Jordon Peterson

[Jurgen the German]

I think those terms now being seen as politically incorrect contributes to people using them less. I think that's better for people that those slurs are aimed at.

I also think it contributes to changing attitudes. If you grow up in an environment where using slurs about minorities is accepted I think it's more likely that you end up holding negative views of those minorities.

I think the resistance against that, a call for political correctness, can help people change their attitudes.

I think that’s just human decency and a slow change in attitudes and the zeitgeist changing rather than a triumph of PC. And also you learn more about marginalised groups the more time you spend with them. I have worked in London for 6 years and as you can imagine, the offices I have worked in are cosmopolitan and diverse so you are bound to broaden your horizons as you interact with different people more and more.

 

[braineclipse]

Grouping people by skin colour? Seems that's only allowed when the skin colour is white. If not racist it's hypocritical.

Congratulations on repeatedly avoiding engaging with the topic at hand.

Who has given you the impression that talking about varying economic outcomes for groups based on skin colour is only allowed when the skin colour is white?

Shall we play another round of
this is what people say followed by no examples of people saying it? It's a fun game.

 

[Lilbaz]

Congratulations on repeatedly avoiding engaging with the topic at hand.

Who has given you the impression that talking about varying economic outcomes for groups based on skin colour is only allowed when the skin colour is white?

Shall we play another round of
this is what people say followed by no examples of people saying it? It's a fun game.

You shouldn't group anyone based on skin colour, economically or otherwise. There are billionaire black people and white people living on the street.

 

[glasgowspur]

In the short term you may very well be right. Over a somewhat longer term I definitely think it's moving in what I consider to be the right direction.



I've heard several of these arguments. Mostly as reactions from people like Peterson and Rogan who criticise the "woke", "left", etc. Who then have a rather easy time making counterarguments. For sure some on the left will say things like the above, I disagree with it. But I don't think those are frequent arguments from people on the left with power and/or influence.

White privelege is a thing. White people on the West have benefitted from colonialism, the slave trade etc. White people continue to get the lasting benefits of that to a greater extent than non white people.

Some of the vote vote remain was motivated by racism.

Some of the backlash against the new star wars films has been a result of sexism and racism.

I don't care about Heard or Depp anywhere near enough to have an opinion.

It's not transphobic to not want teams women to fight in the MMA. Saying "it's a fudging man" about a trans woman is.

Trans people and prisons is not well enough handled at all and new solutions must be found.

Do you think accusations from people like Peterson about people on the left have a similar effect?

In some of your examples the very numbers involved will mean that there is a racist, homophobic or transphobic element.
That doesn't mean that all white people, brexiteers or women whose perception that their rights are being eroded are in the racist, homophobic or transphobic.
The more i read about petterson the more i think he is a clam, although i acknowledge that that in itself is unfair because I'm judging him on other people's opinions.

 

[braineclipse]

You shouldn't group anyone based on skin colour, economically or otherwise. There are billionaire black people and white people living on the street.

Say that non white people make less money and have less money on average compared to white people somewhere.

That comparison shouldn't even be made? If it's made by someone it shouldn't be talked about?

And disagreement with that is hypocritical?

 

[Lilbaz]

Say that non white people make less money and have less money on average compared to white people somewhere.

That comparison shouldn't even be made? If it's made by someone it shouldn't be talked about?

And disagreement with that is hypocritical?

No it shouldn't be made. Every persons situation is different.

The hypocritical part is if i made a negative assumption of someone based solely on the colour of their skin, i would be called out on it as it being racist (and rightfully so). The hypocritical part is that the same people that would call me out, have no problem about making negative assumptions of me based on the fact that i have white skin. That i benefited from colonialism etc...

 

[braineclipse]

In some of your examples the very numbers involved will mean that there is a racist, homophobic or transphobic element.
That doesn't mean that all white people, brexiteers or women whose perception that their rights are being eroded are in the racist, homophobic or transphobic.
The more i read about petterson the more i think he is a clam, although i acknowledge that that in itself is unfair because I'm judging him on other people's opinions.

I think we agree.

 

[braineclipse]

No it shouldn't be made. Every persons situation is different.

The hypocritical part is if i made a negative assumption of someone based solely on the colour of their skin, i would be called out on it as it being racist (and rightfully so). The hypocritical part is that the same people that would call me out, have no problem about making negative assumptions of me based on the fact that i have white skin. That i benefited from colonialism etc...

Talking about group differences isn't in conflict with the fact that every person is in a different situation. My example above in no way shape or form indicates that people's situations aren't different.

If I say "white privelege is a real thing" or "I think white people on average benefit from colonialism to this day, on average, as a group" I make no assumptions about you I think.

Or am I then making negative assumptions about you based on the colour of your skin by saying that?

 

[glasgowspur]

Talking about group differences isn't in conflict with the fact that every person is in a different situation. My example above in no way shape or form indicates that people's situations aren't different.

If I say "white privelege is a real thing" or "I think white people on average benefit from colonialism to this day, on average, as a group" I make no assumptions about you I think.

Or am I then making negative assumptions about you based on the colour of your skin by saying that?

In my experience the longer debates around these subjects go on the more chance one or more of the contributors get loose or lazy in their language and it gets jumped upon.
I'm white, a man and heterosexual (but not dumb enough to vote brexit), so in the post i quoted earlier i can see that it could be interpretated as a dig at me because I belong to those groups.
At no point though did i actually believe that it was*, because i don't for a second think you are a bigot or a hypocrite, but i can see how defensive people are becoming they basically being outed for something they aren't based on other people's behaviour.

* not claiming I'm a paragon of virtue. I think at some level we all have a bit of the bigot in us, its acknowledging it and dealing with it that is important.

 

[Lilbaz]

Talking about group differences isn't in conflict with the fact that every person is in a different situation. My example above in no way shape or form indicates that people's situations aren't different.

If I say "white privelege is a real thing" or "I think white people on average benefit from colonialism to this day, on average, as a group" I make no assumptions about you I think.

Or am I then making negative assumptions about you based on the colour of your skin by saying that?

The left/labour used to be for the working class. Keeping the gap between the rich and poor to a minimum. Now it seems to be for minority groups and white people (mostly men) seem to be the enemy. For many working class white people in the uk, they feel they no longer have a party that represents them. So in steps ukip, saying we hear you. So millions vote for them. They disappear. So they vote tory. The red wall demolished.
Starmer seems to have recognised the problem and has tried to get rid of momentum and the like, but it is a work in progress.

I have never voted anyone but labour.

So all this talk of colonialism and white privilege is damaging. Everyone should get an equal opportunity in life. If anyone has privilege it's the rich. But we shouldn't aim to tear them down. We need to elevate the poor.

 

[glasgowspur]

The left/labour used to be for the working class. Keeping the gap between the rich and poor to a minimum. Now it seems to be for minority groups and white people (mostly men) seem to be the enemy. For many working class white people in the uk, they feel they no longer have a party that represents them. So in steps ukip, saying we hear you. So millions vote for them. They disappear. So they vote tory. The red wall demolished.
Starmer seems to have recognised the problem and has tried to get rid of momentum and the like, but it is a work in progress.

I have never voted anyone but labour.

So all this talk of colonialism and white privilege is damaging. Everyone should get an equal opportunity in life. If anyone has privilege it's the rich. But we shouldn't aim to tear them down. We need to elevate the poor.

It's difficult to convince anyone brought up in the squalor of the 50s/60s and 70s that they have white privilege.
Compare what those people lived like with what an immigrant family now experiences in the uk and that's a very difficult case to make.
I'm just old enough to remember the conditions i was raised in in one of the worst housing estates in the UK, compared to today it's night and day.

 

[Lilbaz]

It's difficult to convince anyone brought up in the squalor of the 50s/60s and 70s that they have white privilege.
Compare what those people lived like with what an immigrant family now experiences in the uk and that's a very difficult case to make.
I'm just old enough to remember the conditions i was raised in in one of the worst housing estates in the UK, compared to today it's night and day.

My father was irish. My mothers family were roma/coal miners. Spent a lot of my youth in ireland, no running water, electricity toilet was at the bottom of the garden so at night you'd tinkle out a window. Lived on a council estate in london. So i don't relate to colonialism or white privilege.

Don't get me wrong, i've lived in india and se asia, so have seen real poverty. The slums of mumbai etc... But the countyside was not much different.

 

[AuroRaman]

My father was irish. My mothers family were roma/coal miners. Spent a lot of my youth in ireland, no running water, electricity toilet was at the bottom of the garden so at night you'd tinkle out a window. Lived on a council estate in london. So i don't relate to colonialism or white privilege.

Don't get me wrong, i've lived in india and se asia, so have seen real poverty. The slums of mumbai etc... But the countyside was not much different.

There is such a thing as being the ‘wrong’ type of white person. My partner is Polish and despite living here for many years, she experiences the ill-effects of white privilege against her. The same would be said for your parents. Irish people have been among the most mistreated group in the UK. White people can and are affected by white privilege, it’s not exclusive to POC.

 

[Lilbaz]

There is such a thing as being the ‘wrong’ type of white person. My partner is Polish and despite living here for many years, she experiences the ill-effects of white privilege against her. The same would be said for your parents. Irish people have been among the most mistreated group in the UK. White people can and are affected by white privilege, it’s not exclusive to POC.

I see it more as a class or wealth issue rather than skin colour. People judge others on appearance but also how they speak. Yes skin colour can be a factor for some, but how you dress, how good looking you are, if you're over weight, aggressive or charming, if you remind them of someone they hate/love. All have a factor in how people react to you.
The police get a lot of stick, some deserved, some not. But it was the officers that asked for bodycams. Because they wanted interactions with the public recorded.

 

[Rorschach]

White privilege isn't that you have not been the victim of prejudice or discrimination. It is just less likely to be because of the colour of your skin.

 

[Lilbaz]

White privilege isn't that you have not been the victim of prejudice or discrimination. It is just less likely to be because of the colour of your skin.

And who measures that?

 

[Baleforce]

I see it more as a class or wealth issue rather than skin colour. People judge others on appearance but also how they speak. Yes skin colour can be a factor for some, but how you dress, how good looking you are, if you're over weight, aggressive or charming, if you remind them of someone they hate/love. All have a factor in how people react to you.
The police get a lot of stick, some deserved, some not. But it was the officers that asked for bodycams. Because they wanted interactions with the public recorded.

Skin colour is (if I’ve correctly remembered my unconscious bias training) the second thing we notice in a person after their sex.

We are predisposed to judge on this. It’s remembering that we have that instinctive flaw that’s important.

 

[Lilbaz]

Skin colour is (if I’ve correctly remembered my unconscious bias training) the second thing we notice in a person after their sex.

We are predisposed to judge on this. It’s remembering that we have that instinctive flaw that’s important.

Ok who would you rather have lunch with based on looks alone?

 

[Rorschach]

And who measures that?

There are countless studies on implicit racial bias. Is that what you mean?

 

[Rorschach]

Ok who would you rather have lunch with based on looks alone?

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Neither for me as I'm straight.

Seriously though, this question you ask is to show what? At best I think it might show an explicit racial bias is stronger than some other bias a person may have, but that is not the discussion here.