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Mousa Dembele

Most posters on here wanted him sold after the first few games. Others wanted him to stay but only as a squad player. Still Others, very much the minority, could see the influence he had on games last season such as Liverpool, Chelsea, goons last season and absolutely wanted him to stay. Despite some posts to the contrary there is a certain amount of back tracking taking place, people don't want to admit they were just plain wrong. Despite all of that it is great to have so many differences of opinion. We can now agree on 2 things
1) the moose has been brilliant this season and along with Kane, lloris and alderweireld is a key component of the team's spine.
2) none of us should manage Spurs.
 
Who do you think is back-tracking Rob?

I would have sold him in the summer as I didn't see him as a starter in a quick passing team and thought the 15m or so would have got for him would have been better re-invested - bare in mid we looked to be in the market for a DM of sorts and Mason and Bentaleb looked good bets for the other CM position - so as I saw it a player not suited to our style would have been sold and a player like Bender or whoever else was being touted would have come in. Doesn't mean I was wanting Dembele to be sold because I thought he was a bad player, just that logically I thought it was potentially the right move (Squad player out - first team player in)

Now I'm happy to see Dembele showing himself capable of playing away i doubted he could, or more learning not not to hold on to ball for too long.
 
Robspur12 said:
Most posters on here wanted him sold after the first few games. Others wanted him to stay but only as a squad player. Still Others, very much the minority, could see the influence he had on games last season such as Liverpool, Chelsea, goons last season and absolutely wanted him to stay. Despite some posts to the contrary there is a certain amount of back tracking taking place, people don't want to admit they were just plain wrong. Despite all of that it is great to have so many differences of opinion. We can now agree on 2 things
1) the moose has been brilliant this season and along with Kane, lloris and alderweireld is a key component of the team's spine.
2) none of us should manage Spurs.
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OK, time to wade in! ;)

I am one of the people who very clearly held his hand in the air and said I was delighted Dembele had proven me wrong. I kept it simple for ease of understanding. But this is becoming an unnecessarily divisive issue it seems. I will speak, as ever, for my self. I never doubted his talent but absolutely doubted his application and mood. He was being played in positions which didn't work and he was slowing down a side which already played with either no pace or one shot of it in the Bale era. He was frequently injured and could not seem to get a run of fitness. He was an immense frustration, and I absolutely felt that unless someone found a magic key, much like (say) Soldado, he'd be best off set free and finding himself at a new club.

Poch obviously worked very hard with the player, and the player obviously bought in. Between the pair of them, we are seeing him in all his potential. It is fantastic but a year ago, I think most IF THEY WERE HONEST would say a very unlikely prospect.

I agree wholeheartedly with the bold-faced sentence above Rob mate, and for me, that's where we should all be :)
 
Robspur12 said:
Most posters on here wanted him sold after the first few games. Others wanted him to stay but only as a squad player. Still Others, very much the minority, could see the influence he had on games last season such as Liverpool, Chelsea, goons last season and absolutely wanted him to stay. Despite some posts to the contrary there is a certain amount of back tracking taking place, people don't want to admit they were just plain wrong. Despite all of that it is great to have so many differences of opinion. We can now agree on 2 things
1) the moose has been brilliant this season and along with Kane, lloris and alderweireld is a key component of the team's spine.
2) none of us should manage Spurs.
Click to expand...

Most didn't want him sold. Most were happy to hold onto him as a squad player, if he was happy with that. There were a small vocal minority at either extreme. Since then he has upped his game and improved massively on the areas where he was falling short.
 
billyiddo said:
Who do you think is back-tracking Rob?

I would have sold him in the summer as I didn't see him as a starter in a quick passing team and thought the 15m or so would have got for him would have been better re-invested - bare in mid we looked to be in the market for a DM of sorts and Mason and Bentaleb looked good bets for the other CM position - so as I saw it a player not suited to our style would have been sold and a player like Bender or whoever else was being touted would have come in. Doesn't mean I was wanting Dembele to be sold because I thought he was a bad player, just that logically I thought it was potentially the right move (Squad player out - first team player in)

Now I'm happy to see Dembele showing himself capable of playing away i doubted he could, or more learning not not to hold on to ball for too long.
Click to expand...
Fair play bill. I was just being a bit mischievous, probably my age. I enjoy reading well argued differences of opinion which there often are on here. Not meant to be divisive steff, we are all fans so all good imho.
 
If it meant having the funds for a back to Harry Then yes the dembelle of last year could easily have been sold. The dembelle of this season, not a chance. It's about priorities and luckily the player we all knew was in there has emerged this season. Good on him and well done to whoever brought it out of him.
 
I do agree that this conversation is silly. Much more interesting when people have opinions, especially when they differ. At the moment they have converged because Dembele is doing well. Long may it continue. And long may people bring their views to the table. The more ridiculous the better. As Gutterboy has long known.
 
Can you imagine if we had sold Dembele and he had gone on to have the season he's having now for another team. We'd be pulling our hair! (and probably also saying he was never a fit for Spurs and needed to move to show his potential) o_O
 
I quite like this discussion. For me, the point I was trying to make was that some people had completely written off Dembele. I'm not talking about the people that were just frustrated with his performances but could see him as a squad player, but I am talking about those that completely wanted him sold because he would never fit in.

We have a number of examples of players who had been written off by a number of fans and have now redeemed themselves. If we are to learn anything from this, it would be to write off players at your peril. Sometimes, just giving the player a chance or trusting a manager's judgement is needed by us and we need to show a bit more patience. For me, if a player shows potential then they deserve to have a bit of patience. Kane is the ultimate example of this, but Lamela, Dembele, Walker, Rose and Mason are all examples of players that have turned things around.

Of our current squad I would say that Carroll and Chadli are the ones that perhaps we should show a bit more patience to rather than write them off. Both players have shown potential to be good players, so let's support them. Poch obviously has an eye for a player, so let's trust his judgement.
 
Robspur12 said:
Fair play bill. I was just being a bit mischievous, probably my age. I enjoy reading well argued differences of opinion which there often are on here. Not meant to be divisive steff, we are all fans so all good imho.
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I know mate, apologies if I insinuated as much.
 
Gazzasrightboot said:
I quite like this discussion. For me, the point I was trying to make was that some people had completely written off Dembele. I'm not talking about the people that were just frustrated with his performances but could see him as a squad player, but I am talking about those that completely wanted him sold because he would never fit in.

We have a number of examples of players who had been written off by a number of fans and have now redeemed themselves. If we are to learn anything from this, it would be to write off players at your peril. Sometimes, just giving the player a chance or trusting a manager's judgement is needed by us and we need to show a bit more patience. For me, if a player shows potential then they deserve to have a bit of patience. Kane is the ultimate example of this, but Lamela, Dembele, Walker, Rose and Mason are all examples of players that have turned things around.

Of our current squad I would say that Carroll and Chadli are the ones that perhaps we should show a bit more patience to rather than write them off. Both players have shown potential to be good players, so let's support them. Poch obviously has an eye for a player, so let's trust his judgement.
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Every club/transfer has players that don't work for a lot of reasons.

I think the interesting thing with this particular version of Poch's Spurs is
- We have a philosophy/style of play, where a player can understand exactly what is expected of him, both in training and on pitch
- Interestingly we seem willing to give players a bit longer to get to that understanding (provided the application/talent is there)

Think that gives us much better odds of player working out for us in long run.
 
alekaras said:
Can you imagine if we had sold Dembele and he had gone on to have the season he's having now for another team. We'd be pulling our hair! (and probably also saying he was never a fit for Spurs and needed to move to show his potential) o_O
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I do not think that we would have seen the improvement we have seen in Dembele this season under a different manager at a different club.
 
Finney Is Back said:
I guess the question there was whether this was a failing of the player or a player playing the way his manager wanted? It seemed to me that all of our players were guilty of slowing the game down back then and we were a keep possession at all costs type of team.
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I don't think there's any manager on the planet (if there is there shouldn't be) that would want a player to purposefully avoid playing a pass that puts someone through on goal. I really find that hard to believe.
 
Millsy_Yiddo said:
I don't think there's any manager on the planet (if there is there shouldn't be) that would want a player to purposefully avoid playing a pass that puts someone through on goal. I really find that hard to believe.
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Not all managers want fast transitions of play. Dembele's old style of play was perfect for AVB's style of possession football and him and Sandro were a well balanced partnership for that.
 
Raziel said:
Every club/transfer has players that don't work for a lot of reasons.

I think the interesting thing with this particular version of Poch's Spurs is
- We have a philosophy/style of play, where a player can understand exactly what is expected of him, both in training and on pitch
- Interestingly we seem willing to give players a bit longer to get to that understanding (provided the application/talent is there)

Think that gives us much better odds of player working out for us in long run.
Click to expand...

Raz, I'm not going to disagree with anything that you have said as I believe all of it. The point about us giving players a bit longer is absolutely true and the best example of this is Lamela. But, it is the fans that don't really give the time and Dembele is a case in point. A fair few had had enough, and felt that he would be a squad option at best despite the fact that they could see potential. This is where I think as fans we need to be better and show a little more patience. There's no point, imho, in writing off a player until really our management has. So, the next time we start with Carroll, let's not wait for him to make a mistake before saying "he needs to go" "he's a waste of space".

I really do think that Poch's record in this is such that if he decides to start with a player that we are not expecting, he has done so with the best of intentions and is starting from a base of higher knowledge than anyone of us has. I'm not advocating that we should not discuss it, but there's not much discussion to be had when people just write off a player especially when there are plenty of examples where some of the fans have been wrong. I think that this is an important point as it is obvious that Poch wants to sign youth and give youth a chance. He is showing support even in the face of adversity. I think that we as fans should adopt the same attitude and make WHL, or the new stadium, a place where our players are not worried about being booed/moaned/gasped at when they make a mistake.
 
Gazzasrightboot said:
Raz, I'm not going to disagree with anything that you have said as I believe all of it. The point about us giving players a bit longer is absolutely true and the best example of this is Lamela. But, it is the fans that don't really give the time and Dembele is a case in point. A fair few had had enough, and felt that he would be a squad option at best despite the fact that they could see potential. This is where I think as fans we need to be better and show a little more patience. There's no point, imho, in writing off a player until really our management has. So, the next time we start with Carroll, let's not wait for him to make a mistake before saying "he needs to go" "he's a waste of space".

I really do think that Poch's record in this is such that if he decides to start with a player that we are not expecting, he has done so with the best of intentions and is starting from a base of higher knowledge than anyone of us has. I'm not advocating that we should not discuss it, but there's not much discussion to be had when people just write off a player especially when there are plenty of examples where some of the fans have been wrong. I think that this is an important point as it is obvious that Poch wants to sign youth and give youth a chance. He is showing support even in the face of adversity. I think that we as fans should adopt the same attitude and make WHL, or the new stadium, a place where our players are not worried about being booed/moaned/gasped at when they make a mistake.
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I was following your point mate (not countering it) :)

Wish we as fans could be more patient (wish I could be), to your point, however the challenge is, supporting Spurs is a purely emotional thing .. hence logic often fails to apply ..
 
milo said:
I do not think that we would have seen the improvement we have seen in Dembele this season under a different manager at a different club.
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I don't think we can be so sure about that. There are probably a few teams and managers whose style of play and player management might have allowed Dembele to flourish.
 
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