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Jordon Peterson

So would anyone object if i used slag as my pronoun?
At my age can't afford to be fussy and advertising never hurt.
braineclipse said:
Sure.

I think it's a good thing if people then say that actually the words I use are experienced as insulting.

Then I have the choice and freedom to either continue being insulting or to adjust.
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Being fairly ignorant in these matters, when do you use the pronoun?
Is just at introduction?
All the time?
 
glasgowspur said:
So would anyone object if i used slag as my pronoun?
At my age can't afford to be fussy and advertising never hurt.


Being fairly ignorant in these matters, when do you use the pronoun?
Is just at introduction?
All the time?
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"a word that can function as a noun phrase used by itself and that refers either to the participants in the discourse (e.g. I, you ) or to someone or something mentioned elsewhere in the discourse (e.g. she, it, this )."

So instead of saying "he" or "him" you use a different word. Like "they". In the same situations you would use other pronouns.
 
Jurgen the German said:
As long as companies don’t force people to put their pronouns in their emails. People should have the right to opt out if they wish.
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Is that actually a thing though, in my place it's completely optional.

If it is a thing, the issue isn't pronouns, it is that companies management.
 
Baleforce said:
Is that actually a thing though, in my place it's completely optional.

If it is a thing, the issue isn't pronouns, it is that companies management.
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I’ve heard anecdotal stories of people being “asked” or “encouraged” to put their pronouns in emails and some feel pressured to do so through fear of backlash if they don’t and not being a team player
 
Mosquito_Coasting said:
It’s a bit like those who got angry about others wearing masks during the pandemic.
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Getting angry is silly. But some of it is also unnecessary, like people wearing them outside when there’s no science that backs up the logic that you can catch it outdoors. Or wearing one in a car with no passengers. If you’re a relatively young, healthy person, play the odds a little. I completely understand vulnerable people shielding and taking extra precautions wearing a mask outside is not that.
 
Jurgen the German said:
How do you know it is not a pronoun? It is a recognised identify under the LGTBQ umbrella.
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I can't know that no one uses any specific word as a pronoun.

I've never seen it used as a pronoun. You've given me no examples despite claiming that you think it is a pronoun. You've not linked it to anyone describing it as a pronoun.

Identity, sure. People have a lot of different identities and descriptions of who they are. That doesn't make those words pronouns.

I really don't understand what the issue is with someone using that word to describe their sexual preferences. What issues does it cause?
 
braineclipse said:
I can't know that no one uses any specific word as a pronoun.

I've never seen it used as a pronoun. You've given me no examples despite claiming that you think it is a pronoun. You've not linked it to anyone describing it as a pronoun.

Identity, sure. People have a lot of different identities and descriptions of who they are. That doesn't make those words pronouns.

I really don't understand what the issue is with someone using that word to describe their sexual preferences. What issues does it cause?
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Ah it appears I’ve got my wires completely crossed and have confused preferences with pronouns.

I just think a lot of labels or preferences are superfluous. But that’s just my opinion.
 
Jurgen the German said:
Ah it appears I’ve got my wires completely crossed and have confused preferences with pronouns.

I just think a lot of labels or preferences are superfluous. But that’s just my opinion.
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Ah, that explains it. Happens to the best of us at times, even Peterson probably...

They may be superfluous, particularly if they don't apply to me or you or they seem self evident. But I do think people find meaning and understanding through having a language for these things and that can be a good thing.
 
braineclipse said:
Ah, that explains it. Happens to the best of us at times, even Peterson probably...

They may be superfluous, particularly if they don't apply to me or you or they seem self evident. But I do think people find meaning and understanding through having a language for these things and that can be a good thing.
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Sign of the times we live in I guess.

On the subject of trans women/people as a whole, I do think most people support their rights to exist and not be harassed, to compete in sport etc. But we should also bare in mind that a lot of these changes are very new. It took time for everyone to get on board with gay rights (especially older generations), there will always be idiots who want to indulge their prejudices, but i overall I think we have won that battle. Just look at how many major companies celebrate pride month. It will a similar case for trans rights IMO. There’s plenty of debates swirling around trans participation in sport. A lot of the science is in its infancy. I do think the trans lobby and organisations like Stonewall don’t help the situation with some of the rhetoric they come out with. I fully understand they are standing up for trans athletes and want them to be able to compete, but it turns people off when they just accuse anyone who disagrees with them as being transphobic. It would serve them far better to say we are disappointed with FINA’s decision not to allow trans athletes to compete against females but we won’t stop fighting for trans rights or words to that affect. That way they convey their determination to help trans women but they don’t alienate non-trans people.

One thing I do find strange is that some circles have relegated biological women to “womb carriers” and “birthing people”. I’ve got no issue with calling a trans woman a woman, but let’s not assign derogatory terms like the above to pregnant women. Seems totally backwards to me, even if it is said with good intentions.
 
Jurgen the German said:
Sign of the times we live in I guess.

On the subject of trans women/people as a whole, I do think most people support their rights to exist and not be harassed, to compete in sport etc. But we should also bare in mind that a lot of these changes are very new. It took time for everyone to get on board with gay rights (especially older generations), there will always be idiots who want to indulge their prejudices, but i overall I think we have won that battle. Just look at how many major companies celebrate pride month. It will a similar case for trans rights IMO. There’s plenty of debates swirling around trans participation in sport. A lot of the science is in its infancy. I do think the trans lobby and organisations like Stonewall don’t help the situation with some of the rhetoric they come out with. I fully understand they are standing up for trans athletes and want them to be able to compete, but it turns people off when they just accuse anyone who disagrees with them as being transphobic. It would serve them far better to say we are disappointed with FINA’s decision not to allow trans athletes to compete against females but we won’t stop fighting for trans rights or words to that affect. That way they convey their determination to help trans women but they don’t alienate non-trans people.

One thing I do find strange is that some circles have relegated biological women to “womb carriers” and “birthing people”. I’ve got no issue with calling a trans woman a woman, but let’s not assign derogatory terms like the above to pregnant women. Seems totally backwards to me, even if it is said with good intentions.
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Still some way to go on gay rights imo, but moving in the right direction and that's good to see. That's mostly talking about "Western" countries mind, globally there's a very long way to go.

Every social justice issue there's been criticism of progressives for not using the right language, going to far etc. I get it and sometimes agree with the criticism. I care a lot more about those working actively for reactionary, regressive or outright bigoted policies than some activists going too far.

I don't think the language you mention towards the end is intended to be derogatory. I think it's intended to be inclusive and descriptive. If talking about menstruation using the term "people who menstruate" is more inclusive and more accurately descriptive than "women". But I don't personally see it as a big important issue.

I've very rarely come across a use of those kind of terms I've reacted negatively to. But it probably happens. Unfortunately there's bigotry, bias and nonsense from some people in all groups. Again I care a lot less about that than someone like Rogan more or less shouting "it's a fudging man" about a trans woman.
 
braineclipse said:
Still some way to go on gay rights imo, but moving in the right direction and that's good to see. That's mostly talking about "Western" countries mind, globally there's a very long way to go.

Every social justice issue there's been criticism of progressives for not using the right language, going to far etc. I get it and sometimes agree with the criticism. I care a lot more about those working actively for reactionary, regressive or outright bigoted policies than some activists going too far.

I don't think the language you mention towards the end is intended to be derogatory. I think it's intended to be inclusive and descriptive. If talking about menstruation using the term "people who menstruate" is more inclusive and more accurately descriptive than "women". But I don't personally see it as a big important issue.

I've very rarely come across a use of those kind of terms I've reacted negatively to. But it probably happens. Unfortunately there's bigotry, bias and nonsense from some people in all groups. Again I care a lot less about that than someone like Rogan more or less shouting "it's a fudging man" about a trans woman.
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What rights in the uk do hetrosexuals have that homosexuals don't?
 
braineclipse said:
Still some way to go on gay rights imo, but moving in the right direction and that's good to see. That's mostly talking about "Western" countries mind, globally there's a very long way to go.

Every social justice issue there's been criticism of progressives for not using the right language, going to far etc. I get it and sometimes agree with the criticism. I care a lot more about those working actively for reactionary, regressive or outright bigoted policies than some activists going too far.

I don't think the language you mention towards the end is intended to be derogatory. I think it's intended to be inclusive and descriptive. If talking about menstruation using the term "people who menstruate" is more inclusive and more accurately descriptive than "women". But I don't personally see it as a big important issue.

I've very rarely come across a use of those kind of terms I've reacted negatively to. But it probably happens. Unfortunately there's bigotry, bias and nonsense from some people in all groups. Again I care a lot less about that than someone like Rogan more or less shouting "it's a fudging man" about a trans woman.
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I don’t think you ever get rid of every racist or bigot in the world. There are some everywhere and always will be sadly. Just like crime will always exist. But things are undeniably better, being gay was a crime in the last century, now gay marriage is the law of the land. Fully agree the rest of the world needs to catch up though, starting with the Middle East where they have some barbaric laws in place towards gays and women.

People who menstruate may sound more inclusive but if trans women are women then let’s call actual biological women “women” as well. I also think it’s wrong that female athletes feel they have to self-censor about trans being in sports through fear of backlash or being called a bigot.

I do also agree a lot of the stuff on the right is far worse than what’s going on the left. I don’t lose perspective. I have followed what’s been happening in the states regarding abortion laws and think it’s wrong like most people. I just want the left to be better and to stop alienating people and get back into power.
 
Jurgen the German said:
I don’t think you ever get rid of every racist or bigot in the world. There are some everywhere and always will be sadly. Just like crime will always exist. But things are undeniably better, being gay was a crime in the last century, now gay marriage is the law of the land. Fully agree the rest of the world needs to catch up though, starting with the Middle East where they have some barbaric laws in place towards gays and women.

People who menstruate may sound more inclusive but if trans women are women then let’s call actual biological women “women” as well. I also think it’s wrong that female athletes feel they have to self-censor about trans being in sports through fear of backlash or being called a bigot.

I do also agree a lot of the stuff on the right is far worse than what’s going on the left. I don’t lose perspective. I have followed what’s been happening in the states regarding abortion laws and think it’s wrong like most people. I just want the left to be better and to stop alienating people and get back into power.
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I agree that it will probably always exist, to some extent. But I still think there's positive movement to be made that's very much possible and even though it's partly a generational thing where it's a question of time it's not only that.

Just like there will always be racists and bigots there will always be activists that take things too far (though we probably disagree on what is too far). I do wish "the left" could be more unified and strategic, but at the same time there's a lot of varied views on the left so that's not happening any time soon.

To me it's partly a question of priorities and when I see someone like Peterson spend a lot of time attacking the left, while skirting around issues on the right, Trump and Trumpism I question both his motives and the effect of what he does. I think he does more to help the right than the left. He's smart enough to realise that, but keeps doing it.

He "warned" us about how the "postmodern neo marxists" (whoever and whatever they actually are) and how they would bring us to the gulags. Yet to see any evidence of that. Evidence of what the current right wing brings is clear as day. I question his priorities.

I think very few leftist activists have issues with calling women women. What I've seen is some asking for, or using, a more inclusive language when talking about specific things. Like "people who menstruate" instead of "women" when talking about menstruation. Because not all women menstruate, some people who menstruate are men (gender), some people who menstruate are non binary.

I think that's a fairly reasonable thing to ask for, but I'm somewhat unconvinced personally about the importance of it.

If I was a person that menstruated that didn't identify as a woman I may have felt differently about the importance of that issue though.
 
braineclipse said:
I agree that it will probably always exist, to some extent. But I still think there's positive movement to be made that's very much possible and even though it's partly a generational thing where it's a question of time it's not only that.

Just like there will always be racists and bigots there will always be activists that take things too far (though we probably disagree on what is too far). I do wish "the left" could be more unified and strategic, but at the same time there's a lot of varied views on the left so that's not happening any time soon.

To me it's partly a question of priorities and when I see someone like Peterson spend a lot of time attacking the left, while skirting around issues on the right, Trump and Trumpism I question both his motives and the effect of what he does. I think he does more to help the right than the left. He's smart enough to realise that, but keeps doing it.

He "warned" us about how the "postmodern neo marxists" (whoever and whatever they actually are) and how they would bring us to the gulags. Yet to see any evidence of that. Evidence of what the current right wing brings is clear as day. I question his priorities.

I think very few leftist activists have issues with calling women women. What I've seen is some asking for, or using, a more inclusive language when talking about specific things. Like "people who menstruate" instead of "women" when talking about menstruation. Because not all women menstruate, some people who menstruate are men (gender), some people who menstruate are non binary.

I think that's a fairly reasonable thing to ask for, but I'm somewhat unconvinced personally about the importance of it.

If I was a person that menstruated that didn't identify as a woman I may have felt differently about the importance of that issue though.
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What about women who do menstrate and their right to be called women?
Or women who breast feed not being called mothers but chest feeders?
Not being a woman or a parent i can't say for certain, but i would imagine being denied the opportunity to identify as a mother must be a really upsetting experience for many.
And pardon my ignorance but how can men menstrate?
 
glasgowspur said:
What about women who do menstrate and their right to be called women?
Or women who breast feed not being called mothers but chest feeders?
Not being a woman or a parent i can't say for certain, but i would imagine being denied the opportunity to identify as a mother must be a really upsetting experience for many.
And pardon my ignorance but how can men menstrate?
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Who are these people who are saying that those women can't identify as, or can't be called, women?

This may be my ignorance, but I've literally never heard or been exposed to that argument. Who are the people, with influence or power, who are making these arguments? Give me any example of that and chances are I'll disagree with what they're saying I think.

Some people are asking for specific, gender neutral language when talking about specific issues. I'm fine with that, I think it makes sense, but I also don't think it's a very important issue right now. How they choose to use their words is up to them of course, I think it's fine that they put their point across about how they want others to use language.

Some trans men menstruate. Depends on how much transition stuff they've chosen or been able to go through. They will identify as men. Their gender is then imo male. I think and talk about them as men. Thus, some men menstruate.
 
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