Ingerlund

[milo]

Re: England's last world cup game for 12 years!!!!!

I don't rate him at all. I fail to see what he's good at apart from running around a lot, he offers almost zero goal threat.

I think that it is his athleticism and closing down from the front that are getting him selected. I agree that he is not the easiest on the eye but I think that he is effective.

 

[SoundAndVision]

Re: England's last world cup game for 12 years!!!!!

I don't rate him at all. I fail to see what he's good at apart from running around a lot, he offers almost zero goal threat.

he works hard and plays for Man United, thats the only reason he gets anywhere near the team.
There's alot wrong with the coaching in this country but all i ask for as a minimum requirement is we get a coach who will have the balls to pick the correct players to create a team and not just individuals who happen to play for the big clubs.
Talking of our coaches, how many do we have at the world cup? just Hodgson........... How many do we have that manage decent size teams abroad? That tells you all you need to know about the level of coaching in England.

 

[Superted]

Re: England's last world cup game for 12 years!!!!!

We had Stan Collymore being interviewed on SBS, which is the channel showing the World Cup over here. He spoke brilliantly about the problems English football are having. To summarise what he said:

1. It's the bureaucracy of the FA. Old heads with old solutions to new problems. They had a review into the structure of football and the best they could come up with was B teams for EPL clubs

2. Apparantly Stuart Pearce has said the young ones that turn up for his youth teams don't care. There's no passion for the youth team and therefore that doesn't translate to the national team. Consider the Dutch and Germans where a nucleus have played together as a national team since teenagers. He suggested guys like Sterling, Shaw, etc all need to play at the youth tournaments not this whole David Bentley attitude of being too good for it.

3. Team over individuals. Rooney not even in Zlatan, Van Persie's class, let alone Messi, Ronaldo. If the team isn't better with him in it, he shouldn't play. Similar Gerard, too old, has played his last international.

4. Your best 19 year olds will become better players playing all over Europe and around the world. This links up with point 3. Imagine if Wheelchair, Shaw, Ox, Sterling, etc had all travelled as a group to tournaments in South America, Asia, Australia. You'd have a much better team.

He's passionate and spoke a lot of sense.

Some discussion on it here:
http://au.fourfourtwo.com/forums/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1994760

 

[Jurgen the German]

Re: England's last world cup game for 12 years!!!!!

he works hard and plays for Man United, thats the only reason he gets anywhere near the team.
There's alot wrong with the coaching in this country but all i ask for as a minimum requirement is we get a coach who will have the balls to pick the correct players to create a team and not just individuals who happen to play for the big clubs.
Talking of our coaches, how many do we have at the world cup? just Hodgson........... How many do we have that manage decent size teams abroad? That tells you all you need to know about the level of coaching in England.

Some very astute points in this post. Whilst I agree the level of coaching is shocking (even Spain and Holland have about 10 times as many qualifiied coaches as we do) the players simply are not good enough. A 35 year old Pirlo (albeit still a class 35 year old) and Luis Suarez at 75% fitness is better than anything we have.

The biggest problem is at grass roots level, until youngsters are taught to keep the ball and not lump it 50 yards, we will not improve. It's been the same issue at every tournament I can remember, not being able to keep the ball.

 

[Cochise]

Re: England's last world cup game for 12 years!!!!!

I felt that part of the problem for England was the lack of a game plan, or more over the wrong type of plan. We seem to have players who like to run with the ball and not enough incisive passers, which looked like it took its toll in the heat of Brazil. We looked tired and out of ideas way before the 90 mins were up.

I echo some of the other posters thoughts. In two years time this crop of young players may start to look good, but I think Hodgson needs to decide on this young core now. That for me means a proper midfield three, not a midfield that contains an aging Gerrard and Rooney who actually plays like a second striker at times and a set pattern of play with players who fit roles, not big names crow barred in to fill positions.

 

[Mr_B]

Re: England's last world cup game for 12 years!!!!!

belgium were in a similar mess 12 years ago, they completely revamped how kids are coached, and it needs time and luck but look at where they are now and they have a 1/5 the population of england

but u also need to get rid of "dinosaurs" like howard wilkinson, trevor brooking etc who stay on the FA gravy train and pick up fat paychecks but contribute nothing.

 

[monkeybarry]

Re: England's last world cup game for 12 years!!!!!

This is the world cup, the best of the best
The bottom line is, we have zero world class players and zero in the group just under world class.

The only you win without those players is to out tactic every opposition ( Greece in the euros) and be very lucky.

The possession thing is weird. Our players do it at club level

 

[Gilzeantoscore]

Re: England's last world cup game for 12 years!!!!!

I thought for the most part this side did better at retaining possession than past England teams.

 

[Baleforce]

Re: England's last world cup game for 12 years!!!!!

I thought for the most part this side did better at retaining possession than past England teams.

I'd say much better, we actually had the ball at the end of a game for a change.

 

[Seedy Ron]

Re: England's last world cup game for 12 years!!!!!

This is the world cup, the best of the best
The bottom line is, we have zero world class players and zero in the group just under world class.

The only you win without those players is to out tactic every opposition ( Greece in the euros) and be very lucky.

The possession thing is weird. Our players do it at club level

You maybe don't win the thing without a top notch individual or two, but there's a difference between not winning the thing, and not getting a ****ing point. Costa Rica have played the same two games as us, and have 6 points and are in the next round. I doubt very much they have much of a youth setup (apologies if they do), and they certainly haven't got any top drawer players. Good players, well orgnanised and willing to work at it will get you a very long way, IMO.

I think we overplay this "our players are **** and can only play hoof ball", they're not technically that bad. They're either not being told to play the required way, or they're not willing to do it.

 

[braineclipse]

Re: England's last world cup game for 12 years!!!!!

You maybe don't win the thing without a top notch individual or two, but there's a difference between not winning the thing, and not getting a ****ing point. Costa Rica have played the same two games as us, and have 6 points and are in the next round. I doubt very much they have much of a youth setup (apologies if they do), and they certainly haven't got any top drawer players. Good players, well orgnanised and willing to work at it will get you a very long way, IMO.

I think we overplay this "our players are **** and can only play hoof ball", they're not technically that bad. They're either not being told to play the required way, or they're not willing to do it.

You essentially support one team that could do quite well if things go their way. There's another 20+ teams like that in the tournament, most have (at least some) good players, most are well organized, most are willing to work hard. Like England. Some of them will do well, some of them will do poorly.

"They're either not being told to play the required way, or they're not willing to do it" is a false dichotomy. The more likely explanation to me is that in a game with a lot of coincidences and teams that are fairly evenly matched some teams win and some teams lose. This will be the case if all teams are being told to play the required way and be willing to do it and if that only applies to most teams.

 

[El Guepardo]

Re: England's last world cup game for 12 years!!!!!

I'd have Tony Pulis as England manager. He performed miracles with Crystal Palace last season, was excellent at the helm of Stoke, and is likely the best English manager at the moment.

True, his style of play doesn't always excite but if we are talking getting results, and not revelling in good, but unproductive, football, then Pulis is definitely the man to take England forward.

 

[Seedy Ron]

Re: England's last world cup game for 12 years!!!!!

Erm, he's Welsh.

 

[Seedy Ron]

Re: England's last world cup game for 12 years!!!!!

You essentially support one team that could do quite well if things go their way. There's another 20+ teams like that in the tournament, most have (at least some) good players, most are well organized, most are willing to work hard. Like England. Some of them will do well, some of them will do poorly.

"They're either not being told to play the required way, or they're not willing to do it" is a false dichotomy. The more likely explanation to me is that in a game with a lot of coincidences and teams that are fairly evenly matched some teams win and some teams lose. This will be the case if all teams are being told to play the required way and be willing to do it and if that only applies to most teams.

In the group D thread you listed a load of "ifs" that might've changed it for England (if someone picks up Mario, stops the cross, doesn't flick it on to his BFF, if Rooney doesn't fluff his lines at every available opportunity etc), but surely these are things that shouldn't be happening, based on the coaching of the players, or how they implement the coaching during the game? Teams with a lower quality of player don't make these mistakes, they're not moments of chance where it can go either way, they're errors (some overpaid **** has switched off mostly).

 

[braineclipse]

Re: England's last world cup game for 12 years!!!!!

In the group D thread you listed a load of "ifs" that might've changed it for England (if someone picks up Mario, stops the cross, doesn't flick it on to his BFF, if Rooney doesn't fluff his lines at every available opportunity etc), but surely these are things that shouldn't be happening, based on the coaching of the players, or how they implement the coaching during the game? Teams with a lower quality of player don't make these mistakes, they're not moments of chance where it can go either way, they're errors (some overpaid **** has switched off mostly).

Mistakes happen, quite frequently. Some are punished, some are not.

I just flat out disagree that these mistakes don't happen with other teams. A couple of quick examples:

Look at the highlights from the England - Urugay match. Sure Rooney missed a great chance, but so did Cavani. Look at the goal Rooney did score, Uruguay were essentially 4-5 players against England's two out on the flank, Johnson had to get more or less past 2-3 of them, and in the centre players didn't track Rooney's run.

Sturrdige's goal against Italy? Clearly poor defending from the Italians...

If it had been an England player pulling down Lugano and giving away a penalty I'm sure the memory of that would be well branded into your mind, helped no doubt by the English media focusing on it. It was a Costa Rica player though, and a pretty bad mistake.

Mistakes can be pointed out in all the goals Costa Rica scored against Urugay. The second one was perhaps the worst one as Costa Rica tried the exact same ball from a similar free kick 5 minutes earlier and almost scored, yet Uruguay weren't capable of doing anything about it. Had that been Hart letting in a goal from that angle for the last goal I think the English media would still be talking about it (perhaps rightly so, distinctly average goalkeeping at best).

 

[milo]

Re: England's last world cup game for 12 years!!!!!

Mistakes happen, quite frequently. Some are punished, some are not.

I just flat out disagree that these mistakes don't happen with other teams. A couple of quick examples:

Look at the highlights from the England - Urugay match. Sure Rooney missed a great chance, but so did Cavani. Look at the goal Rooney did score, Uruguay were essentially 4-5 players against England's two out on the flank, Johnson had to get more or less past 2-3 of them, and in the centre players didn't track Rooney's run.

Sturrdige's goal against Italy? Clearly poor defending from the Italians...

If it had been an England player pulling down Lugano and giving away a penalty I'm sure the memory of that would be well branded into your mind, helped no doubt by the English media focusing on it. It was a Costa Rica player though, and a pretty bad mistake.

Mistakes can be pointed out in all the goals Costa Rica scored against Urugay. The second one was perhaps the worst one as Costa Rica tried the exact same ball from a similar free kick 5 minutes earlier and almost scored, yet Uruguay weren't capable of doing anything about it. Had that been Hart letting in a goal from that angle for the last goal I think the English media would still be talking about it (perhaps rightly so, distinctly average goalkeeping at best).

I agree. As good as Uruguay were against England, the difference between the teams was a misplaced header from Gerrard and a missed header by Rooney.

 

[El Guepardo]

Re: England's last world cup game for 12 years!!!!!

Erm, he's Welsh.

He is?

:lol:

 

[Papercut]

Re: England's last world cup game for 12 years!!!!!

A lot of people focus on the number of foreigners in our league and pinpoint that as the reason for a lack for international success.

That IMO may be a factor but there are many factors and let's face it - foreign players are a big factor in most countries; England IMO is quite unique to many of the other countries...

The British Empire - England's cricket team benefits more than it's footie team does predominately because the population with Caribbean and South Asian heritage are big-time on the sport, much more so than they are at footie. Spain and Portugal have an advantage here... On a tangent, can we take advantage of immigration in the future with people from footie nations such as Poland, Romania, Bulgaria, etc (much like it seems Germany, Switzerland, Netherlands, France, etc)?

Grassroots Football - The ethos in the past has been to 'get it out!' rather than emphasis on technical footie. This is a personal observation playing in London based 'English' leagues and other 'Mediterranean' leagues. Taking on players was encouraged in the latter whereas you'd get big Les shouting at you for keeping the ball (admittedly my experiences were 15-20 odd years ago so I'm sure it's changed now).

Good Loser Another thing we're particularly good at. It's all about taking part - this philosophy is bred from a young age. I think this does have it's merits for young children but it seems to filter through into adulthood too. It is actually commendable to be a good loser but it may take away the bite of being successful.

DO YOU SPEAK ENGLISH!?!?! Why are these players not getting international experience??? We know the EPL is fantastic but learn from different cultures and leagues! I cannot think of another big footie nation's players having less air-miles!! German, Spanish, Italian, Brazilian, Argentinian, Portuguese, France, Belgian... They all travel!!! Is it because of the language? Do our players struggle with their own that they are afraid to learn another???

Other Sports Perhaps footie isn't as big as we think it is? We don't have the biggest population and perhaps other sports get equal amount of interest AND/OR do not follow the above issues?

There may also be cultural elements (education, class, family, etc) but as mentioned - I do think we have an unrealistic expectation - particularly due to the focus and money of the EPL...

Just back from holiday and knackered - apologies for the mumbling...

 

[Jurgen the German]

Re: England's last world cup game for 12 years!!!!!

A lot of people focus on the number of foreigners in our league and pinpoint that as the reason for a lack for international success.

That IMO may be a factor but there are many factors and let's face it - foreign players are a big factor in most countries; England IMO is quite unique to many of the other countries...

The British Empire - England's cricket team benefits more than it's footie team does predominately because the population with Caribbean and South Asian heritage are big-time on the sport, much more so than they are at footie. Spain and Portugal have an advantage here... On a tangent, can we take advantage of immigration in the future with people from footie nations such as Poland, Romania, Bulgaria, etc (much like it seems Germany, Switzerland, Netherlands, France, etc)?

Grassroots Football - The ethos in the past has been to 'get it out!' rather than emphasis on technical footie. This is a personal observation playing in London based 'English' leagues and other 'Mediterranean' leagues. Taking on players was encouraged in the latter whereas you'd get big Les shouting at you for keeping the ball (admittedly my experiences were 15-20 odd years ago so I'm sure it's changed now).

Good Loser Another thing we're particularly good at. It's all about taking part - this philosophy is bred from a young age. I think this does have it's merits for young children but it seems to filter through into adulthood too. It is actually commendable to be a good loser but it may take away the bite of being successful.

DO YOU SPEAK ENGLISH!?!?! Why are these players not getting international experience??? We know the EPL is fantastic but learn from different cultures and leagues! I cannot think of another big footie nation's players having less air-miles!! German, Spanish, Italian, Brazilian, Argentinian, Portuguese, France, Belgian... They all travel!!! Is it because of the language? Do our players struggle with their own that they are afraid to learn another???

Other Sports Perhaps footie isn't as big as we think it is? We don't have the biggest population and perhaps other sports get equal amount of interest AND/OR do not follow the above issues?

There may also be cultural elements (education, class, family, etc) but as mentioned - I do think we have an unrealistic expectation - particularly due to the focus and money of the EPL...

Just back from holiday and knackered - apologies for the mumbling...

I'll tackle this one, because we have the arrogant belief that our league is the best league in the world so why should they travel, it's ********. Spain had won the Europa League and had 2 teams in the CL final, but the premier league is the best still because everyone says so.

 

[Jordinho]

Re: England's last world cup game for 12 years!!!!!

I'll tackle this one, because we have the arrogant belief that our league is the best league in the world so why should they travel, it's ********. Spain had won the Europa League and had 2 teams in the CL final, but the premier league is the best still because everyone says so.

I think it has a lot to do with earning ridiculous sums playing for **** teams. Why not try a slightly a lesser league and play for a good team?

Not having your equally braindead mates around all the time.

Learning a new language.