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Jordon Peterson

braineclipse said:
Who are these people who are saying that those women can't identify as, or can't be called, women?

This may be my ignorance, but I've literally never heard or been exposed to that argument. Who are the people, with influence or power, who are making these arguments? Give me any example of that and chances are I'll disagree with what they're saying I think.

Some people are asking for specific, gender neutral language when talking about specific issues. I'm fine with that, I think it makes sense, but I also don't think it's a very important issue right now. How they choose to use their words is up to them of course, I think it's fine that they put their point across about how they want others to use language.

Some trans men menstruate. Depends on how much transition stuff they've chosen or been able to go through. They will identify as men. Their gender is then imo male. I think and talk about them as men. Thus, some men menstruate.
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Scottish NHS issued an online pamphlet replacing mother with chest feeder.
Was quickly taken down.
I will say again i am coming to this from a point of ignorance, not contention, I'm not looking for an argument, I'm looking for opinions.
So men don't menstrate, woman who think they are/want to be men menstrate, but men don't?
 
glasgowspur said:
Scottish NHS issued an online pamphlet replacing mother with chest feeder.
Was quickly taken down.
I will say again i am coming to this from a point of ignorance, not contention, I'm not looking for an argument, I'm looking for opinions.
So men don't menstrate, woman who think they are/want to be men menstrate, but men don't?
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Hadn't heard of that. Don't know if the following link is descriptive or what happened.

https://www.glasgowtimes.co.uk/news...terms-introduced-nhs-trust-boost-inclusivity/

Staff have been asked to use gender-neutral language alongside – not instead of – traditional terms to ensure that all groups are represented

(...)

The language changes do not apply when discussing or caring for individuals in a one-on-one capacity, the document says.

Instead, language and documentation should reflect the gender identity of the individual.

Some of the terms being adopted are:

– “Breast/chestfeeding”, in place of “breastfeeding”;
– “Human milk” or “breast/chestmilk” or “milk from the feeding mother or parent”, in place of “breastmilk”;
– “Maternal and parental” or “maternal/parental”, in place of “maternal”;
– “Woman or person”, in place of “woman”.
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I think that's quite some way off saying that people can't be called or identify as women? I would have little issue with this as a policy in a health care setting.

I did not get the impression that you were coming at this from a point of contention. I will gladly admit to having my fair share of ignorance about these topics. I do consider myself less ignorant on these issues than I have been in the past though.

I think of trans men as men as long as they themselves think of their gender as male, regardless of where they are in their transitioning process. So from that I think some men can menstruate.

Though if one prefers to think of it as "some trans men can menstruate" rather than "some men can menstruate" I think relatively little is lost in this particular conversation. Though I'm sure many trans men prefer to be thought of, and talked about, as men rather than trans men most of the time.
 
braineclipse said:
Hadn't heard of that. Don't know if the following link is descriptive or what happened.

https://www.glasgowtimes.co.uk/news...terms-introduced-nhs-trust-boost-inclusivity/



I think that's quite some way off saying that people can't be called or identify as women? I would have little issue with this as a policy in a health care setting.

I did not get the impression that you were coming at this from a point of contention. I will gladly admit to having my fair share of ignorance about these topics. I do consider myself less ignorant on these issues than I have been in the past though.

I think of trans men as men as long as they themselves think of their gender as male, regardless of where they are in their transitioning process. So from that I think some men can menstruate.

Though if one prefers to think of it as "some trans men can menstruate" rather than "some men can menstruate" I think relatively little is lost in this particular conversation. Though I'm sure many trans men prefer to be thought of, and talked about, as men rather than trans men most of the time.
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Being a dim/ignorant i'm never quite sure if a trans man is a man being a woman or vice versa.
Lazy, or lack of real interest on my part.
You genuinely sounded like you knew what you were talking about, that's why i jumped in.
I don't really care what people identify as, show others the same respect that you want for yourself, treat others as you would like to be treated has long been my mantra.
You can can call yourself bingo and identify as the queens favourite corgi as far I'm concerned, and i will gladly accept it, just don't expect me to keep track of it.

No the link isn't the same case, it was an online only article published by a SNHS health board, it was quickly pulled as an error.
Would not be surprised if it would be a struggle to find it, the SNP are very good at burying stuff.
 
I don't have a problem with that, it's inclusive on a general info site, the one to one doctor and patient care will still be the same and correct for the specific individual.
 
Baleforce said:
I don't have a problem with that, it's inclusive on a general info site, the one to one doctor and patient care will still be the same and correct for the specific individual.
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Would be interested to hear a woman’s opinion on that. You often hear women say it shouldn’t be up to men to decide what a woman does with her body in the context of getting an abortion, which is a view I happen to agree with, you could argue it’s a similar case here. I have no issue at all with calling a trans woman a woman, but this sort of stuff is essentially marginalising biological women to spare the feelings of a another sub-group (trans). If trans women are women then surely women who were born as women and identity as women should have the right to be called a woman too?
 
Jurgen the German said:
Would be interested to hear a woman’s opinion on that. You often hear women say it shouldn’t be up to men to decide what a woman does with her body in the context of getting an abortion, which is a view I happen to agree with, you could argue it’s a similar case here. I have no issue at all with calling a trans woman a woman, but this sort of stuff is essentially marginalising biological women to spare the feelings of a another sub-group (trans). If trans women are women then surely women who were born as women and identity as women should have the right to be called a woman too?
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I'm not sure your point makes sense. Women can still be called women.

It is similar to an NHS website talking about circumcising a penis, it might just say "a penis" instead of "a man's penis" but that is no big deal and suits everyone, regardless of how they self identify... if they have a penis and are considering circumcision it is relevant info.
 
Bullet said:
I'm not sure your point makes sense. Women can still be called women.

It is similar to an NHS website talking about circumcising a penis, it might just say "a penis" instead of "a man's penis" but that is no big deal and suits everyone, regardless of how they self identify... if they have a penis and are considering circumcision it is relevant info.
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But is it really necessary to remove the word “woman” when talking about when referring to menopause? I think most reasonable people can keep two thoughts in their heads at the same time; biological women go through the menopause, trans women don’t but are still women. I do not see how continuing to use the word “woman” in this context is exclusionary to trans people. They are all women but they are not all the same, there are clearly different kinds of women.

This is why I feel so strongly about trans participation in sport. They should be allowed to compete and we need to find a way to include them, but not against biological women. Fairness has to come above inclusivity in my opinion.
 
Jurgen the German said:
Would be interested to hear a woman’s opinion on that. You often hear women say it shouldn’t be up to men to decide what a woman does with her body in the context of getting an abortion, which is a view I happen to agree with, you could argue it’s a similar case here. I have no issue at all with calling a trans woman a woman, but this sort of stuff is essentially marginalising biological women to spare the feelings of a another sub-group (trans). If trans women are women then surely women who were born as women and identity as women should have the right to be called a woman too?
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How is it marginalising them? It’s making the included group bigger.

It does’t mean they stop thinking of people as women, just that the topic is relevant to those who identify differently.

Nothing is being taken away.
 
Baleforce said:
How is it marginalising them? It’s making the included group bigger.

It does’t mean they stop thinking of people as women, just that the topic is relevant to those who identify differently.

Nothing is being taken away.
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But how does using the word “woman” in this context exclude trans people? I think most people can see the distinction between women who were born and identify as women and trans women.
 
braineclipse said:
A choice not to use the word woman in that particular context is not the same as saying women can't identify as women or be called women.

In this particular context some people chose to use different words. I don't think it's a big deal at all.
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I made no comment, i posted a link for reference, make of it what you want.
 
Jurgen the German said:
But how does using the word “woman” in this context exclude trans people? I think most people can see the distinction between women who were born and identify as women and trans women.
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It excludes trans men and non binary people and all the other 500 terms who will go through the menopause but don't identify as women. You are thinking about it backwards
 
I don't think leaving the word woman out of the advice is a big deal at all. But can see some feminist groups taking exception. The alt right will, but they will use any excuse.

Tbh i don't even know who the alt right are or woke or whatever. Never went to university. Just base my view on what i think is fair.
 
Bullet said:
It excludes trans men and non binary people and all the other 500 terms who will go through the menopause but don't identify as women. You are thinking about it backwards
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Would be interested to see some polls measure public opinion on this kind of thing.
 
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