AVB & Spurs Tactics and Formations discussion thread

[Golfball]

Nobody is happy with a loss. However some of us are happy with the performance. You can play well without winning, the season is 38 games long and your reading far far too much into one match.


Edit: You seem irritated that this place seems to have become a little less 'knee-jerk' and a little more 'long term'.. That is hardly a bad move.

Jimmy - if you want to challenge my posts make comments like the one in bold rather than tell me not to mention Harry. It's a good comment and one I'm glad you made, but to explain...

I'm irritated that people who were critical and unfair on Harry (right from day 1) have actually gone the complete opposite for AVB and turned a negative performance into a good one. I know there were some losers who just never like Harry, but I genuinely thought that some people were critical of Harry for the right reasons. So naturally I would expect these people to come along and apply the same logic to AVB but they have done the opposite.

I dont see why disliking Harry automatically means you have to support AVB even when it goes wrong. As I've said, my comments are all about first impressions and I dont think it means we are going to get relegated... but when a group of people on this forum bang on literally every day for 3 years about us having higher expectations and a winning mentality... and then suddenly become realistic when AVB takes over, I sort of think why didn't you do that under Harry - you might have liked him had you done so.

And bring Harry into the debate is perfectly relevant, it will be debated throughout the season because you sack a manager who gets you 4th means you want that decision justified, we cant justify it in pre-season so its not like the debate could be put to bed a few weeks ago.

And the comments to people in this thread, its more of a final reminder about what they said under Harry, letting them know they had a chance to be consistent but didnt do it. I don't understand why you apply a different set of rules to different managers. I thought Harry was an excellent manager for us. I'll use the same set of rules to judge AVB and I hope to say he is excellent.

 

[Golfball]

Ah, right......so that's you not being angry. Gotcha.

Of course there's nothing to stop you from mentioning Harry in every post; jutting out your lower lip and complaining that people aren't treating AVB in the same way that they treated Harry; pouncing on every little inconsistency that you detect in the anti Harry or pro AVB camp; grasping hold of every little flaw in AVB's performance and treating it as a stick with which to beat those you accuse of being inconsistent. Certainly, I'm not stopping you.

I just think that it would be better if you didn't do all those things and was hoping that, in a calmer, more considered moment, you might come to the same conclusion.

Because I'd rather concentrate on the here and now and the soon to come rather than forever fighting yesterday's battles.

Right so I make a few posts in one thread and I've been pouncing on every little (err you mean BIG ?) inconsistency have I ? So sorry if a few posts for 1 day upset you, maybe you should police the people who bang on about the same brick every day on here ?

But its a big forum and its a VERY relevant discussion to have with these people. Im guessing you are happy is Harry is gone and just want to sweep it under the carpet and hope we all forget about it should it all go wrong. Sure, I can understand why the anti Harry lot would rather I be quiet. They would much rather it doesnt get mentioned than have to listen to the people bang on about what a mistake it was sacking someone they disliked so much. In fact, maybe these people are scared that at some point in the future they are going to have to admit that Harry should never have gone and they were wrong about it.

Its a Spurs forum. You are deluded if you think people arent going to discuss big decisions in our history. Now I suggest you be quiet and repost your thoughts to me in a few months should I do this every day, then you might have a bit of a point.

Oh and as for the anti Harry / pro AVB camp - are you saying there isnt one ? it's the same people in both btw. I dont understand why people cant be pro harry and pro avb, or anti harry and anti avb - if you were anti Harry it makes far more sense you'd be anti AVB given what we know about the guy.

 

[Golfball]

I've been told by plenty of people in this thread that we have previously lacked a winning mentality and that performances last season were bad.

Therefore, why on earth is anyone upset with me for not being happy with a loss away to a team who cant be considered a top one. Why if I've been told performances in games we lost last season were bad (I personally thought we lost some games we were great in last season), can I not use that criteria to make the conclusion that yesterdays performance was bad ?

This is your rules guys, not mine. Which performances were worse than that last season ? (im not saying there werent any, but I'd be interested to see where you guys think it ranks). Currently I'm thinking that would be in our bottom 20% of last seasons performances.

 

[thfcsteff]

this pressing brick is always going to tire the players out because when we win the ball we dont keep it and in effect take a rest. It will be a common theme under AVB, dont expect any different

The key will be keeping possession. When we maintain possession (which will happen more easily when we sign another striker and play Modders/his replacement) then pressing will occur far less. Barca are like dogs of war when they don't have the ball and press so hard they nearly flatten their oppo; of course, they don't have to press much because they usually control the match. I believe it is THIS which is AVB's aim, andI believe he will achieve it when he has his squad settled.

 

[africanspurs]

Gotta say, golfball has more than a point or two

and if people are going to have a go at how the team was in years prior to this one, how is that NOT about harry, in which case at some point harry could come into the discussion

 

[thfcsteff]

Stick to your strengths. All he needs to improve on, IMO, is to use his right foot.

I think the key is that he should move inside WHEN it's the right moment, and when there are enough players around him willing to exploit the spaces his movement can create. I actually like him checking inside every so often, it creates space and confusion, but absolutely, the majority of his time should be on the left. But knowing when to switch around is part of football maturity...I agree, if he worked a little more on his right peg he'd be 110% unplayable...

 

[thfcsteff]

Shut up. The post is clear. The Harry comments are clear and relevance to the comments Im replying to is clear. It's certainly not angry - im just stating an opinion which I believe is the point of this forum.

Yes he's gone, but there is no reason why I cant mention him in every post if I want to. Im not discussing his sacking. He was the previous manager who was sacked in favour of this one. If I see someone say something about Harry or about his performances, and then see the same person say the opposite for a new manager, its a perfectly rational thought to question why they have done that (not that I dont know the answer).

So instead of telling me who I cant mention, put up an opinion or jog on.

Please try and keep it civil mate, no need for that...there's a reason the questions was asked, and the reason is because said-topic appears to be incendiary to the point of causing "wars' here. I agree in a sense, it's a shame we cannot discuss him without things getting so extreme, but sadly it appears that is the case. I think THAT'S why Jimmy asked, indeed, I had pondered your reasons until I saw you'd addressed them (and thus deleted my initial post)...I'm all for a whole separate "Past managers" thread, so long as it can remain civil (note, NOT weak or one-sided, fierce debate can be respectful)...thoughts everyone?

 

[thfcsteff]

Gotta say, golfball has more than a point or two

and if people are going to have a go at how the team was in years prior to this one, how is that NOT about harry, in which case at some point harry could come into the discussion

Interested in your opinion mate, do you think it would be a good idea to just start a fresh thread titled PAST MANAGERS where discussions about Harry, Ramos, Jol, etc can be exchanged between those who want to exchange them? Do you think it would be possible for everyone to remain civil yet strong in the debate (respectful?)...I genuinely think it might be the answer to what seems to be happening now. Thoughts?

 

[jimmyb]

Right so I make a few posts in one thread and I've been pouncing on every little (err you mean BIG ?) inconsistency have I ? So sorry if a few posts for 1 day upset you, maybe you should police the people who bang on about the same brick every day on here ?

But its a big forum and its a VERY relevant discussion to have with these people. Im guessing you are happy is Harry is gone and just want to sweep it under the carpet and hope we all forget about it should it all go wrong. Sure, I can understand why the anti Harry lot would rather I be quiet. They would much rather it doesnt get mentioned than have to listen to the people bang on about what a mistake it was sacking someone they disliked so much. In fact, maybe these people are scared that at some point in the future they are going to have to admit that Harry should never have gone and they were wrong about it.

Its a Spurs forum. You are deluded if you think people arent going to discuss big decisions in our history. Now I suggest you be quiet and repost your thoughts to me in a few months should I do this every day, then you might have a bit of a point.

Oh and as for the anti Harry / pro AVB camp - are you saying there isnt one ? it's the same people in both btw. I dont understand why people cant be pro harry and pro avb, or anti harry and anti avb - if you were anti Harry it makes far more sense you'd be anti AVB given what we know about the guy.

Err.......re the sections highlighted in bold, you seem to have forgotten what you wrote just a couple of posts earlier:

there is no reason why I cant mention him in every post if I want to

I didn't make any claims as to what you have or haven't done. My post was nothing more than a response to what you implicitly threatened to do.

As to the rest of your post, your assumption is wrong. I am not - nor have a I ever been - a Harry hater. In many respects, I was sorry to see him go. He was the best manager we've had in many, many years. And, overall, I liked him as a person. But that doesn't mean that I can't perfectly understand how and why his behaviour (rather than his ability to manage) might have exasperated Levy and left him with little choice but to sack him.

On the subject of Harry's ability to manage, my impression is that the majority of those who wanted Harry out of the club did so because they intensely disliked him as a person for a variety of reasons (some more justified than others). Most of the others who wanted him out did so either because they saw Harry as something of a footballing dinosaur with little to no grasp of tactics or because of his habit of buying mostly older, Premier League proven players. Whether or not these criticisms were fair is beside the point because your claim is that the Harry haters specifically criticized Harry's teams for lacking a winning mentality. And that doesn't tally with my recollection of events at all. Sure, there might have been a few making such criticisms but they were in a small minority.

And since the behaviour of the "Harry haters" clearly riled you greatly at the time, it's also baffling to me why you should wish to behave in exactly the same manner towards our new manager. You claim that you do so in the interests of consistency but I can assure you that that is not the impression that you are giving.

Finally, re your suggestion that I be quiet and repost my thoughts in a few months, can I suggest the same for you? If AVB's team are still losing games that you think they should win, then you too "might have a bit of a point".

 

[africanspurs]

Interested in your opinion mate, do you think it would be a good idea to just start a fresh thread titled PAST MANAGERS where discussions about Harry, Ramos, Jol, etc can be exchanged between those who want to exchange them? Do you think it would be possible for everyone to remain civil yet strong in the debate (respectful?)...I genuinely think it might be the answer to what seems to be happening now. Thoughts?

options

1. Yes it could work, actually it will but i doubt it would stop harry's name being mentioned because the pendulum swings in both directions. people rag on harry or tottenham past from the last few years (which is harry!!! My GHod how can no one see this) and mods or "anti harry" or tired of it all camp feel the need to police this like a dictatorship...or so it would 'appear'

2. No need to, let a thread run its course, is there a reason why Harry cannot be mentioned in a thread? if its because you dont want to reduce the thread to a point that divides opinion in an aggressive way and a way that turns friends on each other...then do not alienate just one side. slap both of them in the face just to be sure....like in the NBA , give both them mother fudgers a 'T'

3. set up a Harry thread ...again...yes i know its tedious for people that dont like him, had a reason to show favour in him leaving or for those of us that have a reason to argue against them , or for those that did like him etc etc...but there is clearly something boiling over , thats unresolved that isnt being let to run its course to the end. I dont know what people think would happen when you instill a strict rule of "no harry...ANYWHERE"...
cause lets face , the threads for harry get locked or deleted or whatever or mods say / said "no more Harry threads", .....
harry gets slapped in the face time and time agains here ...nothing , people respond ? and its "shut up, why is harry being mentioned?"....
people just bring up harry for whatever selfish reason and still get it in the neck....

there is clearly a problem here and much like the wire.......shift it into an area where specifically that one point can be butchered, abused and slashed to bits freely without people taking it "too personally" in level ie. people really cussing each other out, being abusive, bullying, dictating every

This is why i think your initial solution would definitely work but wouldnt stop people from bringing it up because its politically correctly shrouding the problem in another name. If you just call a spade a spade it'll attract people that like spades quicker..then just lock them in there to get it out of their system. Then anywhere you catch things going to far into the "i am with harry and you anti harry people need to be hanged" or "i had my own reasons not to like harry and you pro harry people will get torched you keeping mouthing off"...then do what you guys have the power to do...cut that thread and force stick it in the thread where harry gets discussed and annihilated

then there is the banning stick....not a good idea

All tough choices that i am very glad isnt down to me to deploy / enforce in order to keep the peace in what is clearly dividing friends for whatever reason on the best Tottenham site on the net

i would welcome your first option though. it is a good idea from someone thats clearly looking to instill peace without actually insinuating that there is a particular issue that anyone need be self conscious about

 

[braineclipse]

It doesnt matter. This discussion is about Spurs performance. Theres a difference between putting in a good performance and being better than your opponents.

But i'll answer your question, thought we started quite well and controlled it with neither team looking overly threatening. It then started to level out and finally swung in their favour - not that they were anything special at all, but we finished the game looking unmotivated and out of ideas. Not really the best thing to see on the opening day of the season.

And some of the comments in here, unbelievable when you consider what the same people would say about displays under Harry. Yesterday was not a great pressing display, this is something that was excellent under Harry and you wont find an opposition manager say differently. However it would tail off towards the end of the seasons when we were tired. But yesterday was day 1, I thought we faded badly and it led to my first impression - and i'll state again, first impression. If we win the next 5 with good displays, ill be the first on here defending the manager should someone make a stupid post.

I think its fairly obvious the Harry haters dont want to say anything bad about yesterday because they dont want to make it look like we/they were wrong. Its blatantly obvious, and equally pathetic.

The opponent doesn't matter? If we perform better or worse than our opponent in a tough away game against a team that was quite close to a top 4 finish last season doesn't matter?

Do you realize just how condescending and insulting your last sentence is?

 

[thfcsteff]

options

1. Yes it could work, actually it will but i doubt it would stop harry's name being mentioned because the pendulum swings in both directions. people rag on harry or tottenham past from the last few years (which is harry!!! My GHod how can no one see this) and mods or "anti harry" or tired of it all camp feel the need to police this like a dictatorship...or so it would 'appear'

2. No need to, let a thread run its course, is there a reason why Harry cannot be mentioned in a thread? if its because you dont want to reduce the thread to a point that divides opinion in an aggressive way and a way that turns friends on each other...then do not alienate just one side. slap both of them in the face just to be sure....like in the NBA , give both them mother fudgers a 'T'

3. set up a Harry thread ...again...yes i know its tedious for people that dont like him, had a reason to show favour in him leaving or for those of us that have a reason to argue against them , or for those that did like him etc etc...but there is clearly something boiling over , thats unresolved that isnt being let to run its course to the end. I dont know what people think would happen when you instill a strict rule of "no harry...ANYWHERE"...
cause lets face , the threads for harry get locked or deleted or whatever or mods say / said "no more Harry threads", .....
harry gets slapped in the face time and time agains here ...nothing , people respond ? and its "shut up, why is harry being mentioned?"....
people just bring up harry for whatever selfish reason and still get it in the neck....

there is clearly a problem here and much like the wire.......shift it into an area where specifically that one point can be butchered, abused and slashed to bits freely without people taking it "too personally" in level ie. people really cussing each other out, being abusive, bullying, dictating every

This is why i think your initial solution would definitely work but wouldnt stop people from bringing it up because its politically correctly shrouding the problem in another name. If you just call a spade a spade it'll attract people that like spades quicker..then just lock them in there to get it out of their system. Then anywhere you catch things going to far into the "i am with harry and you anti harry people need to be hanged" or "i had my own reasons not to like harry and you pro harry people will get torched you keeping mouthing off"...then do what you guys have the power to do...cut that thread and force stick it in the thread where harry gets discussed and annihilated

then there is the banning stick....not a good idea

All tough choices that i am very glad isnt down to me to deploy / enforce in order to keep the peace in what is clearly dividing friends for whatever reason on the best Tottenham site on the net

i would welcome your first option though. it is a good idea from someone thats clearly looking to instill peace without actually insinuating that there is a particular issue that anyone need be self conscious about

Appreciate the feedback mate, some excellent points and some commons sense there, not to mention clear insight. I just want to see the season progress on these boards/forums in the discursive, passionate and non-personal way we have all exchanged views on various other things in the past. I'll ask others...again, appreciate the response mate. COYS...

 

[jimmyb]

options

1. Yes it could work, actually it will but i doubt it would stop harry's name being mentioned because the pendulum swings in both directions. people rag on harry or tottenham past from the last few years (which is harry!!! My GHod how can no one see this) and mods or "anti harry" or tired of it all camp feel the need to police this like a dictatorship...or so it would 'appear'

2. No need to, let a thread run its course, is there a reason why Harry cannot be mentioned in a thread? if its because you dont want to reduce the thread to a point that divides opinion in an aggressive way and a way that turns friends on each other...then do not alienate just one side. slap both of them in the face just to be sure....like in the NBA , give both them mother fudgers a 'T'

3. set up a Harry thread ...again...yes i know its tedious for people that dont like him, had a reason to show favour in him leaving or for those of us that have a reason to argue against them , or for those that did like him etc etc...but there is clearly something boiling over , thats unresolved that isnt being let to run its course to the end. I dont know what people think would happen when you instill a strict rule of "no harry...ANYWHERE"...
cause lets face , the threads for harry get locked or deleted or whatever or mods say / said "no more Harry threads", .....
harry gets slapped in the face time and time agains here ...nothing , people respond ? and its "shut up, why is harry being mentioned?"....
people just bring up harry for whatever selfish reason and still get it in the neck....

there is clearly a problem here and much like the wire.......shift it into an area where specifically that one point can be butchered, abused and slashed to bits freely without people taking it "too personally" in level ie. people really cussing each other out, being abusive, bullying, dictating every

This is why i think your initial solution would definitely work but wouldnt stop people from bringing it up because its politically correctly shrouding the problem in another name. If you just call a spade a spade it'll attract people that like spades quicker..then just lock them in there to get it out of their system. Then anywhere you catch things going to far into the "i am with harry and you anti harry people need to be hanged" or "i had my own reasons not to like harry and you pro harry people will get torched you keeping mouthing off"...then do what you guys have the power to do...cut that thread and force stick it in the thread where harry gets discussed and annihilated

then there is the banning stick....not a good idea

All tough choices that i am very glad isnt down to me to deploy / enforce in order to keep the peace in what is clearly dividing friends for whatever reason on the best Tottenham site on the net

i would welcome your first option though. it is a good idea from someone thats clearly looking to instill peace without actually insinuating that there is a particular issue that anyone need be self conscious about

Wow.......stream of consciousness, there, african!

You didn't proof read it, though, did you? I think I only understood two thirds of it!

 

[africanspurs]

I didn't make any claims as to what you have or haven't done. My post was nothing more than a response to what you implicitly threatened to do.

he didn't threaten to do anything though...he just wants the choice or freedom to do it without being reduced to just one quality as a person in a thread and then being crashed about for not being allowed to say anything

As to the rest of your post, your assumption is wrong. I am not - nor have a I ever been - a Harry hater. In many respects, I was sorry to see him go. He was the best manager we've had in many, many years. And, overall, I liked him as a person. But that doesn't mean that I can't perfectly understand how and why his behaviour (rather than his ability to manage) might have exasperated Levy and left him with little choice but to sack him.

i can agree with this

On the subject of Harry's ability to manage, my impression is that the majority of those who wanted Harry out of the club did so because they intensely disliked him as a person for a variety of reasons (some more justified than others).

the point in bold is extremely important.....but i think the underlined bit is highly inaccurate from the small sample size of just me's perspective. people wanted him out for the most absurd of reasons that had little to nothing to do with his personality or character. this then moves into the bolded point you made that some more justified than others, from what i can tell..lies , IMO , or misconceptions or short term memory issues or whatever are applied BIG variables when trying to just say "i wanted harry out..just because" this is actually why i really appreciate ' straight talkers'..they just tell you whats on their brain and move on.

Most of the others who wanted him out did so either because they saw Harry as something of a footballing dinosaur with little to no grasp of tactics or because of his habit of buying mostly older, Premier League proven players. Whether or not these criticisms were fair is beside the point because your claim is that the Harry haters specifically criticized Harry's teams for lacking a winning mentality. And that doesn't tally with my recollection of events at all. Sure, there might have been a few making such criticisms but they were in a small minority.

good post IMO , cant really argue with an opinion here cause it looked at both sides

And since the behaviour of the "Harry haters" clearly riled you greatly at the time, it's also baffling to me why you should wish to behave in exactly the same manner towards our new manager. You claim that you do so in the interests of consistency but I can assure you that that is not the impression that you are giving.

this is the weird bit, i TOTALLY agree with you and this is the mature way to treat the new manager and the whole situation in general BUT at the same time i ALSO UNDERSTAND fully why Golfball would do that (yes i am trying to vindicate my own actions in the past). have you never been in a situation where something you liked or wanted was discarded like rubbish without just cause or maybe it was just cause but the public / general opinion that it was removed wasnt...yet the thing that took its place wasnt put under the microscope in the same manner? but was re-polished into something that could have easily been used to described what was there before?
I cant speak for Golfball here but for me, the ONLY or the MAIN reasons i have been sticking knives into AVB is actually because of people that have been giving harry a bad rap....(plus i wasnt allowed to say harry gets a bad rap xcause then "why am i talking about harry). Surely you must have seen this before....in this scenario "Dont shoot the messenger" and AVB is the messenger

Finally, re your suggestion that I be quiet and repost my thoughts in a few months, can I suggest the same for you? If AVB's team are still losing games that you think they should win, then you too "might have a bit of a point".

fair point, and a good one. though i doubt it will happen


overall as always i think your post is spectacular sir

 

[africanspurs]

Wow.......stream of consciousness, there, african!

You didn't proof read it, though, did you? I think I only understood two thirds of it!

LOL :ross:

being convoluted or getting my point across in small bits has always been an issue for me as you well know

 

[thfcsteff]

Getting back to the topic of the thread itself, I think that Ade/ striker aside, the single biggest issue we had on Saturday was the lack of a ball player like Modric. It was a massive loss, and I think we actually over-achieved in this regard without him. VdV tried to be the ball carrier/playmaker when he came on, and true, some of his passing/vision was great, but we need a dynamo like Modric on the ball and looking for it. Frankly, I'd like to see what Carroll can become this season, and even though Moutinho is not Modric, he is a player who likes to dictate the game and the ball. I was pleasantly surprised at how many chances we created on Saturday in all honesty...

 

[elltrev]

Getting back to the topic of the thread itself, I think that Ade/ striker aside, the single biggest issue we had on Saturday was the lack of a ball player like Modric. It was a massive loss, and I think we actually over-achieved in this regard without him. VdV tried to be the ball carrier/playmaker when he came on, and true, some of his passing/vision was great, but we need a dynamo like Modric on the ball and looking for it. Frankly, I'd like to see what Carroll can become this season, and even though Moutinho is not Modric, he is a player who likes to dictate the game and the ball. I was pleasantly surprised at how many chances we created on Saturday in all honesty...

Interesting point regarding Carroll; of course it's natural to tend to overrate our own youth products, but I think that's actually a nice thing - to want to see our homegrown players succeed rather than just bring in a proven foreigner for lots of cash.

Carroll's certainly the type of player we need in central midfield; whether he is good enough to play a part this season I haven't seen enough of him to be sure about. I'd love to see him make some sub appearances in games where we're comfortably winning, or to see him start alongside first team players in easier cup games.

 

[milo]

Stick to your strengths. All he needs to improve on, IMO, is to use his right foot.

If Bale just hugs the left hand touchline he will be easier to defend against than if he mixes it up. In the first half of last season we played some fantastic football where Bale, Lennon and VdV were swapping positions and were very difficult to play against. What he needs to learn is when to do this and when to stick.

 

[africanspurs]

If Bale just hugs the left hand touchline he will be easier to defend against than if he mixes it up. In the first half of last season we played some fantastic football where Bale, Lennon and VdV were swapping positions and were very difficult to play against. What he needs to learn is when to do this and when to stick.

exactly this.

valencia aside i cant think of one single winger in the top teams that doesnt regularly ghost off the wings

 

[jts1882]

Its a question of balance. The need is to keep the defence guessing.

When Bale stays on the left and tries to beat his man on the outside he will win the battle most of the time unless the defender guesses. Cutting inside punishes the preemption and keeps the defender honest. If the defence is handling the wingers then switching gives them something else to handle. I think the wingers should generally start by testing the defence in what they do best, attacking the outside, and then cut in and switch for variety.

This discussion makes me think of Robben. No question he is most effective cutting in and shooting, but in the games I saw him in the CL and Euros the defence just gave him the outside and played narrow. He's lost that element of surprise and has become too predictable against good sides (or Chelsea).