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OMT * Tottenham Hotspur v Leicester City *

alekaras said:
It affects all teams. It's just that it seems to take us much longer to snap out of it than most teams.
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If football had time-outs then I think Ange would've used one 5 minutes or so after Leicester's goal.

We probably could've done with one of our experienced players and preferably an attacker, going down to get some treatment at this point and then the team coming over to Ange for a little Arteta style coaching on the sideline. Really just to take the sting out of Leicester a bit and quieten the crowd who had got themselves up for it with that translating to more effort and confidence from their players.
 
braineclipse said:
On the performance. We were one quality pass, strike or move away from a comfortable 2-3 goal win imo. If that had happened very few would have had any issues with the performance and the performance would in effect have been no better. Underlying issues like defensive vulnerability and ability to respond to setbacks would have been no more solved.

Let's give it some time and see how the start of the season plays out.
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And I think that's fair comment. We shouldn't judge a season on last night. To be fair, the first half (or first 55 mins) performance last night was first class in all but finishing IMO. Every player contributed, we looked comfortable and we looked fairly powerful. Despite my criticism of Ange's use of full backs, it was that usage which brought us the goal.

But, but, but. The fact we gave up control of the game in the way we did raises some very uncomfortable questions because there will be many games that we don't control and we need to do better.

For me, I'll never agree fully with Ange's beliefs and he's not going to change. Therefore, the best way for me to judge him in my own mind is decide what's an acceptable season. He finishes top 6 and a cup run or two, he's done well in my view however he achieves it. That's the benchmark for me regardless of how individual games go.
 
alekaras said:
It's buy-in and internalizing the system and attitude. Once all players do that you won't need a leader on the pitch, because you'll have 11 of them.
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Possibly
But that’s now why I think our players looke shell shocked
The opposition know we are down for the period too
 
Bedfordspurs said:
Possibly
But that’s now why I think our players looke shell shocked
The opposition know we are down for the period too
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Until we get there we need someone who will get the players to snap out of it. But I'm also thinking of what Ange has said about players not "doing it because I tell them, but doing it because it's ingrained in them." If a leader giving them a gonading achieves the latter, then we need that leader. If achieving it means they have to figure it out themselves, even if it means we suffer on the results, then maybe that leader isn't that necessary in the long run. Ange can give them a gonading from the sidelines too, if necessary.
 
alekaras said:
Until we get there we need someone who will get the players to snap out of it. But I'm also thinking of what Ange has said about players not "doing it because I tell them, but doing it because it's ingrained in them." If a leader giving them a gonad*ing achieves the latter, then we need that leader. If achieving it means they have to figure it out themselves, even if it means we suffer on the results, then maybe that leader isn't that necessary in the long run. Ange can give them a gonad*ing from the sidelines too, if necessary.
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If he is looking for a leader to do this, then Son is not the person. The closest person to this is Romero.
 
thfcsteff said:
Let me save you some time and ang(e)st. He won't change. What you are effectively asking for is to change 'the boy'.
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Okay, fine, he's entitled to be stubborn. But what 'he won't change' means, is that he sinks with the ship, like any captain.

And if we're in the deep come Nov/Dec, he sinks and we go again. Why do that, when a little adaptability could both have us play better and keep him in a job?

thfcsteff said:
Answers within...

A different tactical system.
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Okay?

thfcsteff said:
Yes, this will always be an issue when teams sit in.
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Supposed to be less of an issue this year. Postecoglou has been here a year, we're supposed to look at least a little better at penetrating deep blocks, but looks like nothing has changed since last season.

thfcsteff said:
I think this is inaccurate. We stopped playing for 15 minutes of the game; otherwise we were dominant.
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Minor correction mate - Leicester only needed to play for 15 minutes to get a point, and nearly get a win (if Vardy had put his chance away).

thfcsteff said:
That's the risk/reward he operates with
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And at this point, it's more risk than reward.

thfcsteff said:
Interested in what you mean? Leicester didn't really press us at all, save the 15 mins around their goal, where I think we simply lost some courage.
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Those 15 minutes are what concern me mate. It's fine to say we can play when there's no press - I'm looking for what we do when we're pressed, and the panicky shambles that those 15 minutes were concerns me. Other teams will press for more than that, and it looks like playing through it remains an issue for us.

thfcsteff said:
Too early IMO. Way too early.
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Saw some stats that were interesting.

- We have kept 3 clean sheets in the last 30 games.
- Our last 12 games are 4 wins, 7 losses and 1 draw, with the wins coming against Luton, Burnley, Sheffield United and Villa.

Wondering how much time has to elapse before this starts looking concerning, mate?

So far I'm only just concerned that our issues persist, but if this form carries on into Oct/Dec, imo the conversation will get a lot more ominous.
 
alekaras said:
It took Klopp and Arteta 3 years to get their teams humming, and with more resources than us. But if Ange doesn't do it after one and a half seasons he should be sacked. Do you have any perspective???
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Klopp got to the Europa League final in his very first season. Arteta won the FA Cup in his first season.

There's a little bit of revisionism in that comparison, imo. Even Poch got to the LC final in his first season. In all their cases, there was enough consistent upward momentum that you could see the direction of travel - i.e, they got better each year/season, albeit with caveats (Arteta going 8th -> 8th for a year).

In Postecoglou's case, yes we had that same forward momentum for the first ten games. But after that, it was a concerning collapse that seems to have continued into this season. And of course, our cup performances were laughable last year so he doesn't have that to fall back on unlike Klopp/Arteta/Poch.

Just saying, more complex than that comparison lets on.
 
parklane1 said:
Making Son capt was a mistake [imo] he is not a vocal leader and is too nice a guy to gonad* players who are doing something wrong. I agree imo it should be Romero.
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Honestly mate, not sure it should be Romero. His individual excellence aside, he goes walkabout a little at times, losing his man - and him being the senior partner in the CB duo doesn't seem to be helping much in keeping the numbers of goals conceded down.

If he goes over to gonad a player of ours, that player has every right to gonad him back for not doing his job at times, and he can't really say too much.

You need someone both consistent and demanding/vocal. I almost think Vicario is the only one who meets that criteria in the side atm, but then you run into the same issues we had with Hugo in terms of a GK being captain.
 
DubaiSpur said:
Honestly mate, not sure it should be Romero. His individual excellence aside, he goes walkabout a little at times, losing his man - and him being the senior partner in the CB duo doesn't seem to be helping much in keeping the numbers of goals conceded down.

If he goes over to gonad* a player of ours, that player has every right to gonad* him back for not doing his job at times, and he can't really say too much.

You need someone both consistent and demanding/vocal. I almost think Vicario is the only one who meets that criteria in the side atm, but then you run into the same issues we had with Hugo in terms of a GK being captain.
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I would have said Vic was in with a shout as well until last night, bawling out bergval like that was ridiculous, especially after not bawling out anyone at the goal.
That's not captain material, in fact it's borderline bullying.
 
glasgowspur said:
I would have said Vic was in with a shout as well until last night, bawling out bergval like that was ridiculous, especially after not bawling out anyone at the goal.
That's not captain material, in fact it's borderline bullying.
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Agree. 18 year old on his debut. Out of order.
 
glasgowspur said:
I would have said Vic was in with a shout as well until last night, bawling out bergval like that was ridiculous, especially after not bawling out anyone at the goal.
That's not captain material, in fact it's borderline bullying.
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Said exactly that when watching it. It was a terrible thing to do to a young kid who’s just come onto the pitch for his senior debut.
 
Mikey10 said:
Said exactly that when watching it. It was a terrible thing to do to a young kid who’s just come onto the pitch for his senior debut.
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Not to mention it wasn't really his fault as he was given a bit of a hospital pass. Ange encourages these guys to play, not that I think this will happen but a young guy could easily go into his shell and lose confidence after a telling off like that. Thankfully with Bergvalls character I seriously doubt it....
 
harr1984 said:
Not to mention it wasn't really his fault as he was given a bit of a hospital pass. Ange encourages these guys to play, not that I think this will happen but a young guy could easily go into his shell and lose confidence after a telling off like that. Thankfully with Bergvalls character I seriously doubt it....
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I don't understand why Ange hasn't taken more blame for this. He suspends Bissouma and plays a load of kids when we need experience to win the game.

I'm not saying that we definitely win with Bissouma, just that it saves a lot of kids getting into brick on their debut.
 
Listening to the podcasts and reading opinions after the match last night I'm reminded how we often draw these long conclusions about how a player is such and such based on one single fudging game. So a player had a bad game - then all of a sudden he IS terrible at x, y and z, as if all of the capabilities of that player was on show in the 90 minutes of football last night. Why do we always go down those roads and judge players on a single performance? Ok, so Johnson wasn't great yesterday, but we all know he can be more than capable of attacking down his side and put decent crosses in, and also attack the back post and score. He's a decent player. Give the players a break. One game of football.
 
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