Mousa Dembele

[Millsy_Yiddo]

Not all managers want fast transitions of play. Dembele's old style of play was perfect for AVB's style of possession football and him and Sandro were a well balanced partnership for that.

It's not about fast transitional play though. It's about making the right decisions at the right time. The situation I described wasn't anything to do with transition, I'm talking about when we are in possession of the ball and there is an opportunity to put someone through on goal. Old Dembele delays the decision, takes an extra touch, beats his man for the third time and ultimately fails to create an opportunity for a team mate. New Dembele plays the ball and creates an opportunity for a team mate. New Dembele is the much better player no matter what system the manager plays because ultimately he makes better decisions more quickly.

 

[Pirate55]

Come back soon Moose.

 

[parklane1]

It's not about fast transitional play though. It's about making the right decisions at the right time. The situation I described wasn't anything to do with transition, I'm talking about when we are in possession of the ball and there is an opportunity to put someone through on goal. Old Dembele delays the decision, takes an extra touch, beats his man for the third time and ultimately fails to create an opportunity for a team mate. New Dembele plays the ball and creates an opportunity for a team mate. New Dembele is the much better player no matter what system the manager plays because ultimately he makes better decisions more quickly.

Bingo.

 

[braineclipse]

It's not about fast transitional play though. It's about making the right decisions at the right time. The situation I described wasn't anything to do with transition, I'm talking about when we are in possession of the ball and there is an opportunity to put someone through on goal. Old Dembele delays the decision, takes an extra touch, beats his man for the third time and ultimately fails to create an opportunity for a team mate. New Dembele plays the ball and creates an opportunity for a team mate. New Dembele is the much better player no matter what system the manager plays because ultimately he makes better decisions more quickly.

This is a very specific situation, one of many situations where Dembele in the past hasn't been good enough at playing the quick tempo passing game. Fast transitional play is another one. Buildup play against organized teams is another. And so on.

He's improved this season, but personally I still rate some of our young academy grown players well ahead of him in that quick tempo passing area of the game. Though Dembele is obviously better than them at other things.

 

[Raziel]

This is a very specific situation, one of many situations where Dembele in the past hasn't been good enough at playing the quick tempo passing game. Fast transitional play is another one. Buildup play against organized teams is another. And so on.

He's improved this season, but personally I still rate some of our young academy grown players well ahead of him in that quick tempo passing area of the game. Though Dembele is obviously better than them at other things.

Re tempo, not his natural strength, but Dembele, Eriksen & Lamela all have the potential to be WC players, the talent is there, consistency and decisions have not always been.

The only young player I see with line of sight right now to be in that group is Alli.

 

[braineclipse]

Re tempo, not his natural strength, but Dembele, Eriksen & Lamela all have the potential to be WC players, the talent is there, consistency and decisions have not always been.

The only young player I see with line of sight right now to be in that group is Alli.

I agree that it's not his natural strength, but it's a weakness that's held him back way too much imo.

Depending a bit on how one defines a world class player, but arguably it's beginning to be very late for Dembele to make that step up. 29 in the summer, not many players I can think of that's made that step up as late as that. At the very least you'd probably have to include Vertonghen (essentially same age) and Alderweireld (27 in the spring) to the group of players with the potential to be WC. More common for centre backs to develop later too. Actually Alderweireld as a potential world class player in the future is an interesting thought...

Agree with the rest, assuming that you already count Lloris and Kane as world class And quite a few more that I feel have the potential to make the step up alongside Alli, but their line of sight isn't quite as clear as Alli's.

 

[Finney Is Back]

It's not about fast transitional play though. It's about making the right decisions at the right time. The situation I described wasn't anything to do with transition, I'm talking about when we are in possession of the ball and there is an opportunity to put someone through on goal. Old Dembele delays the decision, takes an extra touch, beats his man for the third time and ultimately fails to create an opportunity for a team mate. New Dembele plays the ball and creates an opportunity for a team mate. New Dembele is the much better player no matter what system the manager plays because ultimately he makes better decisions more quickly.

Don't you think though that It would be strange for Dembele to suddenly start seeing these opportunities at the age of 26 (or whatever he is) Isn't it more likely that he is simply playing to the manager's instructions?

 

[billyiddo]

Don't you think though that It would be strange for Dembele to suddenly start seeing these opportunities at the age of 26 (or whatever he is) Isn't it more likely that he is simply playing to the manager's instructions?

I think he always saw them, he just preferred the do it all yourself approach - it's more of a case of having that coached out of him than having the eye for a pass coached in to him

 

[Finney Is Back]

I think he always saw them, he just preferred the do it all yourself approach - it's more of a case of having that coached out of him than having the eye for a pass coached in to him

But again.... If this were the case then surely AVB would've coached that out of him? It instead seemed to me that Dembele was playing the way that his manager wanted, his style of play back then perfectly suited AVB's overly cautious keep the ball at costs tactics, whereas Pochettino doesn't mind us losing the ball trying to create something, especially as it also creates an opportunity for us to win the ball back high up the pitch.

 

[billyiddo]

But again.... If this were the case then surely AVB would've coached that out of him? It instead seemed to me that AVB liked Dembele. I think his style of play back then perfectly suited AVB's overly cautious keep the ball at costs tactics, whereas Pochettino doesn't mind us losing the ball trying to create something, especially as it also creates an opportunity for us to win the ball back high up the pitch.

I think you've answered your own question there, no? AVB liked the way he played so there was no need to change anything - plus there's always the question over AVB being capable of doing that on the training field...

 

[Rorschach]

If you look at vids of Dembele during his Alkmar days he's more like the Dembele we see now. He was a progressive player that had no problem pulling the trigger when it was the right time. I'm also firmly of the opinion that coaching over the years has altered his playing style to be more cautious. As was mentioned it certainly suited the AVB's possession at all costs approach and if I was to guess I would say he is the main culprit. So for me he's only rediscovering rather than reinvention himself.

 

[billyiddo]

The problem with highlight clips is they don't show you 99% of what the player does during a match - from his time as a CM at Fulham he seemed much the same as under AVB, Sherwood and last season under Poch - it's also worth remember his days in Holland were before he was moved to a CM - whatever the reasons it can't be argued he's not now releasing the ball quicker than he was before and the doubts people had that he could play this way should be alleviated

 

[Rorschach]

The problem with highlight clips is they don't show you 99% of what the player does during a match - from his time as a CM at Fulham he seemed much the same as under AVB, Sherwood and last season under Poch - it's also worth remember his days in Holland were before he was moved to a CM - whatever the reasons it can't be argued he's not now releasing the ball quicker than he was before and the doubts people had that he could play this way should be alleviated

Well this is true but I think there is no mistaking his propensity to have a shot or through ball has diminished, and yes this probably coincided with his move further back the pitch. I don't need to draw a line between those two facts but I honestly think there is more to it than that. I do think the 'risk' was coached out of him to a point where didn't take any.

Actually in saying all that my own opinion is that that his improvement this season over previous ones is actually more marginal than comments on here would have you believe. I'm in the camp the was always worth his place in the team and he is playing pretty much as he always did with just few more risks thrown in. Also he seems a little more physical than before but that could be my mind playing tricks on me. Anyway whatever the reason I'm glad he was not one of the players culled.

 

[Robspur12]

Well this is true but I think there is no mistaking his propensity to have a shot or through ball has diminished, and yes this probably coincided with his move further back the pitch. I don't need to draw a line between those two facts but I honestly think there is more to it than that. I do think the 'risk' was coached out him to a point where didn't take any.

Actually in saying all that my own opinion is that that his improvement this season over previous ones is actually more marginal than comments on here would have you believe. I'm in the camp the was always worth his place in the team and he is playing pretty much as he always did with just few more risks thrown in. Also he seems a little more physical than before but that could be my mind playing tricks on me. Anyway whatever the reason I'm glad he was not one of the players culled.

Spot on mate. As I have said earlier in this thread, I think Poch knew his value far more than many posters on here, as evidenced by the number of central midfielders he has out lasted.

 

[Robspur12]

I think you've answered your own question there, no? AVB liked the way he played so there was no need to change anything - plus there's always the question over AVB being capable of doing that on the training field...

I agree with Finney that what you have seen in his time at Spurs is a player who follows the instructions given by the manager. This is probably why he has survived an extraordinary turnover of central midfielders under AVB and Poch, 2 very different managers. Btw I don't think how he was coached by AVB was necessarily a bad thing after all he was still outstanding in his first season alongside Sandro, I can't remember too many complaints from posters then.

 

[Millsy_Yiddo]

Don't you think though that It would be strange for Dembele to suddenly start seeing these opportunities at the age of 26 (or whatever he is) Isn't it more likely that he is simply playing to the manager's instructions?

I think he probably always seen the passes, just didn't know when to hold on to and when to release the ball (or couldn't make a decision on it quick enough). Again, in the specific example that I gave, I can't see how a manager could seriously want him not to put someone through on goal no matter what their system/style/philosophy is.

Overall general play wise, in a broad sense he's obviously playing to the managers instructions (as are all the players) and some of his improvement may have come from Poch allowing him a little more freedom, but there were still many, many situations under AVB where he didn't release the ball when he should have and also ones where he held on to it and shouldn't have. In the same situations now he makes better decisions.

Ignore 'systems' and 'philosophies' for a moment and think about what fundamentally makes a good footballer. He's a better player now because he makes better decisions on the ball, nothing else to it.

 

[Finney Is Back]

I think he probably always seen the passes, just didn't know when to hold on to and when to release the ball (or couldn't make a decision on it quick enough). Again, in the specific example that I gave, I can't see how a manager could seriously want him not to put someone through on goal no matter what their system/style/philosophy is.

Overall general play wise, in a broad sense he's obviously playing to the managers instructions (as are all the players) and some of his improvement may have come from Poch allowing him a little more freedom, but there were still many, many situations under AVB where he didn't release the ball when he should have and also ones where he held on to it and shouldn't have. In the same situations now he makes better decisions.

Ignore 'systems' and 'philosophies' for a moment and think about what fundamentally makes a good footballer. He's a better player now because he makes better decisions on the ball, nothing else to it.

Well I think you have to consider what the manager's primary aim is.... Under AVB it seemed to me that it was to keep the ball. The instruction was likely to be "keep possession at all costs, do not play risky passes that may result in us losing possession. Always play the easy ball". With such an instruction it is easy to see how a player would think twice about playing a through ball.

Pochettino's instructions are more likely to be along the lines of "Pass forwards whenever you can, especially if we are already in an advanced area".

Something as simply as that can make a huge difference to a player. The fact that Dembele always got in AVB's first choice team and that he has suddenly been able to be more dynamic at the age of 26 leads me to strongly believe that he just plays the way his manager wants him to. Hopefully we'll see an interview with Dembele soon where we get an idea of what Poch is asking of him and how that differs from the previous managers (I am hoping this interview will come at the same time he signs a new contract for us).

 

[braineclipse]

Well this is true but I think there is no mistaking his propensity to have a shot or through ball has diminished, and yes this probably coincided with his move further back the pitch. I don't need to draw a line between those two facts but I honestly think there is more to it than that. I do think the 'risk' was coached out of him to a point where didn't take any.

Actually in saying all that my own opinion is that that his improvement this season over previous ones is actually more marginal than comments on here would have you believe. I'm in the camp the was always worth his place in the team and he is playing pretty much as he always did with just few more risks thrown in. Also he seems a little more physical than before but that could be my mind playing tricks on me. Anyway whatever the reason I'm glad he was not one of the players culled.

I think billy is spot on. To add to what he's saying it's a lot easier to look effective and "mentally quick" against weaker opposition.

His performances, and weaknesses, at Fulham quite closely mirror what he's done for us. He's stepped it up this season and hopefully he'll continue to improve.

 

[Millsy_Yiddo]

Well I think you have to consider what the manager's primary aim is.... Under AVB it seemed to me that it was to keep the ball. The instruction was likely to be "keep possession at all costs, do not play risky passes that may result in us losing possession. Always play the easy ball". With such an instruction it is easy to see how a player would think twice about playing a through ball.

Even under AVB he didn't always do that though. As I said previous his issue was not knowing when to release the ball and when to hold on to it rather than holding on to the ball when he shouldn't or not playing the easy ball. There were also many occasions under AVB where the 'easy' pass in midfield was on and he'd turn three or four times before either playing the easy pass later than he should have or losing the ball.

Now he receives the ball, evaluates the situation and makes a better decision on whether to hold on to the ball or release it. 9 times out of 10 now he gets it right, previous he got it right maybe 6 out of 10. It didn't always result in a disaster, but it did slow our play up.

I suspect we're probably both right to a certain extent and it is a combination of coaching and manager instructions, as you say it would be good to hear some kind of interview from him commenting on what Poch's methods have done for him.

 

[braineclipse]

Even under AVB he didn't always do that though. As I said previous his issue was not knowing when to release the ball and when to hold on to it rather than holding on to the ball when he shouldn't or not playing the easy ball. There were also many occasions under AVB where the 'easy' pass in midfield was on and he'd turn three or four times before either playing the easy pass later than he should have or losing the ball.

Now he receives the ball, evaluates the situation and makes a better decision on whether to hold on to the ball or release it. 9 times out of 10 now he gets it right, previous he got it right maybe 6 out of 10. It didn't always result in a disaster, but it did slow our play up.

I suspect we're probably both right to a certain extent and it is a combination of coaching and manager instructions, as you say it would be good to hear some kind of interview from him commenting on what Poch's methods have done for him.

I know this is nitpicky, and to a great extent we probably agree. But this is part of the problem he's had. He's received the ball then evaluated the situation. Compare that to some of the players we've had, and have, that are very good at pass and move football they often seem capable of evaluating the situation before they get the ball. That's what makes the quick and purposeful 1 or 2 touch pass possible.

It's a rather difficult and complex skill to learn though. Not surprising that some of our younger players are better at this than him, it seems to be one of the things we really work on with our academy/development lads.