Ange in or out?

[Raziel]

I am not sure anyone would not want us to win the EL who ever is in charge. That would be a tremendous achievement and it's a no brainer that Ange should then get more time.

If we don't win the EL, the decision is more problematic for me. Ange, IMHO, hasn't shown yet that he can win the big games and that's really important for this team's development. Aside from City, (and they of course are having a poor season by their standards) and Villa, we have lost to every other team in the top 10. Not even drawn - lost. It's an awful record. Villa were the outlier result IMHO in that they were doing reasonably well when we beat them.

If Ange can achieve results in games which we might not be expected to win showing he can manage those big games then he should be given more time even if he doesn't win the EL.

If he doesn't win, I think the decision is a lot clearer

- 9th -12th with a >45% loss rate isn't acceptable for a Spurs manager in 2nd season regardless of circumstance/context
- One semi in a domestic cup doesn't change anything

I'd assume he's out in that scenario

The complex scenario is

- He does win the EL
- We only improve our league position to 8th-10th

In both scenarios it would be a tough call but I think logic says he goes (the narrative/fan stupidity associated with firing the manager who actually wins us something will be a dumpster fire)

The scenario where he stays is

- He wins the EL
- We go on a decent run in PL and get back to 6th/7th.

The big risk is we keep him (in either of the first two scenarios), and the first 10 games of next season the wheels come off and we are scrambling for a replacement (the ETH scenario) and said replacement hasn't had a shot to influence transfer window.

 

[ricky2tricky4city]

If he doesn't win, I think the decision is a lot clearer

- 9th -12th with a >45% loss rate isn't acceptable for a Spurs manager in 2nd season regardless of circumstance/context
- One semi in a domestic cup doesn't change anything

I'd assume he's out in that scenario

The complex scenario is

- He does win the EL
- We only improve our league position to 8th-10th

In both scenarios it would be a tough call but I think logic says he goes (the narrative/fan stupidity associated with firing the manager who actually wins us something will be a dumpster fire)

The scenario where he stays is

- He wins the EL
- We go on a decent run in PL and get back to 6th/7th.

The big risk is we keep him (in either of the first two scenarios), and the first 10 games of next season the wheels come off and we are scrambling for a replacement (the ETH scenario) and said replacement hasn't had a shot to influence transfer window.

I agree with your last paragraph...most sensible manager changing goes on in the summer for largely obvious reasons.

Where we finish in the league could be quite fine margins on points. ie it could be 2/3 pts between a 6/7 - 8/9 finish...so in the case of winning the EL id rather judge the league finish mainly on data and the eye test than finishing position.

 

[Muttley]

I agree with your last paragraph...most sensible manager changing goes on in the summer for largely obvious reasons.

Where we finish in the league could be quite fine margins on points. ie it could be 2/3 pts between a 6/7 - 8/9 finish...so in the case of winning the EL id rather judge the league finish mainly on data and the eye test than finishing position.

I think if we see what happened in the league to Poch in Mar-May 2019, then it will be curtains for Ange. No problem with a full on assault on the EL, but we have to perform in the league as well. It won't be easy as that would be 7 midweek games in EL, plus a couple of league games. That's 9 weeks of the 13 left where it's 2 games a week.

I completely agree on the eye test though. I felt the first time we had a squad again was the Utd game. Might be worth applying common sense from then. 2 out of 2 so far.

 

[glasgowspur]

Ideal scenario for me is we win the EL and ange leaves on a high note along with sonny who finally gets to lift a trophy with spurs, especially sweet as captain.
Both get to leave with their heads held high for "different challenges", and we bring Poch.

We can but dream.

 

[Gutter Boy]

Ideal scenario for me is we win the EL and ange leaves on a high note along with sonny who finally gets to lift a trophy with spurs, especially sweet as captain.
Both get to leave with their heads held high for "different challenges", and we bring Poch.

We can but dream.

Sold

 

[Gutter Boy]

Ideal scenario for me is we win the EL and ange leaves on a high note along with sonny who finally gets to lift a trophy with spurs, especially sweet as captain.
Both get to leave with their heads held high for "different challenges", and we bring Poch.

We can but dream.

Although maybe hard to maintain the new challenge narrative when his next job ends up being Raith Rovers

 

[SteveAWOL]

My previously expressed concern about our defensive structure remains. As the injury crisis eases, it was noticeable that we are back to the two at the back, full backs up the field formation. It continues to give our opponent great opportunities when we lose the ball. Ipswich had great chances yesterday and we seem to rely on our opponents missing gilt edged opportunities. I do not see how that is a template to win a title. Ironically, one has to wonder if we would be more defensively secure if Ange stuck with keeping the full backs deeper as he was recently forced to do. But that is not who we are, mate!

The fact that we conceded more shots to Ipswich than they managed in their previous home game to Southampton is slightly concerning.

Guess we’ll see in the upcoming weeks whether teams with more ruthless attackers shall take advantage of those opportunities or whether our near full strength bench will see us press opponents with such ferocity they don’t even get a chance to pass the ball into our third of the pitch.

 

[SteveAWOL]

The CWC was abolished about ten years prior to the 'first' Europa League. So not a merging of both.

In fact Uefa list all Europa and Uefa winners on the same page so the organisers clearly view it as the same competition and you'll see us on the list of winners there twice already.

Not that it matters.

Finals | History | UEFA Europa League

View the official UEFA Europa League winners list at UEFA.com. Find out which teams have lifted the most trophies since the competition began.

www.uefa.com

Nice of UEFA to do their bit for the environment by recycling the trophy.

 

[thfcsteff]

If we have players that need their minutes managed then the focus around the Europa ties should be to ensure we can field our strongest XI in those matches with league games being the games where the players are rotated out/subbed early/whatever.

One silver lining to having a poor domestic season is that we can give Europe our full focus - potentially this gives us our best opportunity to win the Europa compared to our previous seasons in it when qualifying for the CL was probably a higher priority at the time.

An excellent point. We may never have the 'free hit' we inadvertently have this season again.

 

[braineclipse]

If we have players that need their minutes managed then the focus around the Europa ties should be to ensure we can field our strongest XI in those matches with league games being the games where the players are rotated out/subbed early/whatever.

One silver lining to having a poor domestic season is that we can give Europe our full focus - potentially this gives us our best opportunity to win the Europa compared to our previous seasons in it when qualifying for the CL was probably a higher priority at the time.

Absolutely.

And assuming we avoid another injury crisis we have quite a few players good enough and deserving of those extra minutes in the league.

Not saying we should play an A and B team, but some rotation and making the EL games a priority.

 

[braineclipse]

If he doesn't win, I think the decision is a lot clearer

- 9th -12th with a >45% loss rate isn't acceptable for a Spurs manager in 2nd season regardless of circumstance/context
- One semi in a domestic cup doesn't change anything

I'd assume he's out in that scenario

The complex scenario is

- He does win the EL
- We only improve our league position to 8th-10th

In both scenarios it would be a tough call but I think logic says he goes (the narrative/fan stupidity associated with firing the manager who actually wins us something will be a dumpster fire)

The scenario where he stays is

- He wins the EL
- We go on a decent run in PL and get back to 6th/7th.

The big risk is we keep him (in either of the first two scenarios), and the first 10 games of next season the wheels come off and we are scrambling for a replacement (the ETH scenario) and said replacement hasn't had a shot to influence transfer window.

For me winning or not winning a trophy doesn't say much about a manager's ability or suitability to a job. Of course it says something, but there's so much luck/variance in a cup competition. Getting close, doing well in the league over time says about as much for me.

Though I also think a manager being "successful" or not is most of the time more dependent on circumstances and fit than the "quality" of the manager (with some exceptions).

Winning the EL, with that getting CL football, ending the trophyless spell, I think that would change the circumstances for Ange significantly. Would be really tempted to say keep him even with an underwhelming end to the league season.

 

[glasgowspur]

Although maybe hard to maintain the new challenge narrative when his next job ends up being Raith Rovers

Or rangers, now that would be fun.

 

[Muttley]

For me winning or not winning a trophy doesn't say much about a manager's ability or suitability to a job. Of course it says something, but there's so much luck/variance in a cup competition. Getting close, doing well in the league over time says about as much for me.

Though I also think a manager being "successful" or not is most of the time more dependent on circumstances and fit than the "quality" of the manager (with some exceptions).

Winning the EL, with that getting CL football, ending the trophyless spell, I think that would change the circumstances for Ange significantly. Would be really tempted to say keep him even with an underwhelming end to the league season.

More than winning the competition, Ange's acid test is how he equips himself as the opposition gets better through the next 4 stages. My feeling is if he only makes these small deviations from his Plan A setup, then he'll probably come undone at some point. That will be an important data point in his overall assessment. Conversely, if he navigates through and picks up a trophy he would have shown us the versatility we've sometimes called him out for.

I'm with you, winning would be fantastic but it's not the be all and end all for Ange's tenure.

I'm intrigued to see how Ange's system performs against Pep, Iraola and Silva in the next 3 league games with the 2 AZ games sandwiched between. This is what being a fan is all about. Fun times ahead.

 

[braineclipse]

More than winning the competition, Ange's acid test is how he equips himself as the opposition gets better through the next 4 stages. My feeling is if he only makes these small deviations from his Plan A setup, then he'll probably come undone at some point. That will be an important data point in his overall assessment. Conversely, if he navigates through and picks up a trophy he would have shown us the versatility we've sometimes called him out for.

I'm with you, winning would be fantastic but it's not the be all and end all for Ange's tenure.

I'm intrigued to see how Ange's system performs against Pep, Iraola and Silva in the next 3 league games with the 2 AZ games sandwiched between. This is what being a fan is all about. Fun times ahead.

At this stage the odds are that he'll come undone at some point regardless of what he does. There's nothing he or anyone could do that would make the likelihood of winning the thing higher than the likelihood of not at this point.

I want him to keep doing what he believes in and if that is "small deviations from plan A" that's what he should do.

Not against negativing through, but for him and this project that's probably only going to be a phases of games thing. As he's shown himself willing to before, repeatedly.

 

[Finney Is Back]

Outside of a consistency we have never shown under Ange, the league is functionally dead.

Win Europa and finish 12th is a good season (trophy and back in CL)

Don't win Europa and finish 9th is a fudging disaster

It's actually a unique position for us in probably 2 decades, your son is correct, the cup should 100% be our priority from here on in.

Lol - it would be a great season. It would be the best season we've had under ENIC ownership by a considerable margin.

 

[Finney Is Back]

If he doesn't win, I think the decision is a lot clearer

- 9th -12th with a >45% loss rate isn't acceptable for a Spurs manager in 2nd season regardless of circumstance/context
- One semi in a domestic cup doesn't change anything

I'd assume he's out in that scenario

The complex scenario is

- He does win the EL
- We only improve our league position to 8th-10th

In both scenarios it would be a tough call but I think logic says he goes (the narrative/fan stupidity associated with firing the manager who actually wins us something will be a dumpster fire)

The scenario where he stays is

- He wins the EL
- We go on a decent run in PL and get back to 6th/7th.

The big risk is we keep him (in either of the first two scenarios), and the first 10 games of next season the wheels come off and we are scrambling for a replacement (the ETH scenario) and said replacement hasn't had a shot to influence transfer window.

Behave!.... He would be the most successful manager at Spurs that Levy has ever been lucky enough to appoint.

If Spurs win the Europa League this season then logic says he stays. To consider anything else is ridiculous.

 

[harr1984]

Behave!.... He would be the most successful manager at Spurs that Levy has ever been lucky enough to appoint.

If Spurs win the Europa League this season then logic says he stays. To consider anything else is ridiculous.

I think, but might be wrong its a typo and should be 'Doesn't win the EL' but finish 8th-10th as @Raziel states it is a 'complex scenario'. I can't imagine winning the EL and finishing 8th/10th there's even a discussion to be had, but with our fans who knows ....

 

[Finney Is Back]

I think, but might be wrong its a typo and should be 'Doesn't win the EL' but finish 8th-10th as @Raziel states it is a 'complex scenario'. I can't imagine winning the EL and finishing 8th/10th there's even a discussion to be had, but with our fans who knows ....

I honestly think that some have made up their minds and now just want to be proven right come what may. Seems to me that there are actually a few on here who get annoyed when we win a match and go into games wanting us to lose. Very strange!

 

[Raziel]

Behave!.... He would be the most successful manager at Spurs that Levy has ever been lucky enough to appoint.

If Spurs win the Europa League this season then logic says he stays. To consider anything else is ridiculous.

And the 2nd most was Ramos by that measurement.

This is exactly the ETH scenario at United, a manager stumbling down the league for 18 months wins a cup, you keep, spend money to buy players specific to that manager and what do you get? your worse season in PL era, a handicapped new manger and a club in a death spiral.

I honestly think that some have made up their minds and now just want to be proven right come what may. Seems to me that there are actually a few on here who get annoyed when we win a match and go into games wanting us to lose. Very strange!

No one wants us to lose, but yes, some have probably made up their minds based on what they have seen on the 2nd half of last season until now, i.e. a style of football that can't seem to find consistency and control to produce even the expected level results for this squad.

If the choice was on me right now, I know what logic says, if Ange wins EL and puts together a good run of wins (and better games) in league till the end of season, he could change my mind.

 

[johnola]

It is up to the Club what happens and quite frankly it seems to me they have built up quite a lot of faith and trust in him.

Also I’ve just read the Patrick O’Brian series with Captain Aubrey who made the point that there is little like a howling storm at sea to bring the crew together.

I think we will be class next season under Ange and I would be surprised if we don’t get to find out.