AVB & Spurs Tactics and Formations discussion thread

[metalgear]

its not just about pressing though, its more about ball retention, because once you win the ball you have to keep it. If we lose Modric, we lose a key component in keeping the ball. We have a few explosive players like Bale and Lennon who when they get the ball want to run and do something with it, but even they are not used to simply playing neat easy passes just to work openings, to wait until the right time arrives to make a killer pass etc. It really is a culture thing. Barca and Spain obviously have it, Swansea have built it over time, first with Martinez, then Sousa, and Rodgers took it to another level. They keep the ball for the sake of keeping the ball, tiki taka as its famously known, and being experts at retaining the ball takes a whole amount of pressure off the defence. As Rodgers says, if you have possession of the ball then the opposition have less time and chances to threaten you

AVB is different. He wants the high pressing, then once we get the ball we have to immediately go for the throats of the opposition. Its a riskier game, its rushed, and more prone to mistakes.

about Porto, you cannot underestimate how the presence of goalscoring machines Falcao and Hulk can actually scare the opposition so much that they go into games immediately with the thought they have to be careful and sit back. They are on the back foot even before they start. He hasnt got that luxury at Spurs

i think he's seen that we were pretty toothless during pre season.
and he also knows we don't have options at the moment.
i really wonder what the conversations between him and levy are like these days. can't be easy.

 

[braineclipse]

its not just about pressing though, its more about ball retention, because once you win the ball you have to keep it. If we lose Modric, we lose a key component in keeping the ball. We have a few explosive players like Bale and Lennon who when they get the ball want to run and do something with it, but even they are not used to simply playing neat easy passes just to work openings, to wait until the right time arrives to make a killer pass etc. It really is a culture thing. Barca and Spain obviously have it, Swansea have built it over time, first with Martinez, then Sousa, and Rodgers took it to another level. They keep the ball for the sake of keeping the ball, tiki taka as its famously known, and being experts at retaining the ball takes a whole amount of pressure off the defence. As Rodgers says, if you have possession of the ball then the opposition have less time and chances to threaten you

AVB is different. He wants the high pressing, then once we get the ball we have to immediately go for the throats of the opposition. Its a riskier game, its rushed, and more prone to mistakes.

about Porto, you cannot underestimate how the presence of goalscoring machines Falcao and Hulk can actually scare the opposition so much that they go into games immediately with the thought they have to be careful and sit back. They are on the back foot even before they start. He hasnt got that luxury at Spurs

Ball retention is one thing, but possession just for the sake of possession is pretty much useless.

There are of course times when just keeping the ball is good, when you have the lead (or a good draw) then just keeping the ball is fine. Or if you're capable of moving the ball around quickly enough to really tire the opponents with plenty of time left, that's also fine. What we saw against Valencia and what we saw at times last season though, where the ball is kept at the back and with the defensive/central midfielders and just passed around without the opponents really putting us under any pressure when behind is useless.

We need players that turn that possession into situations where players like Lennon, Bale, Sigurdsson and VdV can do their thing in the final third. It's just too much to ask to have Bale pick the ball up at the halfway line and then beat 2-3 players to get into a crossing position. That's where Modric was outstanding last season and where Hudd is good as well. It's also where Parker, Sandro, Jenas and Livermore are all average at best.

 

[elltrev]

I think our high line will cost us games this season. AVB knows he must perform though which I keep reminding myself.

I've now watched the full game on ESPN, and the trouble is that it wasn't just the high line that was looking dodgy! There was also far too much space in between our players, which is pretty concerning given that the point of playing a high line is to constrict the space that the opposition can play in. At the moment our defenders, midfielders and forwards aren't sufficiently on the same page it seems ... you have to push up or drop back as a team, otherwise you'll become stretched and there will be huge gaps for the opposition to exploit ... at times our forwards would press their defenders around their penalty box from their goal kick, but our defensive line was not even close to the half-way line, leaving loads of space in between for their players to pop up in and receive the ball.

Also I feel like we're not aggressive enough in the pressing itself ... it looked like we would push up and get within a few yards of them, but then not actually harass them on the ball ... we'll get picked apart if that continues.

I think that the latter problem might be less of an issue once the season starts, because the players will have more intensity. But I worry that the first problem is going to take a long time to get sorted, as the players come to terms with a significantly different approach. If that is the case, I hope the fans (and the Chairman) are patient with Villas-Boas and the team, given that so many people wanted a more clearcut tactical system to take us to the next level. If you want a disciplined system like that, then you have to accept that it's going to take some time to master.

 

[elltrev]

Ball retention is one thing, but possession just for the sake of possession is pretty much useless.

There are of course times when just keeping the ball is good, when you have the lead (or a good draw) then just keeping the ball is fine. Or if you're capable of moving the ball around quickly enough to really tire the opponents with plenty of time left, that's also fine. What we saw against Valencia and what we saw at times last season though, where the ball is kept at the back and with the defensive/central midfielders and just passed around without the opponents really putting us under any pressure when behind is useless.

We need players that turn that possession into situations where players like Lennon, Bale, Sigurdsson and VdV can do their thing in the final third. It's just too much to ask to have Bale pick the ball up at the halfway line and then beat 2-3 players to get into a crossing position. That's where Modric was outstanding last season and where Hudd is good as well. It's also where Parker, Sandro, Jenas and Livermore are all average at best.

Good post, and I agree for the most part. However, I would say that if you want to play an aggressive, high-tempo pressing game, then possession just for the sake of possession is partly necessary ... you need to dominate possession so that you don't have to press too often ... if the possession is around 50-50 then I don't think any team has the energy to press the opposition constantly ... whereas if you have 65% of the possession, even if that includes possession where you're not really going anywhere, you won't have to press as often and so will be more able to maintain high energy levels whilst doing it.

I'm sure I've heard Barcelona or Spanish coaches saying that they often rest when in possession. Of course you don't want to do that all the time, but I guess it's better to have 15% 'resting' possession and 50% possession 'with intent' than to have only the latter. You still have just as much possession 'with intent', but the opposition has less possession and so (all things being equal) less opportunities to score.

 

[braineclipse]

I've now watched the full game on ESPN, and the trouble is that it wasn't just the high line that was looking dodgy! There was also far too much space in between our players, which is pretty concerning given that the point of playing a high line is to constrict the space that the opposition can play in. At the moment our defenders, midfielders and forwards aren't sufficiently on the same page it seems ... you have to push up or drop back as a team, otherwise you'll become stretched and there will be huge gaps for the opposition to exploit ... at times our forwards would press their defenders around their penalty box from their goal kick, but our defensive line was not even close to the half-way line, leaving loads of space in between for their players to pop up in and receive the ball.

Also I feel like we're not aggressive enough in the pressing itself ... it looked like we would push up and get within a few yards of them, but then not actually harass them on the ball ... we'll get picked apart if that continues.

I think that the latter problem might be less of an issue once the season starts, because the players will have more intensity. But I worry that the first problem is going to take a long time to get sorted, as the players come to terms with a significantly different approach. If that is the case, I hope the fans (and the Chairman) are patient with Villas-Boas and the team, given that so many people wanted a more clearcut tactical system to take us to the next level. If you want a disciplined system like that, then you have to accept that it's going to take some time to master.

I agree, said at halftime in the pre-season thread that we were leaving an out ball from their goalkeeper to their left winger that was way too open.

Have to act as a unit, every player on the same page. And I agree, it will take some time, but hopefully be worth it.

 

[braineclipse]

Good post, and I agree for the most part. However, I would say that if you want to play an aggressive, high-tempo pressing game, then possession just for the sake of possession is partly necessary ... you need to dominate possession so that you don't have to press too often ... if the possession is around 50-50 then I don't think any team has the energy to press the opposition constantly ... whereas if you have 65% of the possession, even if that includes possession where you're not really going anywhere, you won't have to press as often and so will be more able to maintain high energy levels whilst doing it.

I'm sure I've heard Barcelona or Spanish coaches saying that they often rest when in possession. Of course you don't want to do that all the time, but I guess it's better to have 15% 'resting' possession and 50% possession 'with intent' than to have only the latter. You still have just as much possession 'with intent', but the opposition has less possession and so (all things being equal) less opportunities to score.

Problem is, if you have the kind of possession that I say isn't useful just passing the ball along the back four and exchanging passes with the midfield occasionally your opponents are resting too. It takes very little energy to have 10 men behind the ball in your own half jogging (or even walking) sideways at times to cover space against a team that is just passing it without purpose. Could play like that for 4 hours without wearing the opponents out.

You do rest in position when you attack with purpose imo, it's much more tiring to defend than attack when the attacking is good. That advantage is lost when you just have possession for the sake of possession.

If up against a team that presses high up the pitch then just playing keep-ball in your own half will tire them out as they will be chasing back and forth. That's fine, but honestly I don't think we have the players to do that without losing the ball way too often.

I think we should (and will) play a pressing game with varying pressure. At times pressing high up the pitch, at times sitting back more. We're simply not at a level where we can press for the entire game without getting picked apart. Lots of talk of Barca, who are of course great at that extreme pressing all game, and good enough to get away with it. For me a better ideal at this point would be Manchester United, they can press the living daylights out of teams at times, but then they also just get everyone behind the ball denying the opponents space at times. Again, all about acting as a unit, every single player defending in the same way at the same time.

 

[elltrev]

Problem is, if you have the kind of possession that I say isn't useful just passing the ball along the back four and exchanging passes with the midfield occasionally your opponents are resting too. It takes very little energy to have 10 men behind the ball in your own half jogging (or even walking) sideways at times to cover space against a team that is just passing it without purpose. Could play like that for 4 hours without wearing the opponents out.

You do rest in position when you attack with purpose imo, it's much more tiring to defend than attack when the attacking is good. That advantage is lost when you just have possession for the sake of possession.

If up against a team that presses high up the pitch then just playing keep-ball in your own half will tire them out as they will be chasing back and forth. That's fine, but honestly I don't think we have the players to do that without losing the ball way too often.

I think we should (and will) play a pressing game with varying pressure. At times pressing high up the pitch, at times sitting back more. We're simply not at a level where we can press for the entire game without getting picked apart. Lots of talk of Barca, who are of course great at that extreme pressing all game, and good enough to get away with it. For me a better ideal at this point would be Manchester United, they can press the living daylights out of teams at times, but then they also just get everyone behind the ball denying the opponents space at times. Again, all about acting as a unit, every single player defending in the same way at the same time.

As you said before, I guess it all depends on the team you're playing and what the score is.

With regard to your first point (which is true), I still don't think that's necessarily a problem that they're not tiring. If you constantly press the opposition and win the ball back quickly, and then as soon as you have it they have 10 men jogging behind the ball and make no attempt to win it back, then you are going to absolutely dominate possession. So because you have so much more possession overall you can afford to not constantly play with attacking intent.

> I'm assuming here that you're more likely to lose possession when playing with attacking intent than you are when you're just keeping the ball for the sake of it.

I'm not sure if I'm explaining myself well; do you see what I'm trying to say? Basically that the aim here would be just to minimise their possession as much as possible (not necessarily to tire the opposition).

I agree with the rest of your post. Indeed, I'm not actually proposing that we prioritise dominating possession - I don't think it suits our players (in particular Lennon and Bale). In general I actually prefer teams that are versatile in their approach, like United as you say.

I liked the way Valencia set themselves up - basically just defended their half. Generally didn't try and press us really high up in our own half, but pressed very aggressively as soon as we entered their half and / or played it out of our defence. Quite effective and safer I think.

 

[Raziel]

I'm not sure what people are going on about re the preseason games

Our midfield does not hold possession or defend the back four well without Sandro/Parker/Modric in it, or Ade/VDV up front, shocker??? *cue titanic headlines*

It's not an AVB thing, our squad was just as bad under Harry at start of last season when the same group of players was absent, nothing new.

 

[elltrev]

I'm not sure what people are going on about re the preseason games

Our midfield does not hold possession or defend the back four well without Sandro/Parker/Modric in it, or Ade/VDV up front, shocker??? *cue titanic headlines*

It's not an AVB thing, our squad was just as bad under Harry at start of last season when the same group of players was absent, nothing new.

It's not just about individuals being bad though ... it seemed pretty clear to me that AVB is trying to get us to press much higher up the pitch and play with a higher defensive line, as he did at Chelsea. And it also seemed clear that we are not doing it well enough as a team yet (as should be expected I guess, given that he's not been here long) ... and that this is going to cause us some problems, as it did at Chelsea.

Provided we have a fully-functioning Modric / his replacement, and Adebayor / an alternative, I'm not worried about us in possession. It's adapting to what seems like a new defensive system that makes me a bit anxious.

 

[indianspur]

I liked the way Valencia set themselves up - basically just defended their half. Generally didn't try and press us really high up in our own half, but pressed very aggressively as soon as we entered their half and / or played it out of our defence. Quite effective and safer I think.

this!!

with players like Bale and Lennon, plus hopefully a quick mobile striker, this is how we could be very effective

 

[indianspur]

I'm not sure what people are going on about re the preseason games

Our midfield does not hold possession or defend the back four well without Sandro/Parker/Modric in it, or Ade/VDV up front, shocker??? *cue titanic headlines*

It's not an AVB thing, our squad was just as bad under Harry at start of last season when the same group of players was absent, nothing new.

well go back to his Chelsea time and see if it worked if you want more conclusive proof in comparison to the current pre season games

 

[Rob]

I think Rafa can switch between the attacking of the three (competition with Sigurdsson) and the RWF (competition with Lennon)

No no no no no.


No.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

No no no no no.

No.

No what? VDV cant play RWF?

I agree under Redknapp he wasnt ideal playing there, but there is no arguing he still got goals and assists.

I didnt particularly like him there last season, but it would be unfair to say he couldnt do the job.

In a 'proper' 433 I think he could be much more successful. If things are organised instead of intuitive, he can play there to very good effect IMHO

.......Sandro....Moutinho
...........Sigurdsson
..VDV....................Bale
...........Adebayor

Looks bloody good to me. Walker is given licence to open up his legs, VDVs wandering is accomodated - as wellas easier ability to find pockets of space, we maintain a central threat/support to Adebayor, Bale/Ekotto give us width to stretch play...

In a more structured 433, a well drilled system where space is purposefully created and used, I think he could be very good there

 

[NaijaSpurs]

No no no no no.


No.

You are darn right no. The one place VDV will not play is on the right wing, he is simply not discplined enough

 

[Rob]

No what? VDV cant play RWF?

I agree under Redknapp he wasnt ideal playing there, but there is no arguing he still got goals and assists.

I didnt particularly like him there last season, but it would be unfair to say he couldnt do the job.

In a 'proper' 433 I think he could be much more successful. If things are organised instead of intuitive, he can play there to very good effect IMHO

.......Sandro....Moutinho
...........Sigurdsson
..VDV....................Bale
...........Adebayor

Looks bloody good to me. Walker is given licence to open up his legs, VDVs wandering is accomodated - as wellas easier ability to find pockets of space, we maintain a central threat/support to Adebayor, Bale/Ekotto give us width to stretch play...

In a more structured 433, a well drilled system where space is purposefully created and used, I think he could be very good there

Sorry mate but, as much as that looks all very good on paper, I just can't get past what I saw with my own eyes last season. EVERY game that Lennon was missing for saw defences cope far too easily with us. Full backs do not like pace and when we had Bale on one side (regardless which side) and Lennon on the other they were over stretched and we tortured some teams. If they put 2 people on Bale, as they invariably did and would in the formation you have suggested, then this gave Lennon acres of space to run into...unless they played the other full back tight on him in which case it left holes through the middle, if they put 2 people on Lennon then it was the same down the other side. When Lennon was out they just put 2 men on Bale and left Rafa the space on the right that they knew he doesn't have the pace to utilise. They closed up shop and we, more often than not, kept hold of the ball but ran out of ideas.

This was evident from our Away game at the Hawthorns last November from which Lennon was absent and should have been rectified in January... It wasn't - so you'll all have to excuse me if I'm not confident that our glaringly obvious deficiencies will be corrected by the end of this window either. I'm not normally pessimistic but I can only base my judgement on the evidence I ave already seen

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

Sorry mate but, as much as that looks all very good on paper, I just can't get past what I saw with my own eyes last season. EVERY game that Lennon was missing for saw defences cope far too easily with us. Full backs do not like pace and when we had Bale on one side (regardless which side) and Lennon on the other they were over stretched and we tortured some teams. If they put 2 people on Bale, as they invariably did and would in the formation ou have suggested, then this gave Lennon acres of space to run into...unless they played the other full back tight on him in which case it left holes through the middle, if they put 2 people on Lennon then it was the same down the other side. When Lennon was out they just put 2 men on Bale and left Rafa the space on the right that they knew he doesn't have the pace to utilise. They loses up shop and we, more often than not, kept hold of the ball but ran out of ideas.

This was evident from our Away game at the Hawthorns last November from which Lennon was absent and should have been rectified in January... It wasn't - so you'll all have to excuse me if I'm not confident that our glaringly obvious deficiencies will be corrected by the end of this window either. I'm not normally pessimistic but I can only base my judgement on the evidence I ave already seen

First things first, Im certainly not averse to Lennon on the right. Not at all, Im a big fan of his.

All I was talking about in the first instance was options. We have VDV/Sigurdsson for the AMC role, we have Lennon/VDV for the RW/RWF role. Good options, IMHO.

Secondly, while losing Lennon was an obvious issue - I do not believe Harrys style compensated for it sufficiently. Hence my points on it being an organised 433, with tactical mechanisms in place to make sure we operate at our optimum.

I think the team I posted would do just fine in all honesty, so long as there is a tactical discipline at play.

 

[Rob]

First things first, Im certainly not averse to Lennon on the right. Not at all, Im a big fan of his.

All I was talking about in the first instance was options. We have VDV/Sigurdsson for the AMC role, we have Lennon/VDV for the RW/RWF role. Good options, IMHO.

Secondly, while losing Lennon was an obvious issue - I do not believe Harrys style compensated for it sufficiently. Hence my points on it being an organised 433, with tactical mechanisms in place to make sure we operate at our optimum.

I think the team I posted would do just fine in all honesty, so long as there is a tactical discipline at play.

No I certainly agree with you tht HR's tactics wouldn't have given it the best of advertisements and also I do take into consideration that with the new addition of Siggy through the middle that we would automatically be causing our opponents more problems than with the similar set up from last season. I wasn't questioning or suggesting that you thought Rafa should be ahead of Lennon mate I just believe that we should have someone who can offer competition and fit into the side in Lennon or Bale's absence without changing our style of play. Maybe bringing in someone like Krasic in January hinged on Gio agreeing to a move and as that didn't materialise then neither did a back up winger? Who knows, but also maybe if Gio is still here in September then AVB might make the best use of the squad available to him rather than shutting him out completely?

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

Im happy for a more Lennon like replacement, in the interests of continuity - though I do like the option of changing things with someone like VDV.

Im not entirely sure how Sigurdssons introduction will play out.

IMO, right now the differences between him and VDV in the role are as follows
- VDV roamed. A lot (Robbie Keane like) meaning he was available for midfielders in deep positions
- VDV left Ade to it a lot when on his roaming exercises, which cost us at times in advanced areas
- VDVs roaming led to him running out of steam

- Sigurdsson will, I think, 'hang forward' more holding the AM position
- This means he wont be an easy/obvious ball for players in deep positions as regularly
- It should also mean he is in position to support attacking plays more

So I think Sigurdsson would cause opponents more problems as long as the team can find him in positions to do so. If they cant prepare for "Sigurdsson, what does he do?" threads a plenty!

This is also a lot of my thinking in putting VDV RWF, he can roam from there and hlp the team a lot more without it costing us as it did when he was central

 

[metalgear]

i believe we will line up more like 4-5-1, with bale, lennon and vdv furthest forward but behind the striker. we only need one defensive midfielder so the remaining midfield slot goes to siggy.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

i believe we will line up more like 4-5-1, with bale, lennon and vdv furthest forward but behind the striker. we only need one defensive midfielder so the remaining midfield slot goes to siggy.

Personally dont see how Sigurdsson and VDV both occupy central positions within the team. Unless you have a very different view as to what sort of player Sigurdsson is to me.