Ange in or out?

[thfcsteff]

if there is a tottenham fan who is confident we can win the europa league with this clown in charge, I would love a bit of what he or she have been drinking

If there is a Tottenham fan who would rather remain unconfident of winning the europa league because they do not like the manager, then best they keep whatever misery-juice they're drinking away from me...

 

[thfcsteff]

if we win it( which i feel isextremly unlikely whilst we have this manager in charge ) it will go down in the records as a third win for us so your statement is incorrect.

It will go down as having won the Europa League.
We are marked as having won the UEFA Cup twice.
We are marked as having won the European Cup Winners Cup once.
The Europa League is what resulted from merging the European (renamed UEFA in 1994) Cup Winners Cup and the UEFA Cup together.
The Europa League is thus NOT the same as the UEFA Cup. I know some clubs list the Europa as the same 'rebranded' trophy, but it simply isn't.

just because the format has changed doesn’t mean it’s a completion we have never won.

If aston villa somehow win the champions league this season it will go down as a second win for them.

The Champions League is a reimagined European Cup. One trophy.

Brazil, Germany and Italy have won world cups under different formats.

...different format of the same single tournament...

The only thing i would agree with is if Postecoglu did win the Europa league he would be a legend.
however it is extremly unlikely given the evidence of what we have seen in his time in charge that he has the competency to do so.

 

[billyiddo]

The CWC was abolished about ten years prior to the 'first' Europa League. So not a merging of both.

In fact Uefa list all Europa and Uefa winners on the same page so the organisers clearly view it as the same competition and you'll see us on the list of winners there twice already.

Not that it matters.

Finals | History | UEFA Europa League

View the official UEFA Europa League winners list at UEFA.com. Find out which teams have lifted the most trophies since the competition began.

www.uefa.com

 

[braineclipse]

It is very, very clear that a lot of work is going on behind the scenes to ensure we manage health and recovery even better.

As for the line highlit above...since we have had a few players return, we have won our three Prem games in that phase, scoring 7 goals and conceding 1. We still have no VdV, Romero, Solanke or Richarlison. Add Davies to the list of semi-regulars missing, and we won't count Werner. He has absolutely adapted as best he could, he has used as many of the squad as you could reasonably expect, and he has integrated very well when given the chance (VdV and Romero have been the two which someone did not).

We have only lost by more than one goal on one occasion in the Prem this season. We are 'mid-table' in goals conceded, with teams like Villa and Brighton having conceded more (City have conceded one goal less). Despite our bricky situation, we remain the team which has scored the second most goals in the Prem behind Liverpool. Ironically, one goal more than Emirates Marketing Project!

I have concluded that people's opinions on Postecoglu are based on personal feelings and are not necessarily statistically supported beyond a similar situation with many other teams.

We've imo gotten less defensively vulnerable with a bit of a break and some players returning. Still too vulnerable compared to what should be expected in "normal" circumstances. But the circumstances still aren't quite back to "normal".

No doubt the system that's gotten us scoring that much despite having massive injury problems for around half the season so far means that we'll be more vulnerable defensively than with a more conservative approach.

To me there has to be a "tipping point" there. A point where the overall strategy is good because the increased number of goals makes up for the increased defensive vulnerability. Either through scoring even more or through being less vulnerable defensively.

Personally I don't think we've been quite there in our recent games, but moving in that direction. And a couple of key players back (Romero, VdV, Solanke) may mean reaching that, or imo being back to that.

 

[thfcsteff]

The CWC was abolished about ten years prior to the 'first' Europa League. So not a merging of both.

In fact Uefa list all Europa and Uefa winners on the same page so the organisers clearly view it as the same competition and you'll see us on the list of winners there twice already.

Not that it matters.

Finals | History | UEFA Europa League

View the official UEFA Europa League winners list at UEFA.com. Find out which teams have lifted the most trophies since the competition began.

www.uefa.com

I think it matters, and appreciate the correction on Uefa Cup/Europa League being viewed as the same.

The Cup Winners Cup was merged with the UEFA Cup in 1998/99 (when the tournament underwent an initial shift into an extra qualifying round and those 24 who dropped out from the then 'fresh' Champions League). Uefa refer to the CWC as having been 'discontinued' but note that the domestic cup winners from all leagues (the main criteria for getting into the old Cup Winners Cup of course) instead went into the reformatted Uefa Cup at that time. So it was essentially swallowed/merged by ther Uefa Cup. Where I have been inaccurate is that this happened with the old Uefa Cup which then became the Europa League, but given that they are both considered the same thing, well, the Cup Winners Cup was integrated into 'that' tournament, let's just leave it at that.

I think it's incredible that the tournaments are considered the same given how hugely different the Uefa Cup we won twice was from the current Europa League, but I stand corrected on the point of how both are considered the same trophy as Uefa certainly do appear to want it seen that way.

 

[thfcsteff]

We've imo gotten less defensively vulnerable with a bit of a break and some players returning. Still too vulnerable compared to what should be expected in "normal" circumstances. But the circumstances still aren't quite back to "normal".

No doubt the system that's gotten us scoring that much despite having massive injury problems for around half the season so far means that we'll be more vulnerable defensively than with a more conservative approach.

To me there has to be a "tipping point" there. A point where the overall strategy is good because the increased number of goals makes up for the increased defensive vulnerability. Either through scoring even more or through being less vulnerable defensively.

Personally I don't think we've been quite there in our recent games, but moving in that direction. And a couple of key players back (Romero, VdV, Solanke) may mean reaching that, or imo being back to that.

Indeed...TBH, at this moment in time, I am somewhat stunned that people are still finding all sorts of things to complain about given our last three Premier League games. I think it's pretty obvious that we are not going to be paragons of perfection at this time, but some of the criticisms I have read during these recent performances continue to suggest to me that some people simply do not like the manager and want him gone whatever is happening. Which is fine. I just wish there was more transparency in discussion...

 

[braineclipse]

Indeed...TBH, at this moment in time, I am somewhat stunned that people are still finding all sorts of things to complain about given our last three Premier League games. I think it's pretty obvious that we are not going to be paragons of perfection at this time, but some of the criticisms I have read during these recent performances continue to suggest to me that some people simply do not like the manager and want him gone whatever is happening. Which is fine. I just wish there was more transparency in discussion...

To be fair to those who are critical of him or clearly Ange out I think the pressure is very much on him. 3 wins in a row in the league, I think we've been the better team in all three, but not always by much. The pressure is still on in terms of results and we (imo) need to see further improvements on the performances.

I think we've improved about as much as could be expected with a couple of weeks with no midweek games and some players returning. Hoping we continue to see what I would see as "expected" improvement.

 

[thfcsteff]

To be fair to those who are critical of him or clearly Ange out I think the pressure is very much on him. 3 wins in a row in the league, I think we've been the better team in all three, but not always by much. The pressure is still on in terms of results and we (imo) need to see further improvements on the performances.

I think we've improved about as much as could be expected with a couple of weeks with no midweek games and some players returning. Hoping we continue to see what I would see as "expected" improvement.

Of course the pressure is on him full-stop now, frankly I'd say until he is no longer with us.

Of course there need to be improvements in performances. I don't think anyone (least of all him or the players) would deny it. But when the improvements we're seeing are either not being acknowledged or are only getting negligible notice versus the same complaints, well, it's an issue for me.
Still, unimportant really...

 

[Silly McSilly Face]

Should we win the EL then as the first manager to win us a trophy in what feels like forever and get us CL in the same season then it's difficult to see how when can sack him.
I'm not sure he can turn some of the fans around, so there will be discontent going into the new season, too many have nailed their colours to the mast and will not change their mind. It never takes much at spurs for that to spiral.

Fans can change. I'm not convinced by Ange at all but if he wins the EL he deserves a shot at next season. If he does much better in the league and we do not have another injury problem then I will change my mind...

 

[braineclipse]

Of course the pressure is on him full-stop now, frankly I'd say until he is no longer with us.

Of course there need to be improvements in performances. I don't think anyone (least of all him or the players) would deny it. But when the improvements we're seeing are either not being acknowledged or are only getting negligible notice versus the same complaints, well, it's an issue for me.
Still, unimportant really...

I agree the points I made are rather obvious, to anyone still "Ange in".

I also think another fairly obvious point is that we need to see an improvement on our consistency from before the injury problems got bad. And not getting another massive injury crisis anytime soon.

 

[Benny_Lad]

There’s some strange stuff in this thread.

I’m getting the sense that some would rather not win the EL, than win it, and have the celebrations, the CL qualification, but have to cheer on Ange and have him for another season. That’s a sorry place to be and I suggest you go and support your local team instead.

I see many saying other managers could have done better this season with the same resources. We literally had Conte and Mourinho who were only managed fringe top 4 with prime Kane and Son.

That brings me to my last point. I think other managers probably could have kept us competitive this season in the same circumstances, but we still would have only been somewhere between 6th-10th with the injuries we’ve had and the ‘project’ type squad we have.

But….I wonder if Ange might have a bigger ceiling than other managers once he has a fit squad….like Poch did….per my above point - we saw what Jose and Conte (only) managed with a better team. Ange has already pretty much matched that last season with no Kane.

He’s made some strange decisions and clearly lacks a tactical back up plan but there are some crazy opinions on here.

To summarise - some seem to want to sack him….to get another manager in to fight for 5th….so we can then qualify for a tounament that they don’t want or win this season

 

[Jurgen the German]

So you were expecting me to respond to something else when you said “we regularly conceded 3 and 4 goals”?

To concede 3 or more goals on 7 occasions is quite a lot no? Would you expect the top teams in the league to concede that many goals?

 

[Jurgen the German]

What a presumption! How on earth can you state what people 'make deals' out of or don't? I personally could not give a toss how many we concede in a game as long as we score more! That's my preference. I understand it isn't everybody's but trust me, if we are playing football in the style I personally want to see, I'll take the high concession as long as we get it right at the other end of the pitch!

We haven't win the league since 1961/62.

11 Prem title winners have conceded 35 or more goals.

Steff teams generally don’t win the league conceding as many goals as we do, it’s was Liverpool’s undoing the year Brendan Rodgers got them close.

 

[Jurgen the German]

It is very, very clear that a lot of work is going on behind the scenes to ensure we manage health and recovery even better.

As for the line highlit above...since we have had a few players return, we have won our three Prem games in that phase, scoring 7 goals and conceding 1. We still have no VdV, Romero, Solanke or Richarlison. Add Davies to the list of semi-regulars missing, and we won't count Werner. He has absolutely adapted as best he could, he has used as many of the squad as you could reasonably expect, and he has integrated very well when given the chance (VdV and Romero have been the two which someone did not).

We have only lost by more than one goal on one occasion in the Prem this season. We are 'mid-table' in goals conceded, with teams like Villa and Brighton having conceded more (City have conceded one goal less). Despite our bricky situation, we remain the team which has scored the second most goals in the Prem behind Liverpool. Ironically, one goal more than Emirates Marketing Project!

I have concluded that people's opinions on Postecoglu are based on personal feelings and are not necessarily statistically supported beyond a similar situation with many other teams.

I can’t say there isn’t any emotion but it’s more down to cold hard facts. The fact that we pick up so many injuries under this manager, we concede so many goals and opportunities, look so disorganised and poorly set up. And I think he is out of his depth personally having not managed at this level before. I’ve said many times I feel the bigger issue at the club is the ownership, but they’re not going anywhere anytime soon. I also feel we need a manager who plays attacking football but makes us more sound defensively, someone like Poch.

 

[K.D.D.D.D.Soc]

There’s some strange stuff in this thread.

I’m getting the sense that some would rather not win the EL, than win it, and have the celebrations, the CL qualification, but have to cheer on Ange and have him for another season. That’s a sorry place to be and I suggest you go and support your local team instead.

I see many saying other managers could have done better this season with the same resources. We literally had Conte and Mourinho who were only managed fringe top 4 with prime Kane and Son.

That brings me to my last point. I think other managers probably could have kept us competitive this season in the same circumstances, but we still would have only been somewhere between 6th-10th with the injuries we’ve had and the ‘project’ type squad we have.

But….I wonder if Ange might have a bigger ceiling than other managers once he has a fit squad….like Poch did….per my above point - we saw what Jose and Conte (only) managed with a better team. Ange has already pretty much matched that last season with no Kane.

He’s made some strange decisions and clearly lacks a tactical back up plan but there are some crazy opinions on here.

To summarise - some seem to want to sack him….to get another manager in to fight for 5th….so we can then qualify for a tounament that they don’t want or win this season

My son takes the view that 2 league wins will guarantee not getting relegated and we should go all out to win Europa League. It's an alien thought for me as I believe we should be trying to win every game we play however unlikely that is. I've never been a fan of playing weak teams or as the experts term "rotation" if players are carrying an injury or need a rest that's a different matter. With a larger squad to pick from thier is some merit in the idea.

 

[tommysvr]

To concede 3 or more goals on 7 occasions is quite a lot no? Would you expect the top teams in the league to concede that many goals?

I don’t know if it’s a lot. Of course, I’d rather it never happened but we’re not a top team. I don’t expect us to be there yet. I picked out Ange because I thought in 3-5 years he could get us there.

I don’t get why you moved the goalposts on this one or why last season is even that relevant - we finished a very respectable 5th.

You and I would probably disagree on what time it is so let’s just leave it there.

 

[Mr Gogolak]

I have concluded that people's opinions on Postecoglu are based on personal feelings and are not necessarily statistically supported beyond a similar situation with many other teams.

I believe that's why they're called opinions in the first place and not 'facts' or 'truths'. You didn't ask for it but in my opinion, this is one of the biggest problems of contemporary societies: we (collectively) can no longer entertain the idea that people think differently or have a different set of values. People who want him out don't necessarily have a grudge against Postecoglou, just like those who want him to keep his job aren't blabbering idiots who want to run the club into the ground just because they're afraid of change.
I'm left scratching my head (just like the great man) that after ten years of 'diversity' being such a huge topic, people still want to squash differing opinions (not saying that's your case, of course - it's just a generic rant/rambling).

 

[Yiddo]

All energy and focus has to be aimed at the Europa League. If he wins it all will be forgiven, if he doesn’t then he should be sacked in the summer.

 

[Jurgen the German]

I don’t know if it’s a lot. Of course, I’d rather it never happened but we’re not a top team. I don’t expect us to be there yet. I picked out Ange because I thought in 3-5 years he could get us there.

I don’t get why you moved the goalposts on this one or why last season is even that relevant - we finished a very respectable 5th.

You and I would probably disagree on what time it is so let’s just leave it there.

Fair enough. For what it’s worth I was still very much “Ange in” until around the turn of the year. The Leicester result just rammed it home for me. I haven’t seen that he can make us solid defensively, we’re too easy to play against IMO.

 

[Muttley]

I believe that's why they're called opinions in the first place and not 'facts' or 'truths'. You didn't ask for it but in my opinion, this is one of the biggest problems of contemporary societies: we (collectively) can no longer entertain the idea that people think differently or have a different set of values. People who want him out don't necessarily have a grudge against Postecoglou, just like those who want him to keep his job aren't blabbering idiots who want to run the club into the ground just because they're afraid of change.
I'm left scratching my head (just like the great man) that after ten years of 'diversity' being such a huge topic, people still want to squash differing opinions (not saying that's your case, of course - it's just a generic rant/rambling).

It's a great post.

I had an interesting weekend. I didn't watch the game live as I was at Twickenham. England won the Calcutta Cup, and Spurs had a 4-1 win to keep momentum going. My mate who I was at the rugby with supports Swindon and they won. A few beers, curry etc. What a great sporting Saturday.

Then I sat down on Sunday and watched our game. Whilst the delight of winning remained, the concerns on some of the tactics grounded me back into the reality of where we are. It's not a bad place as we score goals. However, in the early part of the game we had that vulnerability at the back that wasn't really down to players as much as tactics.

It's actually no different from Xg that has our opposition scoring 5 goals in the last 3 league games versus the 1 we have conceded. So some fans will use that 1 goal and 2 clean sheets in their arguments. Others will use Xg (and their own eyes) to share mild concerns about where we are. As a benchmark, our Xg was 4.5 goals and we scored 7.

I am with you though. For those at the edges that want Ange out, they need to be able to share their reasons. After all, they may be the most positive fans if trophies are the aspiration. Nobody should call them negative. Then we have the other extreme Ange In phalanx who will always find arguments why we should stick with him and give him more time. The toughest place is actually in the middle. I'm still of that opinion that Ange's plateau point might be just short of what we need. I don't want him gone now though. I want to see again at the end of May.