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Antonio Conte - officially NOT the coach of THFC

It's not just blaming Levy. It's this "he only wants top 4 and not to win" narrative that they annoyingly peddle. Even if we assume that Levy's only objective is to increase the club's value, the only way to grow this value now that the stadium is built is not to just get top 4, but to win titles or be in the mix for them. I don't get what the anti-Levy phalanx doesn't get about this. Just getting top 4 will get us some additional CL prize money, whereas winning league and CL titles will explode our revenue and massively increase the club's value. So to assume that Levy, a businessman trying to increase his asset's value, is happy with just top 4, is entirely counterintuitive. Whatever...

Because to accept the logic/strategy of the club is to give credit

1/ we need more revenue to compete, to try to close the gap
2/ the stadium was first step
3/ top 4 is an obvious way to improve our revenue stream
3/ The F1 deal, non sporting events are all additional options

We are already spending more, Conte is quantifiably the best backed manager we have had, Poch, Jose & Conte have been 3 of the best paid managers in Europe.

The problem with Levy/ENIC continues to be
- They/he is playing a long game (annoys fans, who think 20 years is enough)
- He's not willing to risk short term for long (hence, yes top 4 is important because it allows long term compete)
- The fact that we are continuing to up the spend seems to indicate our goal isn't simply top 4, and to your point long term asset appreciation will be affected by more than top 4 success.
 
I want to see what comes of the review into FFP, as if the jungle drums are correct then the doping clubs could well find they will need a host of new ways to get around the rules. Once this occurs, we're suddenly still able to spend £100-200m a window and others may find that their businesses can't sustain it.

There's been talk of salary caps and all sorts this week for instance - imagine what would happen if every mercenary who comes to the league for a payout before retirement (Casimiro anyone?) is capped at £130,000 a week.

I've a feeling that is what Levy is hanging out for too.
 
Because they have more money than us for much much longer. We had one 3-4 year period under Poch that we were really good and in the mix, but it didn't result in a trophy. These things happen. United, Chelsea, and Arsenal have gone through 3-4 years without winning anything. The difference between them and us is that they didn't have just a 3-4 year window to do so. Their window has been 20 years and more and when they were in a bad patch they also didn't win anything.

So I think it is a bit disingenuous to compare us with these other teams. I'll accept your argument if we still haven't won anything in 5-10 years time compared to our rivals, because now we have closed the financial gap significantly and are more comparable to them. But up until a couple of years ago we have been playing catchup and any comparison is apples and oranges
Oh I agree in terms of the long term game financially etc But money is irrelative because despite that money their teams have been poor and still won things, I’d agree with the money thing when they were actually a decent side and was picking up trophies.

Look at Arteta, he took over a bang average Arsenal side and won the cup with them. Was it because they had great players? No. Great manager? Nope. But they have a successful and winning culture, plastered around the stadium all the things they’ve won and players going there know the standards expected, if not always achieved. But us? Everyone knows the reputation we have, players coming in will know you’re not expected to win anything and just qualifying for the CL is considered good enough.

Considering you and many others are baying for Conte to be out of the door, despite him achieving top 4 last season and very much in the mix this season - and apparently with this squad that isn’t much of an achievement….I don’t see why then it’s not fair that you compare them to the other big 6 that do actually win things, you can’t have it both ways.

And that’s part of the problem - many Spurs fans always have excuses why we didn’t win this or achieve that rather than just say what it really is. We aren’t currently good enough, and to go that next level sure money will help but we need a mentality shift that still despite having had a couple of the most decorated managers in the game we don’t possess…..
 
I don't recall everything from the top down revolving around top 4 when ENIC first came in. The goals have changed over time.
When ENIC came in the aim would've been just to stabilise as a top half team. That was achieved.
The goal then moved to qualifying for Europe and establishing ourselves there, again achieved.
Only after that was the goal to achieve top 4 on a regular basis. And guess what, that's been achieved.
It's obvious that the goal is now to win something, otherwise Levy wouldn't have hired proven winners like Conte and Mourinho to get us over the line.
He would've settled for a manger that isn't costing 15m a year and settled for someone he believed was good enough for a top 4 finish.
Agree with some/a lot of that but where is the evidence we are now targeting trophies beyond hiring managers who have won them in the past?

Because apparently Jose was sacked for wanting to prioritise the cup final, and there’s certainly no evidence of Conte focusing on cups either? We achieved Champions League football 13 years ago, and the only time we consistently got in CL since was under Poch and since then Conte has achieved it once and now looks like he’s going. It doesn’t look like we are progressing beyond at best top 4 qualifications. If we want to achieve beyond that I don’t see anything other than changes at the top required to be made - I’ve been nothing but thankful for what Levy has done over the years and like you have alluded to the progression of the club.….
 
Agree with some/a lot of that but where is the evidence we are now targeting trophies beyond hiring managers who have won them in the past?

Because apparently Jose was sacked for wanting to prioritise the cup final, and there’s certainly no evidence of Conte focusing on cups either? We achieved Champions League football 13 years ago, and the only time we consistently got in CL since was under Poch and since then Conte has achieved it once and now looks like he’s going. It doesn’t look like we are progressing beyond at best top 4 qualifications. If we want to achieve beyond that I don’t see anything other than changes at the top required to be made - I’ve been nothing but thankful for what Levy has done over the years and like you have alluded to the progression of the club.….

If the timing had been right under Pochettino and the team peaked when we moved in to the stadium rather than a couple of seasons prior then there's every chance that he/the team/the club would have achieved great success together - As much as i love Poch i don't think he's a 1 in a million manager, he just fit the club well (as well as being a good manager) Other managers can and will do a good job here, we have just appointed a succession of managers that don't fit the club or aren't good enough - get the manager right and it has demonstratably been shown that we can fight a level or two above our standing with ENIC in charge, so i don't know why people have this notion that we can't expect to do better than 4th with them (especially when the peak is CL final and 2nd in the PL)
 
Oh I agree in terms of the long term game financially etc But money is irrelative because despite that money their teams have been poor and still won things, I’d agree with the money thing when they were actually a decent side and was picking up trophies.

Look at Arteta, he took over a bang average Arsenal side and won the cup with them. Was it because they had great players? No. Great manager? Nope. But they have a successful and winning culture, plastered around the stadium all the things they’ve won and players going there know the standards expected, if not always achieved. But us? Everyone knows the reputation we have, players coming in will know you’re not expected to win anything and just qualifying for the CL is considered good enough.

Considering you and many others are baying for Conte to be out of the door, despite him achieving top 4 last season and very much in the mix this season - and apparently with this squad that isn’t much of an achievement….I don’t see why then it’s not fair that you compare them to the other big 6 that do actually win things, you can’t have it both ways.

And that’s part of the problem - many Spurs fans always have excuses why we didn’t win this or achieve that rather than just say what it really is. We aren’t currently good enough, and to go that next level sure money will help but we need a mentality shift that still despite having had a couple of the most decorated managers in the game we don’t possess…..
I don't want to have it both ways. What I have mentioned in other posts is that you cannot compare Spurs of 3-4 years ago and earlier to the other big 6. Based on where we were in 2000-2019 and what resources we had I would be happy with where we are currently. Based on where we are today and today's squad, I'm not happy. I'm not happy with the fact that this year and last year we went out meekly to Championship teams. But I don't blame the board because in the 20 years before that we only won one trophy. We were nowhere near where we are now.

So I am not moving the goalposts. I am adjusting my expectations based on reality; based one where we are as a club at any given time. As opposed to some other folks who think we should have won a whole bunch of stuff the entirety of these past 20-25 years and that Levy is the reason we didn't, without actually considering what our resources were at any given time!

As for Arteta, yeah he won an FA Cup when they were struggling (with the first decent opposition coming in the semi and having won all their previous games by a solitary goal). Well, guess what: we also made a final when we were struggling in 2015 and another one, again when we were struggling, in 2019. If we were the losing mentality club you claim we are, we would have done neither. And the fact we lost both is not because the board said to the players "we're happy with 4th."
 
Agree with some/a lot of that but where is the evidence we are now targeting trophies beyond hiring managers who have won them in the past?

Because apparently Jose was sacked for wanting to prioritise the cup final, and there’s certainly no evidence of Conte focusing on cups either? We achieved Champions League football 13 years ago, and the only time we consistently got in CL since was under Poch and since then Conte has achieved it once and now looks like he’s going. It doesn’t look like we are progressing beyond at best top 4 qualifications. If we want to achieve beyond that I don’t see anything other than changes at the top required to be made - I’ve been nothing but thankful for what Levy has done over the years and like you have alluded to the progression of the club.….
Just like climbing Everest, the last 1000ft is probably the hardest. The challenges, the obstacles become harder. It's more than annoying (especially as a club owner), if 2 (potentially 3) of those obstacles are ex yo yo arsewipe clubs that have helicoptered themselves to the summit.

Without the spend levels we see now, Poch undoubtedly built a team that could win. It looked like one, it smelt like one. Did he fail because of the overall curse/culture, call it what you will. Probably not imo. More likely we didn't have quite enough or a bit of luck in a particular game. It never felt like the team was letting me down. Never felt like mentally we couldn't do it...we had too many big results that prove otherwise.

Other big teams will get in your way, they're trying to win as well. The way we operate pushing past that is the hardest part of the ascent. Poch gives us hope, Klopp gives us hope and even legohead gives us even more hope (as I still think he's bang average) that given smart scouting, smart spending, and above all a smart manager, you can have your day in the sun.
 
I don't want to have it both ways. What I have mentioned in other posts is that you cannot compare Spurs of 3-4 years ago and earlier to the other big 6. Based on where we were in 2000-2019 and what resources we had I would be happy with where we are currently. Based on where we are today and today's squad, I'm not happy. I'm not happy with the fact that this year and last year we went out meekly to Championship teams. But I don't blame the board because in the 20 years before that we only won one trophy. We were nowhere near where we are now.

So I am not moving the goalposts. I am adjusting my expectations based on reality; based one where we are as a club at any given time. As opposed to some other folks who think we should have won a whole bunch of stuff the entirety of these past 20-25 years and that Levy is the reason we didn't, without actually considering what our resources were at any given time!

As for Arteta, yeah he won an FA Cup when they were struggling (with the first decent opposition coming in the semi and having won all their previous games by a solitary goal). Well, guess what: we also made a final when we were struggling in 2015 and another one, again when we were struggling, in 2019. If we were the losing mentality club you claim we are, we would have done neither. And the fact we lost both is not because the board said to the players "we're happy with 4th."

So two comments

- Your point of where we are, and what expectations could/should be, were/are different now, 5 vs. 10 vs. 15 years ago, is the big miss when talking about "20 years"
- Arteta also finished 8th twice, a result that we have been as bad as since the Juade/Harry season, it's fudging hilarious, not a single Spurs fan would have sat through that 2 seasons without throwing a fit
 
After Mourinho and Conte I am not convinced we need to go for another big name manager who will get his panties in a twist if we do not sign a player he wants.

A forward thinking manager who plays attacking football is what we need. We will not get the Brighton manager but there are other Roberto DeZerbi's out there.
 
Agree with some/a lot of that but where is the evidence we are now targeting trophies beyond hiring managers who have won them in the past?

Because apparently Jose was sacked for wanting to prioritise the cup final, and there’s certainly no evidence of Conte focusing on cups either? We achieved Champions League football 13 years ago, and the only time we consistently got in CL since was under Poch and since then Conte has achieved it once and now looks like he’s going. It doesn’t look like we are progressing beyond at best top 4 qualifications. If we want to achieve beyond that I don’t see anything other than changes at the top required to be made - I’ve been nothing but thankful for what Levy has done over the years and like you have alluded to the progression of the club.….
Hiring elite managers that are amongst the highest paid in the world, investing more money in players than ever before, hiring a DoF to oversee improving all aspects on the football side, adding other staff (scouting etc) in order to act what the DoF is recommending. If Levy was happy to settle then those extra investments wouldn't be made.

Nobody knows why Jose was sacked, the timing is being used to say it was for prioritising the league, there is no other evidence. It's more likely that it was down to the results and football being brick and having lost the dressing room. We've been in the CL 5 times since 2016/17, which to me counts as being in it regularly.

The only change at the top that would make any significant difference is getting bought by a sugar daddy. The spending has increased in the last couple of years (we're behind where we should be because covid closing stadiums hit us harder than anyone else) and it's that that will make the biggest difference to challenging for trophies.
 
If the timing had been right under Pochettino and the team peaked when we moved in to the stadium rather than a couple of seasons prior then there's every chance that he/the team/the club would have achieved great success together - As much as i love Poch i don't think he's a 1 in a million manager, he just fit the club well (as well as being a good manager) Other managers can and will do a good job here, we have just appointed a succession of managers that don't fit the club or aren't good enough - get the manager right and it has demonstratably been shown that we can fight a level or two above our standing with ENIC in charge, so i don't know why people have this notion that we can't expect to do better than 4th with them (especially when the peak is CL final and 2nd in the PL)
Me personally, I think it's even more circumstantial than that. Poch was the right man at the right TIME. I am of the opionion that with a few rare exceptions, a player is pretty much a player. What they do and how they do it is more down to the environment and culture that their individual skill. A really skilled ball juggler with exceptional control doesn't mean he's a good footballer.

What we had under Poch were a hungry team with a great mix of talent and age, where everybody believed in the project and ran themselves into the ground until they didn't anymore. In hindsight we should have put more pressure on the established first teamers by reinforcing, but it's hard to justify when they perform as well as they did on a regular basis. Years of hard work, arguably the hardest in the league without winning anything was more the downfall than Poch doing anything worse or differently. Look at Liverpool, their downfall has an eerie similarity to ours, and they HAVE won something. Every manager or boss comes in with his own project, and it's usually easy to buy into when everything is untried. Sooner or later without success this will fade, with Poch it took a long time, under Jose not so much. During this time, something negative grew that I believe we still have with us. If a football club is anything like other workplaces, new employees will start out with their own mindset and expectations, but will soak up the internal culture pretty quickly. I don't put any more credibility to footballers' interviews than politicians, and I really do belive that we have a culture of a workplace you go to to collect wages, not to win things. At least we were such a club in the 90's according to former players, and I fear not much has changed. In my linguistically challenged head, there's a difference between wishing and wanting. We're a wishing club.

As another poster said, it's in the walls. I don't think a manager alone can change that.
 
Me personally, I think it's even more circumstantial than that. Poch was the right man at the right TIME. I am of the opionion that with a few rare exceptions, a player is pretty much a player. What they do and how they do it is more down to the environment and culture that their individual skill. A really skilled ball juggler with exceptional control doesn't mean he's a good footballer.

What we had under Poch were a hungry team with a great mix of talent and age, where everybody believed in the project and ran themselves into the ground until they didn't anymore. In hindsight we should have put more pressure on the established first teamers by reinforcing, but it's hard to justify when they perform as well as they did on a regular basis. Years of hard work, arguably the hardest in the league without winning anything was more the downfall than Poch doing anything worse or differently. Look at Liverpool, their downfall has an eerie similarity to ours, and they HAVE won something. Every manager or boss comes in with his own project, and it's usually easy to buy into when everything is untried. Sooner or later without success this will fade, with Poch it took a long time, under Jose not so much. During this time, something negative grew that I believe we still have with us. If a football club is anything like other workplaces, new employees will start out with their own mindset and expectations, but will soak up the internal culture pretty quickly. I don't put any more credibility to footballers' interviews than politicians, and I really do belive that we have a culture of a workplace you go to to collect wages, not to win things. At least we were such a club in the 90's according to former players, and I fear not much has changed. In my linguistically challenged head, there's a difference between wishing and wanting. We're a wishing club.

As another poster said, it's in the walls. I don't think a manager alone can change that.

I think this culture thing is just another in a long line of excuses people cling on to explain things (excuse might not be the right word) - in my mind it's really quite simple/boring to explain, we simply have not been at the level required for long enough to have expected to win trophies, we're in the most competitive league in the world and up until recently have had 4/5/6 teams far more wealthy than us to compete with - we had a great team under Redknapp for a year that had a shout for being one of the best teams in the league and under Poch for maybe a couple years at it's peak as well, other than that we really haven't been at that level at all and more crucially we haven't had the clout off the pitch to build a squad to supplement those first XIs when they were at their best. Right now we do have the clout to do that but have been lacking wrt the strength of our first XI
 
I think this culture thing is just another in a long line of excuses people cling on to explain things (excuse might not be the right word) - in my mind it's really quite simple/boring to explain, we simply have not been at the level required for long enough to have expected to win trophies, we're in the most competitive league in the world and up until recently have had 4/5/6 teams far more wealthy than us to compete with - we had a great team under Redknapp for a year that had a shout for being one of the best teams in the league and under Poch for maybe a couple years at it's peak as well, other than that we really haven't been at that level at all and more crucially we haven't had the clout off the pitch to build a squad to supplement those first XIs when they were at their best. Right now we do have the clout to do that but have been lacking wrt the strength of our first XI
I would agree if we talked about the league, but we should be good enough to challenge for trophies. Mentality is a strange thing, and when you pass the line where it doesn't really matter anymore it becomes crucial. No professional footballer will go hungry to bed, and few can't afford anything they could realistically want. As mentioned, wishing vs wanting and the great example about having stadiums decorated with former glory so that you're constantly reminded what the club is about and what is expected. We have a huge "To dare is to do" which is more marketing than culture.
 
I would agree if we talked about the league, but we should be good enough to challenge for trophies. Mentality is a strange thing, and when you pass the line where it doesn't really matter anymore it becomes crucial. No professional footballer will go hungry to bed, and few can't afford anything they could realistically want. As mentioned, wishing vs wanting and the great example about having stadiums decorated with former glory so that you're constantly reminded what the club is about and what is expected. We have a huge "To dare is to do" which is more marketing than culture.

I would say that we have challenged for trophies, 3 finals and 5 Semi Final appearences in the last 10 years - if you mean win trophies then yeah we obviously haven't won any but 8 SF or better in 10 seasons is surely a sign of challenging.
 
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