Ange in or out?

[Muttley]

The squad may be in good shape but the first 11 doesn’t have any standout players, particularly in CM or the forwards where you need a bit of quality. The forwards don’t create a whole lot so it mainly falls to Maddison and Kulu.

Yeah. Definitely missing that Kane, prime Son, player. The one opposition will really worry about, the one you can trust to show up with a moment of magic no matter how the game goes.

Really could do with one or two of those...

It certainly feels that way, but I'm wondering whether we need to recalibrate to Ange's tactics. We have 11 goal scorers and 14 assisters in our league team this year. It definitely can't be the case that it's purely the Madds and Kulu Show right?

In Kane's last season he scored 30 goals but only got 3 assists. Even our favourite pantomime loanee has 3 assists this season.

I'm definitely not against having more talismanic, elite players but I do think Ange's system is about the collective more than people give it credit for. We need workaholics. I certainly wouldn't want a Kane just gently jogging around with a few moments of class per 90 mins. I want players involved for 90 mins, not luxury players that weaken the team ethic and get paid double what the rest are earning.

 

[braineclipse]

It certainly feels that way, but I'm wondering whether we need to recalibrate to Ange's tactics. We have 11 goal scorers and 14 assisters in our league team this year. It definitely can't be the case that it's purely the Madds and Kulu Show right?

In Kane's last season he scored 30 goals but only got 3 assists. Even our favourite pantomime loanee has 3 assists this season.

I'm definitely not against having more talismanic, elite players but I do think Ange's system is about the collective more than people give it credit for. We need workaholics. I certainly wouldn't want a Kane just gently jogging around with a few moments of class per 90 mins. I want players involved for 90 mins, not luxury players that weaken the team ethic and get paid double what the rest are earning.

Absolutely needs to be a hard working player. And I'm not talking about a great goalscorer necessarily. But someone you can rely on to show up and fairly consistently be a class act. Someone you can pretty much always give the ball to and he will create headaches for the opposition.

Obviously a ridiculously high bar, but someone like Modric when he was here. Not much of a goalscorer or assister, but class. Doesn't have to be that ridiculously good, but that kind of "yeah, just give him the ball he'll do something useful" type talismanic figure. Or a goalscorer, or serial assister, but either way a "yup, he has the ball, good times will follow" type player.

 

[Muttley]

Absolutely needs to be a hard working player. And I'm not talking about a great goalscorer necessarily. But someone you can rely on to show up and fairly consistently be a class act. Someone you can pretty much always give the ball to and he will create headaches for the opposition.

Obviously a ridiculously high bar, but someone like Modric when he was here. Not much of a goalscorer or assister, but class. Doesn't have to be that ridiculously good, but that kind of "yeah, just give him the ball he'll do something useful" type talismanic figure. Or a goalscorer, or serial assister, but either way a "yup, he has the ball, good times will follow" type player.

I hear you.

Well we do have a Luca, and a Mikey, and a Jamie, and an Alfie.

 

[NickTB]

Did a comedy double take on the M1 earlier

 

[monkeybarry]

yeah but you ought to be thinking more about the "useable" depth on the bencyh
- kinski 21, udogie 22, gray 18, sarr 22, bergvall 19, moore 17, tel 19, odobert 20

of these lot maybe udogie has sufficient top level experience, the rest are just learning as they go along and we've had to rely on this lot for a bit longer than any team would.

even more reason for ange to rotate the first eleven more, earlier in the season, to avoid injuries and over reliance on a young and inexperienced lot

Odobert has 30 Ligue 1 and 33 EPL games
Sarr had 55 Ligue 1 and 69 EPL games
Tel has 7 Ligue 1 and 60 Bundesliga games
Udogie has 74 Serie A and 46 EPL games

I wouldn't say it's a massive difference.
Something a lot of our team, and especially the younger ones, don't have is consistency - they haven't had too many long runs in teams. They are about that age where it can start to happen now.

 

[Raziel]

Lets put it this way then, regardless of age when it comes to the discussion of quality of the squad. Forgetting age, too many of our players are inconsistent and this stems back to before Ange was here. Which players would you hang your hat on to put in a performance for us?

Vicario? Nope, he was having some shockers pre injury
Romero? Can look world class one game, an accident waiting to happen the next
VDV? As a few have highlighted, he isn't the greatest defender but does have pace to cover for this - lets say for argument sake he is consistent enough
Udogie? Nope. Has been as poor for as long as he's been good for us, but he's young no big deal. Spence perhaps will prove to be, but bigger sample size needed
Porro? Overall Id say he's been consistently good
Our CMs? None of them, and would think over time Gray and Bergvall plus hopefully an established CM
Kulu, of course has been great all in all.
Don't really need to go through our forwards, we all know they aren't great. Solanke I would say has been consistently good though.

Our squad is mostly a blend of past their best or potentially really good. There aren't many genuine quality players who you know are going to give us consistent 8/10 or even 7/10 performances at the moment.....

I think that is an indictment of the system more than the players (and very little of this team is really pre Ange)

- Vicario is a very good keeper, and he fudges up way less than Ederson (yes, I know people won't agree)/Raya/etc. He was exposed by a change in tactics (and lack of protection by refs), that the team should have adjusted to quicker.
- Romero is an elite defender, and btw, if you want to know which of our players are good, look at who wants to buy them
- VDV & Porro, same commentary, both would have no problem having an offer from a bigger club
- Bentancur remains our only truly top level CM if he can get back to pre-injury level.
- Kulu is the next potential elite player for us (if he continues to grow and we continue to play him more centrally)
- Solanke is a good top level CF, in the right system he will get 20 goals a season and will contribute heavily to the work in the team
- Son is an elite player on the downside of his career being used wrong.

Gray, Bergvall, Moore, Kinsky are all meant to contribute/blend in far less than they have had to.

The only players I'd argue have that inconsistency problem you push on is Bissouma/Maddison/Johnson. And the real question is what player in the squad you really don't want to have in team at all? my opinion it's probably Werner & Reguilon but it's more some can be upgraded vs. just bad players.

At the end of the day, no fudging way this squad should have 7 more losses in 25 games than Fulham, Bournemouth, Forest, Brighton.

 

[tommysvr]

I think that is an indictment of the system more than the players (and very little of this team is really pre Ange)

- Vicario is a very good keeper, and he fudges up way less than Ederson (yes, I know people won't agree)/Raya/etc. He was exposed by a change in tactics (and lack of protection by refs), that the team should have adjusted to quicker.
- Romero is an elite defender, and btw, if you want to know which of our players are good, look at who wants to buy them
- VDV & Porro, same commentary, both would have no problem having an offer from a bigger club
- Bentancur remains our only truly top level CM if he can get back to pre-injury level.
- Kulu is the next potential elite player for us (if he continues to grow and we continue to play him more centrally)
- Solanke is a good top level CF, in the right system he will get 20 goals a season and will contribute heavily to the work in the team
- Son is an elite player on the downside of his career being used wrong.

Gray, Bergvall, Moore, Kinsky are all meant to contribute/blend in far less than they have had to.

The only players I'd argue have that inconsistency problem you push on is Bissouma/Maddison/Johnson. And the real question is what player in the squad you really don't want to have in team at all? my opinion it's probably Werner & Reguilon but it's more some can be upgraded vs. just bad players.

At the end of the day, no fudging way this squad should have 7 more losses in 25 games than Fulham, Bournemouth, Forest, Brighton.

We've not even had 5 of the players in that list (Vicario, Romero, VDV, Bentancur, Solanke) for the majority of the past 3 months.

 

[harr1984]

I think that is an indictment of the system more than the players (and very little of this team is really pre Ange)

- Vicario is a very good keeper, and he fudges up way less than Ederson (yes, I know people won't agree)/Raya/etc. He was exposed by a change in tactics (and lack of protection by refs), that the team should have adjusted to quicker.
- Romero is an elite defender, and btw, if you want to know which of our players are good, look at who wants to buy them
- VDV & Porro, same commentary, both would have no problem having an offer from a bigger club
- Bentancur remains our only truly top level CM if he can get back to pre-injury level.
- Kulu is the next potential elite player for us (if he continues to grow and we continue to play him more centrally)
- Solanke is a good top level CF, in the right system he will get 20 goals a season and will contribute heavily to the work in the team
- Son is an elite player on the downside of his career being used wrong.

Gray, Bergvall, Moore, Kinsky are all meant to contribute/blend in far less than they have had to.

The only players I'd argue have that inconsistency problem you push on is Bissouma/Maddison/Johnson. And the real question is what player in the squad you really don't want to have in team at all? my opinion it's probably Werner & Reguilon but it's more some can be upgraded vs. just bad players.

At the end of the day, no fudging way this squad should have 7 more losses in 25 games than Fulham, Bournemouth, Forest, Brighton.

You've just highlighted exactly how some of our fans over rate our own players - Romero is not an elite defender, he fudges up in so many games. He has games where he is top class, other games where he behaves like a raving lunatic. To be an elite defender you have to have those top performances as the norm, that simply isn't the case with him. And he was like that before Ange was here, not buying that these players just aren't doing it because of him.

As for VDV and Porro they are even further from elite defenders! Porro is great with the ball at his feet, but as a defender? lol And VDV has great pace, his actual defending can be improved on a lot.

Our CMs are not consistent whatsoever for various reasons, and neither are our attackers. Solanke and Kulu yes absolutely agree. There is MASSIVE scope for our squad to improve in the next 2 years even if we didn't add anyone because many are young with growth potential. We just need to exercise some understanding and patience in these inconsistencies, and recognise where this squad is at. A nucleus in the future of Kinksy, VDV plus AN Other of our young CBs, Bergvall, Gray, Tel, then add in Odobert and Moore really could be something mixed in with a classy established CM and wing forward. But they are not there yet, we are just talking potential at this stage....

 

[fernadez]

The one player that would make Ange's system work without any alterations is probably prime Dembele.

His ability to take it off the defence, not get tackled for a season and the lay it off would completely change the dynamic of the team, especially in regards to in game management and stopping the basketball element of our play.

Where we at on those cloning experiments?

 

[Gazza Dazzla]

The one player that would make Ange's system work without any alterations is probably prime Dembele.

His ability to take it off the defence, not get tackled for a season and the lay it off would completely change the dynamic of the team, especially in regards to in game management and stopping the basketball element of our play.

Where we at on those cloning experiments?

Prime Dembele makes any system work, we were priveleged to have him.

 

[Muttley]

I reckon if you put Ange's current squad side by side against Poch's 16/17 squad (the 86 points one) you'd probably see the following:

Poch's team would dominate the first eleven. Ange's squad would dominate the places 12 to 25 squad places.

It wouldn't just be Dembele that walks into the current team.

 

[johnola]

A more pertinent question is what would Ange have done with that team?

 

[Baleforce]

A more pertinent question is what would Ange have done with that team?

Not as much as Poch.

 

[Bishop]

A more pertinent question is what would Ange have done with that team?

The best and most suited squad we've had for Ange would be Harry's I think. That team had the best group of technicians in recent years. Modric and VDV in particular, plus baller FBs on Corluka and BAE who could both play the inverted role to a good extent. The only thing it lacked was a top quality striker.

 

[Yiddo]

Not as much as Poch.

Poch underachieved in the end with that team, Champions league final aside what else did he do apart from finish top 4? We had one of the best and arguably the most balanced side in the league for 2 seasons.

 

[Gutter Boy]

Poch underachieved in the end with that team, Champions league final aside what else did he do apart from finish top 4? We had one of the best and arguably the most balanced side in the league for 2 seasons.

Built a team that was Vice EPL Champions and Vice CL Winners (as Europeans would put it), whilst qualifying for CL every year, with a zero net spend over 5 years. Only Nicholson, Rowe and Burkinshaw in 140 years have topped that, and they weren't in an age of such extreme doping.

 

[Mcfee]

Poch underachieved in the end with that team, Champions league final aside what else did he do apart from finish top 4? We had one of the best and arguably the most balanced side in the league for 2 seasons.

That’s what Poch did!

 

[Gutter Boy]

The one player that would make Ange's system work without any alterations is probably prime Dembele.

His ability to take it off the defence, not get tackled for a season and the lay it off would completely change the dynamic of the team, especially in regards to in game management and stopping the basketball element of our play.

Where we at on those cloning experiments?

 

[Jurgen the German]

Poch underachieved in the end with that team, Champions league final aside what else did he do apart from finish top 4? We had one of the best and arguably the most balanced side in the league for 2 seasons.

Finished 2nd and made us a consistent top 4 team with negligible funding. One thing that can be levelled against him IMO was our performances in big games, knockout games etc but we would kill for that type of consistency in league form now after finishing 6th, 7th, 8th and potentially bottom half this season.

 

[fernadez]

A more pertinent question is what would Ange have done with that team?

It's just injuries mate