control the game and be patient as opposed to charging around and giving mid-low block teams easy street.

I think there has been a narrative that he doesn't change things when he does. Going back to last season.

I think there's now a narrative that he's now started to change things and should have done so earlier, when imo most of the changes are things we've seen him do before. It's just working now because we're less fatigued, have some excellent young players stepping up with a bit of time on their hand, added a keeper who can play really well with his feet and aren't making as many individual errors.

Said before the Saudi Sportswashing Machine game I was more optimistic after a week off. Despite illness striking we played well. And again against Liverpool. I think people underestimate the impact of fatigue on the squad and overestimate how much can be done tactically to compensate for that leading to some of these narratives.

Said it before, but last season Saudi Sportswashing Machine, this season us and City. Give Slot 8-10 injuries at the same time over a couple of months with fixture congestion and see what the narrative ends up being about his tactical approach.

I think there is a valid concern about his methods and playing style leading to more injuries. That may be a thing, but I also think it's too soon to say. It may be a temporary thing as players adjust as Ange has hinted at, in that case maybe it's worth it. Perhaps different work from physios or others is needed. But certainly luck is a factor here in our current situation.

 

[Chrissivad]

What's the rules on buying players now and playing in the 2nd leg?

I knew there is a rule that you can only play players who were available in the first game. I just don't know if that's for replays rather than 2 lagged games.

 

[Muttley]

On a side note here:
I think the sensationalism of the so-called "expert commentators" is breeding this. Instead of using their (if it exists) knowledge to inform and educate, they play into soundbites and easy jibes that they _know_ will rile up one set of fans, while create jeers and cheers from the other side.

I'm fairly old-fashioned, I've seen a fair bit of football, and I like to think that I know a little bit about it. I'm not a know-it-all, or a tactical genious, by any stretch of imagination, but I know what my strenghts are and where I need help.
But I don't need commentators on the telly to tell me the same brick my "mates" who support other teams can tell me, or what I can see with my own two eyes. The commentators and experts are there (in my view) to give me _more_ insight and knowledge, not just rattle off some prescripted nonsense on predetermined cues.

The blatant chase for clicks and debate-flaming content during commentary, and even worse, during the half-time and full-time talks is the true patronising here.

Great post.

I think every commentator and pundit should have to pass an exam on the laws of the game. If they then give an opinion that those laws are at odds with the match situation, that would be good punditry. If they are unable to see that the laws weren't applied and come up with other narratives, that's not right. Just like Smith was talking to the nation about Kulu potentially giving away a penalty. He didn't even mention that VVD fouled our player half a second before it, and you could therefore never give it.

 

[FatBloke]

False starts are different though, not starting with a foot half a centimeter in front of someone else. How do they measure that? I've never seen it, but I'm not big on sprints.

I don't see how 100m starts are at all the same thing. In sprinting, there's a clear line and a clear start time - if you allow too much leeway, that's a problem with your start position or reaction time.

With football offsides, there's just too much uncertainty to apply a hairline system. The one thing that I think is really needed is error bars (or thicker lines) to reflect the inaccuracy in knowing exactly when foot kicked ball and the time gap between frames. If the lines overlap, it's benefit of the doubt.

 

[K.D.D.D.D.Soc]

What's the rules on buying players now and playing in the 2nd leg?

I knew there is a rule that you can only play players who were available in the first game. I just don't know if that's for replays rather than 2 lagged games.

Whatever it is we will be on the wrong end of it.

 

[Daisuk]

I don't see how 100m starts are at all the same thing. In sprinting, there's a clear line and a clear start time - if you allow too much leeway, that's a problem with your start position or reaction time.

With football offsides, there's just too much uncertainty to apply a hairline system. The one thing that I think is really needed is error bars (or thicker lines) to reflect the inaccuracy in knowing exactly when foot kicked ball and the time gap between frames. If the lines overlap, it's benefit of the doubt.

Not the same thing at all, I just grasped at the first thing that came to mind. Agreed with your second point, would make the system better.

 

[Mikey10]

I think there has been a narrative that he doesn't change things when he does. Going back to last season.

I think there's now a narrative that he's now started to change things and should have done so earlier, when imo most of the changes are things we've seen him do before. It's just working now because we're less fatigued, have some excellent young players stepping up with a bit of time on their hand, added a keeper who can play really well with his feet and aren't making as many individual errors.

Said before the Saudi Sportswashing Machine game I was more optimistic after a week off. Despite illness striking we played well. And again against Liverpool. I think people underestimate the impact of fatigue on the squad and overestimate how much can be done tactically to compensate for that leading to some of these narratives.

Said it before, but last season Saudi Sportswashing Machine, this season us and City. Give Slot 8-10 injuries at the same time over a couple of months with fixture congestion and see what the narrative ends up being about his tactical approach.

I think there is a valid concern about his methods and playing style leading to more injuries. That may be a thing, but I also think it's too soon to say. It may be a temporary thing as players adjust as Ange has hinted at, in that case maybe it's worth it. Perhaps different work from physios or others is needed. But certainly luck is a factor here in our current situation.

I think he said himself in the post-match last night that we had set out to be more conservative in midfield; that was a definite welcome change and that, coupled with other adaptations (a couple of which were also visible in the N ewcastle game) meant there was much less charging back towards our own goal.

He definitely deserves credit for how he set up last night compared to the league game against them last month. My hope is that we move forward playing this way much more consistently, even when the injured players are back. Doesn’t mean there can’t be times when we go much more gung-ho in attack; but only when the circumstances of a specific point in a specific game mean it is the most sensible approach.

 

[Mikey10]

Great post.

I think every commentator and pundit should have to pass an exam on the laws of the game. If they then give an opinion that those laws are at odds with the match situation, that would be good punditry. If they are unable to see that the laws weren't applied and come up with other narratives, that's not right. Just like Smith was talking to the nation about Kulu potentially giving away a penalty. He didn't even mention that VVD fouled our player half a second before it, and you could therefore never give it.

I very deliberately sit down to watch a game at home 5 minutes before kick off now, go and make a cup of tea (and have a quick look on here!) at half time, and then turn off pretty much immediately at the end of a game. Haven’t bothered with the talking heads in the studio for a couple of years now. It’s tedious.

 

[Legohamster]

Just watched it now as working during the game
Great performance
Bergvall is some player
Ange showed he can tweak, where was this weeks ago? Perfectly set up
Completely vindicated in going with the new keeper, Vicario will have a fight getting his spot back if he carries on like that
Liverpools moaning can get in the bin

Gray/Berg midfield when everyone is fit please