Challenging may have been an inadequate word, my apologies. But I still think our issue is just as much mentality and culture as it is squad strength and managerial ability.
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Antonio Conte - officially NOT the coach of THFC
- Thread starter Daisuk
- Start date
Well, that'll be put to the test once we build a team & squad strong enough to challenge - my guess is once we do that we will start picking up silverware
spurspinter1
Pat van den Hauwe
Took a few days off posting as I wasn't sure if I'd gone in too hard..
I firmly stated you had publicly considered it a miracle that we finished fourth last season. On the pod and retrospectively on the forum.
Edit - For clarity, I found this to be a truly weak labelling of a "miracle". I'm pretty sure I even quoted you on a post where I felt as such, along the lines of using finishing fourth is a "meh" by our standards, Leicester winning the title was what one would call a "miracle".
Conte's health issues or his approach to them aren't an excuse to our failings this season, nor are his personal issues, but I don't want to dispell a comfortable myth.
Additions are a tough point, we spent big in the "PL proven" market and haven't found it cost effective immediately when we needed it to be with our current manager, £95m's worth of Richy and Bissouma this season (I stress this season but they may eventually come good) have been let downs, along with Perisic and Lenglet that's too many expensive misses that were planned to be first teamers.
But, and herein lies a sad truth, I thought about it and we are polar opposite spectrums of Spurs fans, and if I convert you to the dark side, there's one less positive person in the world and I'd be a worse person for it.
As a speaker on the GG podcast, you are obligated to share a lot of opinions and it's easier for an anonymous weirdo (me!) to pick apart those views, than it is to present one's own views. Very specific things I hear stand out in my memory and play on my mind and it's hard not to bring them up even if I haven't listened in a while.
As for the final paragraph, every single manager in history would claim they were in need of a "rebuild". If we'd have just won the PL, guess what? You need a rebuild as doing the same again simply won't work. We needed a rebuild because we failed with Poch. Him stating it out loud was nothing new. Every single manager has that excuse. It infuriates me having that term thrown around like it ever meant anything.
The 4-3-3 with Lo Celso / N'dombele in midfield and Dele floating around somewhere or other sounds beyond diabolical, in a bad way. Disregard whoever told you that was Poch's plan - Carrying those players in that system whilst remaining competitive would take a "rebuild" that has never been seen before in football. If it actually was his plan: it wasn't a good enough plan nor was it anywhere in line with how his Spurs team played "successfully" beforehand..
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NaijaSpurs
Les Ferdinand
So 35 year old Nagglesman is now available, just sayin'.
thfcsteff
Garth Crooks
No worries mate, you have your style of posting and I get it. All good. I'll reply to what I've bold-faced above...
1) Yes, I have been known for hyperbole in the past (!!!), and one person's miracle is another person's 'meh', but frankly, I stand by the sentiment. The sequence of events which unfolded (given how we actually attempted to fudge ourselves with the Wolves home match) and Antonio using a squad tighter than a nun's chuff made our qualification (IMO) a miracle. Let's be honest; the Goons choked. I would not have admitted that so freely in May!
2) No worries. I couldn't be converted. We're getting into deeper territories on this topic, needless to say we're all different and that's a good thing as being the same would be weird.
3) Sorry, this 'we failed with Poch' stuff irks me. We over-achieved with Poch wildly. In context of being homeless for 1 1/2 seasons, establishing ourselves as a top 4 side, not moving players on when asked to and not buying who he necessarily wanted, and STILL making it to the CL Final, all the while uniting the club and supporters is a huge huge achievement, and far more important than winning some stupid Carabao Cup (didn't exactly ignite the Ramos era did it?!)...he ABSOLUTELY deserved the chance to rebuild again, because what he built with mk 1 out-stripped anything we'd been holistically for several years. Let's face it; one more season at WHL and we'd have won the league (tis a fair projection). So infuriated as you might be, I'll say again that he deserved the chance to rebuild based on all the above.
4) Hindsight is a great thing. I will always wonder how LoCelso and Ndombele would've turned out had they got the chance to bed in with the manager who wanted them. You can throw Foyth in there too, he might've proven a fine answer to many of our questions.
Offered in the spirit of discussion and debate mate...
Seems the obvious choice with the caveat that it is concerning that there are some comments about the cold man management style.
Maybe it's my coping mechanism, but not sure you can judge someone at Bayern on that, there is a bit of older player power in that system than can message anything they want.
alekaras
The ITK of IDK
I think the man management style preceded Bayern. That's the part I too am concerned about.
https://theathletic.com/4319228/2023/03/24/conte-tottenham-levy/
How Conte’s Tottenham turned ‘toxic’: The tension he brought has proven too much [Athletic]
Some highlights
Much of the Conte era — and certainly the first season — felt like a tussle between two competing impulses. He could be a brilliant coach, capable of getting his players fit, hungry and schooled in a style of play that was effective and efficient. But his dark moods and outbursts — when the friction got too much — wrecked any sense that everyone was pulling in the same direction
Tottenham tried to compromise and do things differently to keep Conte happy. ENIC arranged a £150million equity injection, which made things easier.They gave Ivan Perisic — one of Conte’s players from Inter — a two-year contract worth £180,000 per week, something they would never normally do. They spent an initial £50m on Richarlison, who was not even a guaranteed starter, and another £25m on Yves Bissouma. They acted early and proactively to get Conte his players before the tour to South Korea. Not that Conte was bowled over, saying after the first game of the season he was “really surprised” to read it was unusual for Spurs to do their business early. Tottenham also left four unwanted players at home rather than taking them on tour, something they would not normally do — another compromise in Conte’s direction
Part of this is to do with the style of play. When Conte arrived last season, the players were crying out for structure and that is what he brought. But players do not like to play like that forever. This season, a feeling has developed among the squad that they would rather play with more freedom rather than be stuck in Conte’s rigid 3-4-3.This will sound fickle and it probably is. This is a similar Spurs squad who went from feeling overtrained by Pochettino to undertrained by Mourinho at some speed. They had complaints about Conte’s training, too. At the start, they loved it, of course, even if at times Conte’s intensity could leave some players a little confused by his instructions. But by this season they found themselves bored by the predictable, repetitive exercises. It was a common complaint from players that they would actively look forward to international breaks just so they could finally do something different. Some at the club were also unhappy with Conte’s habit of providing very little notice for when training sessions would take place, which made planning difficult for players and staff alike. Medical and sports science staff would often not know their schedules more than a few days beforehand. Clubs always prefer a manager who provides the schedules well in advance. Conte’s short-notice methods left the club unable to organise a warm weather training camp during the World Cup break, because all the best venues had been booked by clubs who planned ahead.
Part of the issue was with Conte himself. There are some coaches with exceptional people skills who know how to get through to struggling players, to put an arm around their shoulders and lift their confidence at difficult times. Conte is not one of them. Even his greatest advocates would admit motivating players out of a slump is not one of his strengths. But plenty of Spurs players have seen their confidence and form drop and look as if they needed precisely the sort of personal motivation that does not come easily to Conte.
But it put Spurs in a strange position, with the head coach running his contract down and the club unwilling to take control of the situation.That added to a sense of drift; of not knowing how to plan beyond the summer. And no one picks up on these feelings quicker than a dressing room. Even if many of the players stopped enjoying playing for Conte long ago, they were broadly willing to go along with it as long as it was delivering results. They knew what Conte had achieved in his career and felt privileged to work with such a decorated coach. But as results faltered, the mood started to turn. And Conte never showed any interest in trying to repair it.
By the second half of this season, the mood inside the camp, according to multiple training-ground sources granted anonymity to protect relationships, was “toxic” or even “rotten”.The tension Conte had brought to the club had finally proved too much. Players were physically and mentally worn out, fed up and bored. Staff were frustrated by Conte’s public criticisms of the medical team and transfer policy, his abrasive manner, his repeated insistence that Spurs were not set up to compete. Training-ground sources have also pointed to the fact that even if players do not consciously stop playing for a manager, their incentives change as soon as they know he will be gone by the end of the season. Naturally, they would lose some of their motivational edge. There was even a feeling from some who remembered the last few months of Mourinho’s tenure that the last few months of Conte were worse than the dismal spring of 2021.There was a widespread feeling in the camp by the end that Conte simply did not want to be there any more. He cut an increasingly isolated figure, with only one ally left at the club in Paratici, and no other close relationships he could fall back on. Players felt that the energy and passion from his first season, which they had responded so well to, had gone.The way Conte confronted Thomas Tuchel in August, which they loved, now felt like a distant memory. In Conte’s first season, the players also appreciated how willing Conte had been to defend them all in public. But when Conte hammered his players at Southampton for being “selfish” and only playing “for themselves”, it brought into the open how broken the relationship was between manager and squad, even if some fans and pundits agreed with the sentiment. Conte knew he was going, but wanted to make sure he got his retaliation in before he was sacked. Most Spurs managers eventually lose the dressing room. Conte ensured that this time the dressing room had lost him first.
How Conte’s Tottenham turned ‘toxic’: The tension he brought has proven too much [Athletic]
Some highlights
Much of the Conte era — and certainly the first season — felt like a tussle between two competing impulses. He could be a brilliant coach, capable of getting his players fit, hungry and schooled in a style of play that was effective and efficient. But his dark moods and outbursts — when the friction got too much — wrecked any sense that everyone was pulling in the same direction
Tottenham tried to compromise and do things differently to keep Conte happy. ENIC arranged a £150million equity injection, which made things easier.They gave Ivan Perisic — one of Conte’s players from Inter — a two-year contract worth £180,000 per week, something they would never normally do. They spent an initial £50m on Richarlison, who was not even a guaranteed starter, and another £25m on Yves Bissouma. They acted early and proactively to get Conte his players before the tour to South Korea. Not that Conte was bowled over, saying after the first game of the season he was “really surprised” to read it was unusual for Spurs to do their business early. Tottenham also left four unwanted players at home rather than taking them on tour, something they would not normally do — another compromise in Conte’s direction
Part of this is to do with the style of play. When Conte arrived last season, the players were crying out for structure and that is what he brought. But players do not like to play like that forever. This season, a feeling has developed among the squad that they would rather play with more freedom rather than be stuck in Conte’s rigid 3-4-3.This will sound fickle and it probably is. This is a similar Spurs squad who went from feeling overtrained by Pochettino to undertrained by Mourinho at some speed. They had complaints about Conte’s training, too. At the start, they loved it, of course, even if at times Conte’s intensity could leave some players a little confused by his instructions. But by this season they found themselves bored by the predictable, repetitive exercises. It was a common complaint from players that they would actively look forward to international breaks just so they could finally do something different. Some at the club were also unhappy with Conte’s habit of providing very little notice for when training sessions would take place, which made planning difficult for players and staff alike. Medical and sports science staff would often not know their schedules more than a few days beforehand. Clubs always prefer a manager who provides the schedules well in advance. Conte’s short-notice methods left the club unable to organise a warm weather training camp during the World Cup break, because all the best venues had been booked by clubs who planned ahead.
Part of the issue was with Conte himself. There are some coaches with exceptional people skills who know how to get through to struggling players, to put an arm around their shoulders and lift their confidence at difficult times. Conte is not one of them. Even his greatest advocates would admit motivating players out of a slump is not one of his strengths. But plenty of Spurs players have seen their confidence and form drop and look as if they needed precisely the sort of personal motivation that does not come easily to Conte.
But it put Spurs in a strange position, with the head coach running his contract down and the club unwilling to take control of the situation.That added to a sense of drift; of not knowing how to plan beyond the summer. And no one picks up on these feelings quicker than a dressing room. Even if many of the players stopped enjoying playing for Conte long ago, they were broadly willing to go along with it as long as it was delivering results. They knew what Conte had achieved in his career and felt privileged to work with such a decorated coach. But as results faltered, the mood started to turn. And Conte never showed any interest in trying to repair it.
By the second half of this season, the mood inside the camp, according to multiple training-ground sources granted anonymity to protect relationships, was “toxic” or even “rotten”.The tension Conte had brought to the club had finally proved too much. Players were physically and mentally worn out, fed up and bored. Staff were frustrated by Conte’s public criticisms of the medical team and transfer policy, his abrasive manner, his repeated insistence that Spurs were not set up to compete. Training-ground sources have also pointed to the fact that even if players do not consciously stop playing for a manager, their incentives change as soon as they know he will be gone by the end of the season. Naturally, they would lose some of their motivational edge. There was even a feeling from some who remembered the last few months of Mourinho’s tenure that the last few months of Conte were worse than the dismal spring of 2021.There was a widespread feeling in the camp by the end that Conte simply did not want to be there any more. He cut an increasingly isolated figure, with only one ally left at the club in Paratici, and no other close relationships he could fall back on. Players felt that the energy and passion from his first season, which they had responded so well to, had gone.The way Conte confronted Thomas Tuchel in August, which they loved, now felt like a distant memory. In Conte’s first season, the players also appreciated how willing Conte had been to defend them all in public. But when Conte hammered his players at Southampton for being “selfish” and only playing “for themselves”, it brought into the open how broken the relationship was between manager and squad, even if some fans and pundits agreed with the sentiment. Conte knew he was going, but wanted to make sure he got his retaliation in before he was sacked. Most Spurs managers eventually lose the dressing room. Conte ensured that this time the dressing room had lost him first.
NaijaSpurs
Les Ferdinand
I must confess I do not know a lot about his man management style but I agree that it is a major factor that needs to be taken into consideration when the next appointment is being made.
Mr Gogolak
Jason Dozzell
Sounds like guesswork more than anything else but even if it's true, he's got every right to be disappointed. These guys are human beings after all and when things turn sour, 95% of the population's first reaction is to blame everyone else. He seems rather emotional and hot-tempered so I wouldn't put that beyond him but, at the same time, I wouldn't blame him either. I'd be angry too if I felt let down by those around me - regardless of whether they actually did it or not.
alekaras
The ITK of IDK
You're never going to get quotes about things like these, especially since he is still officially the manager. But this article confirmed what I have been saying: first season worked well because he couldn't go full Conte and just provided a general outline with some wiggle room for the players. Surely enough, the players responded and I am sure the fact he stood behind them also played a big role. Second season he went full rigid Conte and, given the results were not coming with his tactics, it's no surprise he lost the players.
What was new to me was that his man management skills are so lacking. I had him pegged as a decent motivator, but I probably confused his abrasive style with motivation.
In any case, good fudging riddance. He could go to City and still complain the club isn't backing him. Overhyped and overpaid clam.
parklane1
Tony Galvin
So as i said there was a lot of speculation that is all, if folks want to make more of that that is down to them.
which players are going to be quoted when he's still at the club and could yet end up staying (doubtful I know)?
You won't get quotes from anyone.
parklane1
Tony Galvin
So it really is just speculation, so why are those who are getting their knickers in a twist about that piece. ( not saying you are)
glasgowspur
Andy Thompson
So basically whatever the manager does, any manager, the players don't like it.
Seems like a bit of a stretch tbh.
thfcsteff
Garth Crooks
I heard about 'chaos' in Nov right before WC break. It isn't always flimflam mate. Sometimes there is plenty of truth.
thfcsteff
Garth Crooks
Frankly, the way he has conducted himself recently says quite enough to me. You coached. Would you ever have blasted your team repeatedly in public without even addressing them first and the jetted off out of the country (or even down to Weston Super Mare for a weekend on the cider?!
)I fully agree. He’s gone down in my estimation big time (he’ll be devastated) and I rated him higher than most.Frankly, the way he has conducted himself recently says quite enough to me. You coached. Would you ever have blasted your team repeatedly in public without even addressing them first and the jetted off out of the country (or even down to Weston Super Mare for a weekend on the cider?!
parklane1
Tony Galvin
Not saying it is always flimflam, but the piece i was talking about has no quotes but a LOT of speculation. imo