Antonio Conte - officially NOT the coach of THFC

[DeanoAustin]

This is where it’ll become clear that my concerns go much deeper than Conte himself so going in to a full scale rant in this thread may seem out of place..

We’re not being reasonably competitive for anything under him as last night showed, but fair enough, the “have patience” line will be a nice and positive reposte to my concerns. If we’re saying what chance could Conte have with this squad then it’s more serious accusations to Levy and Paratici but it’s only another two seasons of mediocrity once the guy’s contract runs out. What transpired with Nuno isn’t Conte’s fault of course, but it does seem like another excuse.

I wouldn’t say I’m calling for the manager’s head if we don’t win something / get top four, I’d just love us to be able to look like we’re in the position to to win something or failing that get in the top four (more win something than get top four as history means more than the financial spreadsheets but again, probably for another thread). My expectation is if we’re playing a defensive system and we give away 3/4 guilt edge chances against Leeds + Middlesbrough each we’re going to struggle. That’s not the weight of previous failures on the new guy imo.

Appreciate my rants especially after another limp, inexcusable cup exit can seem one dimensional but the squad is paper thin and the manager has wilder mood swings then I do (diagnosed bi-polar) and he is getting paid either way and has us over a barrel. I get that nobody is being positive specifically to rile me up, it’s probably much easier to be that way inclined but it’s painful hearing people talk about the second half of a campaign as if it’s a pre season.

“Just wait until the summer window” has a “this time next year we’ll be millionaires Rodney” feel about it, it’s only 5-6 first choice players we need so jobs a dream. However, just wait until the end of next season before making any judgements seems like we’re actively taking the tinkle out of ourselves at this stage.

I see your point. Genuinely I do. I was absolutely fuming last night. Angrier than I've been at a game in a while. Everyone on here could see Boro wanted the game more than us when it was 0-0. Losing I can take but losing like that...fudging pathetic.

And I heard Jamie O'Hara earlier say "I'm just fed up of being a Spurs fan at this point". And, to an extent, I am too. It's beyond frustrating.

But...

While Conte annoyed me with the rants you mentioned, I can't pin much blame on him for performances. He's working with some very, very ordinary players and others who have been here too long and look jaded. They don't suit his brand of football either. His system depends on wing backs. We have fudging Doherty and Emerson on one side and a struggling Sessegnon on the other. The midfield? Jesus Christ. That pair really fudged me off last night. Beyond words. Spineless, cowardly, pedestrian. Bentancour looks good as does Skipp but I think he probably needs even more in there. Throw in a couple of players badly off form last night (Sonny, I'm looking at you) and I can't be too hard on Conte.

It does feel a bit OFAH waiting for the summer but without players that can play a system Conte has used with success over the last 10 years across multiple teams, I really think it's difficult and unfair to judge him too harshly.

 

[harr1984]

I see your point. Genuinely I do. I was absolutely fuming last night. Angrier than I've been at a game in a while. Everyone on here could see Boro wanted the game more than us when it was 0-0. Losing I can take but losing like that...fudging pathetic.

And I heard Jamie O'Hara earlier say "I'm just fed up of being a Spurs fan at this point". And, to an extent, I am too. It's beyond frustrating.

But...

While Conte annoyed me with the rants you mentioned, I can't pin much blame on him for performances. He's working with some very, very ordinary players and others who have been here too long and look jaded. They don't suit his brand of football either. His system depends on wing backs. We have fudging Doherty and Emerson on one side and a struggling Sessegnon on the other. The midfield? Jesus Christ. That pair really fudged me off last night. Beyond words. Spineless, cowardly, pedestrian. Bentancour looks good as does Skipp but I think he probably needs even more in there. Throw in a couple of players badly off form last night (Sonny, I'm looking at you) and I can't be too hard on Conte.

It does feel a bit OFAH waiting for the summer but without players that can play a system Conte has used with success over the last 10 years across multiple teams, I really think it's difficult and unfair to judge him too harshly.

Sorry Deano I agree with the essence of your post but I think you’re letting Conte off lightly here. The players are average and dont suit his brand of football? Well forgive me if I’m wrong but isn’t that something a top coach should be able to sort out? Improve players, and if he doesn’t have the flexibility to change tactics if he hasn’t got the squad currently that suits his favoured formation then that isnt impressive at all. I’m very much pro Conte but it constantly surprises me how previous managers got a hell of a lot more brick and were expected to do more with the players, yet with more changes to the personnel since Conte arrived and the manager consistently is almost always absent of criticism and it always lays at the door of the players now….

 

[braineclipse]

It must feel so good not judging Conte till the end of next season. The high horse of writing off this season and the next without any judgement going any which way. How wonderfully positive! All we need is a “rebuild”. What have I missed? Oh fans that have any expectations are clearly feel overly entitled, how dare we expect to at least feel competitive.

Conte has improved us, made us more competitive. Top 4 looked close to impossible when he took over, the good results under him put us in contention. Poor runs were always likely, but I think we're still in contention.

How do you learn to play in a system when fundamental parts of it are so lacking?

Slowly. You learn more of the system where the parts are there of course.

Attacking right sided wing back is lacking. But we do get the ball to the RWB in good positions through playing this system. At that point slotting in a better attacking RWB goes a long way I think.

 

[glasgowspur]

Conte has improved us, made us more competitive. Top 4 looked close to impossible when he took over, the good results under him put us in contention. Poor runs were always likely, but I think we're still in contention.



Slowly. You learn more of the system where the parts are there of course.

Attacking right sided wing back is lacking. But we do get the ball to the RWB in good positions through playing this system. At that point slotting in a better attacking RWB goes a long way I think.

He's prepping the players he's keeping to play the system he wants, then when he has all the components he takes the duff one out and slots in the new one and we're good to go.
It's also becoming glaringly obvious who isn't up to it.
There's a hint of wax on, wax off to it all.

 

[braineclipse]

He's prepping the players he's keeping to play the system he wants, then when he has all the components he takes the duff one out and slots in the new one and we're good to go.
It's also becoming glaringly obvious who isn't up to it.
There's a hint of wax on, wax off to it all.

Hope you're right and that we get the required transfer business done in the summer.

 

[glasgowspur]

Hope you're right and that we get the required transfer business done in the summer.

That of course is another issue.
I'm dreading the summer, it could be carnage on here.
We won't spend huge, it will be specific targeted signings for first team places. it won't all be done in one window, or the glare of the media spotlight.
Some more will need to be jettisoned or side lined if we can't move them on.
Then there's the harry issue to boot.
I might take a break in the summer .

 

[braineclipse]

That of course is another issue.
I'm dreading the summer, it could be carnage on here.
We won't spend huge, it will be specific targeted signings for first team places. it won't all be done in one window, or the glare of the media spotlight.
Some more will need to be jettisoned or side lined if we can't move them on.
Then there's the harry issue to boot.
I might take a break in the summer .

Really happy we have both Paratici and Conte in place and now familiar with the squad. Not going into the summer mid transition and uncertainty on that front should help us.

I agree though. The summer may get chaotic and frustrating.

 

[Dicko]

Hope jordan is back on talksport tomorrow. See what he thinks of chelsea, everton etc... the rest are just idiots apart from danny murphy. Woods is good to look at though.

Yep, Murphy is the only decent co-host. Keown and Sinclair are so biased there is no point in them even being asked their opinions on anything.

 

[MKSpur]

That of course is another issue.
I'm dreading the summer, it could be carnage on here.
We won't spend huge, it will be specific targeted signings for first team places. it won't all be done in one window, or the glare of the media spotlight.
Some more will need to be jettisoned or side lined if we can't move them on.
Then there's the harry issue to boot.
I might take a break in the summer .

How do you take a break, the most I’ve managed is muting a Spurs group for 13 hours on Jan 31st!!!

 

[Legohamster]

Bergwijn is the obvious one. Could have started instead of Kulusevski for Leeds and Son for Boro.

Taking off a key player or two earlier wherry 3-0 up against Leeds was also an option.

Less obvious options also exist like either moving Dier or Romero to midfield. Or
playing a midfield three including White. Particularly for a FA cup game against a Championship team.

Clear potential downsides to those less obvious options of course. Perhaps that would be even worse. May be that Conte was spot on. But this is a predictable outcome of close to zero rotation.

I guess the "gamble" was that we would "kill them early" before our players faded. That's always a fairly low probability outcome. With our backup plan being that players somehow wouldn't tire or that we could nick a win or hang on for penalties?

I would heve preferred the "gamble" of one of the less obvious options.

I don’t disagree about the rotation, but how much difference would the handful of changes of made, seemingly the whole team was shattered?

Given the showing of Winks, I’m not sure White could have done much worse.

GHod. It’s a mess.

 

[DeanoAustin]

Sorry Deano I agree with the essence of your post but I think you’re letting Conte off lightly here. The players are average and dont suit his brand of football? Well forgive me if I’m wrong but isn’t that something a top coach should be able to sort out? Improve players, and if he doesn’t have the flexibility to change tactics if he hasn’t got the squad currently that suits his favoured formation then that isnt impressive at all. I’m very much pro Conte but it constantly surprises me how previous managers got a hell of a lot more brick and were expected to do more with the players, yet with more changes to the personnel since Conte arrived and the manager consistently is almost always absent of criticism and it always lays at the door of the players now….

It's a fair argument and maybe I am letting him off lightly. Where I'm coming from is, thinking about the best managers over the last 20 years:

1. Klopp: Stuck fairly rigidly to the high press even when they were leaking goals for fun and had a tinkle poor defence.
2. Pep: Came in and put focus on playing out from the back. Had some ropey keepers and defenders and he was being questioned big time in his first season. He didn't change his style.
3. Jose: Has always put the emphasis on defence and, if anything, become even more entrenched in that over the years.
4. Wenger: Was stubborn with his style to the point that it undid his reign at Arsenal as they slid from contenders to pretenders to also rans by the end.

Do coaches ever really adapt their style and beliefs?

 

[MKSpur]

Our progress at the moment is up and down, I was as disappointed as anyone with the Borough game but let’s be honest we’ve seen it happen before and better teams than us have struggled against lower league teams recently. Our pampered Prem players aren’t used to not getting free kicks for being touched.
There’s no quick fix and a manager can only add 10-20% to a team by drilling them into a system, coaching players to improve physicality and decision making and improving their mentality through man management. Over time replacing unsuitable or low quality ones with more suitable players through working with a DoF within the clubs constraints will help, some managers are better at this than the coaching side and vice versa. The new manager bounce or rapid improvement can come if a team has been woefully under coached, the improvement takes them back to par but due to sinking lower feels a lot better at that point in time rather than just performing at the same levels consistently.
It’s fair to question some of Conte’s decisions, but he’s not had a pre season or summer window to really put his stamp on the team. On the plus side we are having multiple shots on goal, a staple that became a luxury under previous regimes. We’ve got a couple of key players missing, one of whom he’s brought in. You can make your own mind up what is par for the club, but with the current squad I think 4th would be an over achievement, 5th probably wouldn’t be regarded as any different to 6th apart for some potential bragging rights and 7th would be a little disappointing given we have brought players in since last season.

No one ever wants to write off a season, and there’s so many games to go 4th is still possible. If the issue is consistency then unfortunately patience and some summer signings would be my causes for optimism. Just need to see progress and honesty those last few games under Nuno and Mourinho were beyond turgid. I feel like we’ve missed more chances under Conte whereas under the prepaid managers we seemed to score with the only shot we had!

 

[Bedfordspurs]

It's a fair argument and maybe I am letting him off lightly. Where I'm coming from is, thinking about the best managers over the last 20 years:

1. Klopp: Stuck fairly rigidly to the high press even when they were leaking goals for fun and had a tinkle poor defence.
2. Pep: Came in and put focus on playing out from the back. Had some ropey keepers and defenders and he was being questioned big time in his first season. He didn't change his style.
3. Jose: Has always put the emphasis on defence and, if anything, become even more entrenched in that over the years.
4. Wenger: Was stubborn with his style to the point that it undid his reign at Arsenal as they slid from contenders to pretenders to also rans by the end.

Do coaches ever really adapt their style and beliefs?

But…
Klopp had time as the fans were more patient and he was committed long term
He also wasn’t as proven as conte
Pep… money object can buy what he wanted and not okay who he didn’t.
Jose… Similar me MO to Pep really when he was peak
Wenger.. revolutionised a lot of the game. Didn’t move with the times though and spent too long at one club

 

[MKSpur]

It's a fair argument and maybe I am letting him off lightly. Where I'm coming from is, thinking about the best managers over the last 20 years:

1. Klopp: Stuck fairly rigidly to the high press even when they were leaking goals for fun and had a tinkle poor defence.
2. Pep: Came in and put focus on playing out from the back. Had some ropey keepers and defenders and he was being questioned big time in his first season. He didn't change his style.
3. Jose: Has always put the emphasis on defence and, if anything, become even more entrenched in that over the years.
4. Wenger: Was stubborn with his style to the point that it undid his reign at Arsenal as they slid from contenders to pretenders to also rans by the end.

Do coaches ever really adapt their style and beliefs?

I always thought Wenger changed his style a bit to imitate Barcelona, he and the blue print with petit and viera in midfield but never really signed Centre mids with that same physical quality. Seemed to keep buying the same 5ft 7 technician not unlike Pep.
Maybe Poch as he tried to evolve our team too? I think sometimes managers adapt based on the players they have but if you want a drilled system it must be difficult to introduce something completely different, especially mid season?

 

[Lilbaz]

Sorry Deano I agree with the essence of your post but I think you’re letting Conte off lightly here. The players are average and dont suit his brand of football? Well forgive me if I’m wrong but isn’t that something a top coach should be able to sort out? Improve players, and if he doesn’t have the flexibility to change tactics if he hasn’t got the squad currently that suits his favoured formation then that isnt impressive at all. I’m very much pro Conte but it constantly surprises me how previous managers got a hell of a lot more brick and were expected to do more with the players, yet with more changes to the personnel since Conte arrived and the manager consistently is almost always absent of criticism and it always lays at the door of the players now….

What changes to the personnel? Kulu in and bentancur (who's injured)? How many out? It's a rebuild. He's only had a chance to patch.

What is giving him brick going to achieve? He's one of the best managers in the world. Have patience. We probably won't get top 4 this season. At the beginning of the season did you expect us to? I sure didn't. So what have we lost? Let him have a summer window to bring in players then see if we improve next season.

 

[Finney Is Back]

I see your point. Genuinely I do. I was absolutely fuming last night. Angrier than I've been at a game in a while. Everyone on here could see Boro wanted the game more than us when it was 0-0. Losing I can take but losing like that...fudging pathetic.

And I heard Jamie O'Hara earlier say "I'm just fed up of being a Spurs fan at this point". And, to an extent, I am too. It's beyond frustrating.

But...

While Conte annoyed me with the rants you mentioned, I can't pin much blame on him for performances. He's working with some very, very ordinary players and others who have been here too long and look jaded. They don't suit his brand of football either. His system depends on wing backs. We have fudging Doherty and Emerson on one side and a struggling Sessegnon on the other. The midfield? Jesus Christ. That pair really fudged me off last night. Beyond words. Spineless, cowardly, pedestrian. Bentancour looks good as does Skipp but I think he probably needs even more in there. Throw in a couple of players badly off form last night (Sonny, I'm looking at you) and I can't be too hard on Conte.

It does feel a bit OFAH waiting for the summer but without players that can play a system Conte has used with success over the last 10 years across multiple teams, I really think it's difficult and unfair to judge him too harshly.

I thought Sessegnon played pretty well. I thought Doherty was alright as well.

 

[Finney Is Back]

What changes to the personnel? Kulu in and bentancur (who's injured)? How many out? It's a rebuild. He's only had a chance to patch.

What is giving him brick going to achieve? He's one of the best managers in the world. Have patience. We probably won't get top 4 this season. At the beginning of the season did you expect us to? I sure didn't. So what have we lost? Let him have a summer window to bring in players then see if we improve next season.

I thought we'd finish 7th at the end of the transfer window. That's still where I think we'll finish. That's one place below where we *should* finish.

With a good summer we *should* be able to get ourselves back above West Ham again next season and it is possible to get ourselves above Arsenal depending on whether or not they have a good summer transfer window themselves (their owner pumped in some of his own money last year to make them competitive again).

 

[harr1984]

It's a fair argument and maybe I am letting him off lightly. Where I'm coming from is, thinking about the best managers over the last 20 years:

1. Klopp: Stuck fairly rigidly to the high press even when they were leaking goals for fun and had a tinkle poor defence.
2. Pep: Came in and put focus on playing out from the back. Had some ropey keepers and defenders and he was being questioned big time in his first season. He didn't change his style.
3. Jose: Has always put the emphasis on defence and, if anything, become even more entrenched in that over the years.
4. Wenger: Was stubborn with his style to the point that it undid his reign at Arsenal as they slid from contenders to pretenders to also rans by the end.

Do coaches ever really adapt their style and beliefs?

I’d completely get him sticking to the formation if he had had the pre season etc and he had bought in some players that he wanted suitable to his style - but he came in with the season already underway and had to deal with the hand he had been dealt. Personally (and who the fudge am I to tell Conte what he should do) I would have setup the players how best suit the current squad. Then either once it is late season and is clear we aren’t winning anything or achieving top 4, perhaps start putting out his preferred formation so players he sees a future here can get used to. Or we do achieve our objectives and he can work with his preferred shape and hopefully his preferred players for pre season etc. I don’t think it’s asking too much for a top coach to have a little flexibility when there are clear and obvious flaws to his preferred system with some of the current players. If I thought Conte was in it for the long term like Klopp etc then it wouldn’t really bother me, but I don’t think anyone is convinced he is right now

What changes to the personnel? Kulu in and bentancur (who's injured)? How many out? It's a rebuild. He's only had a chance to patch.

What is giving him brick going to achieve? He's one of the best managers in the world. Have patience. We probably won't get top 4 this season. At the beginning of the season did you expect us to? I sure didn't. So what have we lost? Let him have a summer window to bring in players then see if we improve next season.

I’m not suggesting giving him brick, far from it. But apparent lesser managers got in in bucket loads here, we are 7th currently albeit with a game or two in hand but we are around par at best and it always seems to get deflected to Levy no matter what tactics or performances are put in under Conte, when his predecessors didn’t get such luxuries….

 

[DeanoAustin]

I thought Sessegnon played pretty well. I thought Doherty was alright as well.

Yeah I thought Doherty was very good first half and didn't really understand his substitution. Sessegnon was decent first half. I guess I'm making the general point on them rather than specifically the Boro game. They've been here 2 and 3 years and produced a handful of good performances between them and we're expecting Conte, who relies so heavily on wing backs, to fashion a winning team with them in it.

I dunno, I'm fudged off with the whole thing. Like O'Hara said, I'm fed up being a Spurs fan right now. Bring manager in, expect him to overachieve with what he has, watch it turn sour, fire him. Rinse and repeat. And I've been on some of those bandwagons. I wanted Nuno and Jose out. By the end, I was even tinkled off at Poch (primarily because of the stuff he was saying rather than results). I guess I'm thinking we've got to do something different. We've now hired one of the best - let's give him the tools to do the job rather than question him when results don't go our way despite the fact he's working with some very ordinary and jaded players. If we give him the tools and he still fails...Christ, I'm out of ideas.

 

[spurspinter1]

@90291Spur + @DeanoAustin

I do truly appreciate your response to what may have seemed like an almost adolescent rant on my part but I feel like if I get in to it on a point by point basis there’s no real positive outcome, just more of a futility at which the question of the purpose of being a true supporter comes in to question more than than anything else. Like all of us on here I hope that things go well, that was correct at the start of this season as it is now but doesn’t change anything, and never will.

Top four is what we have left to aim for, for better or worse and somehow looking at the table it’s still a possibility so at least thereMs a potential silver lining.