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Antonio Conte - officially NOT the coach of THFC

Surfless said:
I'm on holiday and just took the time to read the last ten pages of this thread - what an articulate and knowledgeable bunch we have on here.

Here's a question for everyone, remembering I'm pro Poch returning.

If Jose or Conte had the squad that Poch had - dembele, Jan, Toby, walker, rose, Kane, eriksen, alli, etc would we have won something? I fancy we might have done. Would it have been fun to watch? Probably not.

Our two "win now" manager appointments would have been able to mould the squad that came third in a two horse race into winners, I've no doubt - but they would also have bored us to tears doing it. Poch got us flying, believing and roaring!

So do we want turgid football and a cup or Tottenham playing as Bill Nic prescribed, with passion and flair?

Final footnote - the failure of both Jose and Conte comes down to the purchase of a centre back. Jose got Rodon and Conte got Lenglet.
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Well…
I’d argue Hugo has cost us much much more than any CB this season …
I can name games, goals and points that his basic, unforced errors have cost us key goals in that lead to BIG points being lost
I can’t immediately think of one CB error that directly contributed to a goal in the same way
I do get that keepers errors are different of course but I’m talking basics, real basics
Dier vs Liverpool level basics

and the relevance is that no one said in the summer replacing Hugo was a priority but if we had replaced him this season after his first big errors we may have had more points on the board and conte still here….
 
Gutter Boy said:
Is the evidence not that he's been the only manager in the past 40 years who has really performed with the club?
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That's a weird statement
- There are managers in that timeframe that won cups
- There are managers like BMJ and Harry who were successful based on where the club was at the time

The issue you, @thfcsteff, and other miss/forget is regardless of the circumstance (and there were plenty of circumstances), Poch and the team had run it's course/burnt out.

There is two distinct questions

- Would Poch and that team, minus the Wembley move and given more investment earlier been ultimately successful? = I think most reasonable people would lean to yes
- Would Poch and the team post the CL final been able to turn it around after hitting that wall, that bad year, the start, Toby and Eriksen wanting out? = This is what I disagree with, very little evidence to see where any manager has fallen into that cycle and been able to recover it (Wenger is a classic examples, decades of success, but once it started to go downhill, never could reverse it and he had all the backing/credit in the world)

Summary - did we miss the boat during his tenure to give him more? yes, would sticking with him post the firing point have made sense? no, imo he was done
 
Raziel said:
That's a weird statement
- There are managers in that timeframe that won cups
- There are managers like BMJ and Harry who were successful based on where the club was at the time

The issue you, @thfcsteff, and other miss/forget is regardless of the circumstance (and there were plenty of circumstances), Poch and the team had run it's course/burnt out.

There is two distinct questions

- Would Poch and that team, minus the Wembley move and given more investment earlier been ultimately successful? = I think most reasonable people would lean to yes
- Would Poch and the team post the CL final been able to turn it around after hitting that wall, that bad year, the start, Toby and Eriksen wanting out? = This is what I disagree with, very little evidence to see where any manager has fallen into that cycle and been able to recover it (Wenger is a classic examples, decades of success, but once it started to go downhill, never could reverse it and he had all the backing/credit in the world)

Summary - did we miss the boat during his tenure to give him more? yes, would sticking with him post the firing point have made sense? no, imo he was done
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I don't think anyone since Burkinshaw got us punching above our weight so consistently and for so long. Venables, Jol, Redknapp had a few purple patches, but Poch had us consistently finishing in the top 3, with the lowest spend in the league.

The Poch team definitely got to the end of a cycle and needed a big renewal. But so did Klopp's Liverpool around the same time. But they backed their man to ride out a few bumps, and it paid dividends. While we shat the bed and have been in decline ever since.
 
Gutter Boy said:
I don't think it works like that. Neither would have liked that squad. It was too cavalier and flair orientated. They both would have changed out say Eriksen and Dembele for someone more Hojbjerg and and say used Dier as a 3rd CB (in addition to Wanyama at DM). Maybe used Trippier and Davies more than Walker and Rose (who were both too maverick in style and personality).

So basically they would have ruined everything that was great about that side, and tried to build us a different Poundland Chelsea instead.
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Rose and walker too maverick? The guy bought porro and previously had a forward as a left wing back.....
 
Raziel said:
That's a weird statement
- There are managers in that timeframe that won cups
- There are managers like BMJ and Harry who were successful based on where the club was at the time

The issue you, @thfcsteff, and other miss/forget is regardless of the circumstance (and there were plenty of circumstances), Poch and the team had run it's course/burnt out.

There is two distinct questions

- Would Poch and that team, minus the Wembley move and given more investment earlier been ultimately successful? = I think most reasonable people would lean to yes
- Would Poch and the team post the CL final been able to turn it around after hitting that wall, that bad year, the start, Toby and Eriksen wanting out? = This is what I disagree with, very little evidence to see where any manager has fallen into that cycle and been able to recover it (Wenger is a classic examples, decades of success, but once it started to go downhill, never could reverse it and he had all the backing/credit in the world)

Summary - did we miss the boat during his tenure to give him more? yes, would sticking with him post the firing point have made sense? no, imo he was done
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Pochettino told the chairman that the team was done (painful rebuild). The chairman didn’t believe him so employed Mourinho (and then Mason and then Nuno and then Conte and then Stellini and then whoever’s next) instead. Turns out the person who had been managing the first team for the past 5 years ended up knowing more than the chairman and being right…. Who’d have thought it?!?
 
Finney Is Back said:
Pochettino told the chairman that the team was done (painful rebuild). The chairman didn’t believe him so employed Mourinho (and then Mason and then Nuno and then Conte and then Stellini and then whoever’s next) instead. Turns out the person who had been managing the first team for the past 5 years ended up knowing more than the chairman and being right…. Who’d have thought it?!?
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You are not answering the question posed

- I'm not disagreeing that the team needed investment, but by time we got to that October it was too late for Poch, do you disagree?

What a lot of people, you included, seem to think is somehow Poch would have turned around himself and the team with just money injection. I fail to see why anyone believes that outside of blind hope. And to answer @Gutter Boy's point, while Klopp may have rebuilt Liverpool when he came in, he was fresh even if the club wasn't (I'm quite interested to see if Klopp will be able to re-build from here)
 
Gutter Boy said:
We came close runner up in the two biggest competitions in the world (CL and EPL). If he could get anywhere close to that again, I'm sure everyone would be delighted.
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I can never get my head round that Poch's detractors just dismiss this. As if any manager of Spurs could do this. And the latest trend is that Conte and Jose would definitely have won a trophy with Poch's team. Neither could have worked with Rose or Dele for a start and the less said about Conte and Son the better.
 
monkeybarry said:
We should also be careful not to rewrite history here - a hell of a lot of fans had concluded Poch had reached his ceiling and felt a change was needed to make the next step forward.
Poch didn't exactly pull up trees at PSG either - we are looking through rose tinted glasses when it comes to Poch.
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Didn't pull up trees at PSG? What does that mean? He won every thing domestically that he could have. He beat Bayern and Barca in the Champions League. They have not won the CL under a succession of managers some much more decorated than Poch. It's remarkable how this stuff is just put out there without being backed up by facts.
 
Raziel said:
Basically a pretty reliable source in Argentina saying Romero & Richi told the club either Conte went or they wanted out

https://twitter.com/x/status/1640790493423599616
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Who decides it’s a reliable source, do you know your Argentinian media sources that well?


Richarlison, who was injured during the dramatic St Mary's clash, was later accused by a journalist from Argentinian broadcaster TyC Sports of giving an ultimatum to Tottenham alongside club team-mate Cristian Romero over Conte's future.

But the Brazil international rejected those allegations on Thursday.

'Questioning and criticising me as a player for my performance is part of football and I got it,' Richarlison said on Twitter.

'However, telling lies about me, I don't accept! I've always had a lot of respect for Conte and for all my coaches.

'He helped me a lot in my (sic) coming to the Spurs and, whenever we had a problem (even if it was public) we solved it based on conversation and professionalism - and this he can confirm.

'I wasn't a mutiny leader against him, it was quite the opposite. I'm sorry I didn't deliver as much as he expected of me and I didn't do enough for him to stay.

'When he left, I sent him a message thanking him for everything and wishing him the best cause that's what he deserves!

'On the other hand, the journalist responsible for this awful lie did not even do the least which would be talking to my PR or listening to me. Bad professional and bad character! And shame on you, TyC Sports!'
 
Robspur12 said:
Didn't pull up trees at PSG? What does that mean? He won every thing domestically that he could have. He beat Bayern and Barca in the Champions League. They have not won the CL under a succession of managers some much more decorated than Poch. It's remarkable how this stuff is just put out there without being backed up by facts.
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The
Robspur12 said:
Didn't pull up trees at PSG? What does that mean? He won every thing domestically that he could have. He beat Bayern and Barca in the Champions League. They have not won the CL under a succession of managers some much more decorated than Poch. It's remarkable how this stuff is just put out there without being backed up by facts.
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Unnecessarily douchey.
Winning is France is a basic for PSG.
Losing in the Last 16 of the CL is "not pulling up trees". Fast forward two years and PSG made the final and the semi the next year. I'd call that pulling up trees. I'd say Last 16 is mediocre - and therefore not a piece of evidence that he can push on, even with superstars.
 
monkeybarry said:
The


Unnecessarily douchey.
Winning is France is a basic for PSG.
Losing in the Last 16 of the CL is "not pulling up trees". Fast forward two years and PSG made the final and the semi the next year. I'd call that pulling up trees. I'd say Last 16 is mediocre - and therefore not a piece of evidence that he can push on, even with superstars.
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Who knocked them out?
 
Finney Is Back said:
Pochettino told the chairman that the team was done (painful rebuild). The chairman didn’t believe him so employed Mourinho (and then Mason and then Nuno and then Conte and then Stellini and then whoever’s next) instead. Turns out the person who had been managing the first team for the past 5 years ended up knowing more than the chairman and being right…. Who’d have thought it?!?
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I am sad this conversation is happening again. Really sad. FWIW we are in the same corner. But the fact this conversation keeps happening should tell everyone what a giant fudge up it was.
 
parklane1 said:
Without a doubt there are those who are actually doing that ( and i say this as one who would have given Poch to the end of the season before making the judgement to sack him). He was great for us no doubt but that last spell under him was poor to say the least. But its what fans do and our fans are no different to other clubs fans, i do not want Pooch back and want us to move onwards past what he did or not do.
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No ‘they’ aren’t. In fact, many of ‘them’ (despite ‘themselves’) don’t think it’d be a good idea given the same structure is in place, and therefore the same issues will likely occur. I think (as I said somewhere else) it’s sad the conversation is even happening. We should’ve left it behind by now. Yet here we are…
 
thfcsteff said:
I am sad this conversation is happening again. Really sad. FWIW we are in the same corner. But the fact this conversation keeps happening should tell everyone what a giant fudge up it was.
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Just because the conversation happens repeatedly doesn't mean your take on it is the right one. It's like the trophies / top four debate, or what world class means, or whether or not Bassong truly deserved to be suspended for as long as he was ;)

No doubt it's a sliding doors kind of decision and wondering what if is an interesting discussion. However everything boiling down to Poch being faultless because he asked for a "rebuild" is such a flimsy argument. It's such is a wishy washy term in a footballing landscape where every team is constantly looking to improve, year in year out. The guy that saw N'dombele and Lo Celso as key ways to improve the team is not the guy that should "rebuild" anything. He wanted Jay fudging Rodriguez at one stage ffs.....

The rebuild comment is likened to some of Plato's best whilst all the flimflam about Lemons, egos, leaving in the case of winning the CL is swept under the carpet because his English was dogbrick? I don't buy it.
 
monkeybarry said:
The


Unnecessarily douchey.
Winning is France is a basic for PSG.
Losing in the Last 16 of the CL is "not pulling up trees". Fast forward two years and PSG made the final and the semi the next year. I'd call that pulling up trees. I'd say Last 16 is mediocre - and therefore not a piece of evidence that he can push on, even with superstars.
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So he's there for just one and a half seasons takes them to the semis in one year and then gets knocked out by serial winners Real Madrid next season but he's not pulling up trees? That is a fairly blinkered analysis. Not surprised then that I am "douchey"....
 
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