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Olympic games Paris 2024

Yeah I get this isn’t a trans issue, just that a lot of what’s been posted in relation to this is very transphobic. Sort of highlights the stupidity and ignorance of a lot of folks.

It’s a fair question and not one I can really answer. The IOC said something along the lines of “the PBU (Paris 2024 Boxing Unit) testing and guidelines are consistent with previous Olympics”. Full statement is at https://olympics.com/ioc/news/joint-paris-2024-boxing-unit-ioc-statement.

Like I say, it’s not an area that I have any real knowledge or expertise in. I just find some of the reaction more reflective of people’s prejudice rather than insightful analysis of what’s actually gone on.
Yes, but the guidlines are that the gender is based on what's on a passport. In this case that isn't enough and aren't enough for those that have DSD.
I seen stats on the difference in punching power between men and women. At that weight the difference would be the same difference as between a 60kg fighter and a 90kg fighter. The safety of the boxers should be the paramount concern here.
 
You are being the opposite of progressive. Single sex sports exist for good reasons: fairness in all sports where strength and/or speed matter, and safety in contact and combat sports. Mediocre men can beat elite women in contests of strength and speed. Today a man punched a woman's helmet off and broke her nose in a brutally unfair and unsafe boxing

I think if a woman is good enough to compete with men then they should be allowed to, I'm sure a woman will be able to compete in some sports which are currently segregated, boxing is not a sport its barbaric thuggery where two strangers try to hurt one an other mainly for money might as well have dog fights.
 
I think if a woman is good enough to compete with men then they should be allowed to, I'm sure a woman will be able to compete in some sports which are currently segregated, boxing is not a sport its barbaric thuggery where two strangers try to hurt one an other mainly for money might as well have dog fights.
If the sport comes down to physicality then a woman isn't going to be able to compete against men. Serena Williams, one of the most dominant female competitors, said that she would lose 6-0 6-0 in about 10 mins against Andy Murray when he challenged her to a match and laughed at the idea.
 
I don't follow boxing at all, but I've seen pics of this fight and what struck me was that they didn't look like they should be in the same weight category.
The Algerian looked considerably bigger, although that could just be the camera angle.
Male gene element makes her naturally leaner and stronger
 
If the sport comes down to physicality then a woman isn't going to be able to compete against men. Serena Williams, one of the most dominant female competitors, said that she would lose 6-0 6-0 in about 10 mins against Andy Murray when he challenged her to a match and laughed at the idea.

There are lots of sports where women can compete with men and there will come a time when they will break into the mens realm, they may not be at the top but they will get there.
 
Khelif is a man. Just look at him. His opponent abandoned the fight after 46 seconds, after Khelif broke her nose. This is a travesty of sport.

No, they were tested by International Boxing Association and found to have XY chromosomes (therefore male) and banned from competing in IBA governed tournaments. IBA were the governing body for the Olympics originally and they couldn't compete but there was something up with IBA governance and they were removed and a new body put in place. The new body doesn't have proper rules in place for this and from what I can understand they were allowed compete as women because it states they are women on their passports.

This is nothing to do with being trans, they suffer from disorders of sex development but are still men if they have an XY chromosome.

He failed a sex test. He's a man.

This to me is distasteful. Not having a go, not blaming you if this is something you're not familiar with, many people aren't and my knowledge too it's limited.

I don't think we know the full story yet, we may never know. If true that this fighter has XY chromosomes I think the most likely explanation is that she's intersex. In that case her primary sexual characteristics are very likely to be those typically associated with females. Intersex people can have XY chromosomes and appear physically as either male or female from birth.

Calling an intersex person who has identified as a woman all her life, and probably lived most of her life knowing nothing about her genetic makeup, a man is imo not anywhere near ok.

The issues around intersex people and competition in high level sports are difficult and I won't pretend to have all the answers. But this kind of language certainly isn't part of the solution.

Intersex people exist. Some of them are quite conscious about their looks not fitting all that neatly into the typical gender binary. Having people all over the world saying "he's a man", or "XY therefore man" isn't true and can be very hurtful. Potentially for this particular boxer (how could I know for sure), but also for other intersex people. Or even just for people who aren't intersex, but are self conscious about a part of their physical appearance not fitting into the "gender binary".

See also the Caster Semenya case Semenya, born with DSD, is a man and has fathered children, but has competed unfairly as a woman.

Gender ideologues use DSD to try to deny the binary nature of sex in humans, but cases of DSD are very rare and don't invalidate the binary.
DSD or intersex people do exist though even if it's rare. They don't fit neatly into the binary. Pretending that they do isn't good, useful or true.
 
Simone Biles, WOW !!!
What a woman

My wife was a volunteer at a local kids gymnastics group, it's an amazing discipline for kids.
The confidence and positive attitude it gives to kids is brilliant to see.
I have nothing but admiration for these athletes and the inspiration they provide. Amazing!
 
This to me is distasteful. Not having a go, not blaming you if this is something you're not familiar with, many people aren't and my knowledge too it's limited.

I don't think we know the full story yet, we may never know. If true that this fighter has XY chromosomes I think the most likely explanation is that she's intersex. In that case her primary sexual characteristics are very likely to be those typically associated with females. Intersex people can have XY chromosomes and appear physically as either male or female from birth.

Calling an intersex person who has identified as a woman all her life, and probably lived most of her life knowing nothing about her genetic makeup, a man is imo not anywhere near ok.

The issues around intersex people and competition in high level sports are difficult and I won't pretend to have all the answers. But this kind of language certainly isn't part of the solution.

Intersex people exist. Some of them are quite conscious about their looks not fitting all that neatly into the typical gender binary. Having people all over the world saying "he's a man", or "XY therefore man" isn't true and can be very hurtful. Potentially for this particular boxer (how could I know for sure), but also for other intersex people. Or even just for people who aren't intersex, but are self conscious about a part of their physical appearance not fitting into the "gender binary".


DSD or intersex people do exist though even if it's rare. They don't fit neatly into the binary. Pretending that they do isn't good, useful or true.

I don’t think people should be so sensitive. There is what you are and then there is what you are not.

Let’s deal with it like grown ups. If it is fair for physiological men to fight women then draw the line for sport to define women very high and with little variance.

The male category then becomes the catch all for all body types that are not female.
 
This to me is distasteful. Not having a go, not blaming you if this is something you're not familiar with, many people aren't and my knowledge too it's limited.

I don't think we know the full story yet, we may never know. If true that this fighter has XY chromosomes I think the most likely explanation is that she's intersex. In that case her primary sexual characteristics are very likely to be those typically associated with females. Intersex people can have XY chromosomes and appear physically as either male or female from birth.

Calling an intersex person who has identified as a woman all her life, and probably lived most of her life knowing nothing about her genetic makeup, a man is imo not anywhere near ok.

The issues around intersex people and competition in high level sports are difficult and I won't pretend to have all the answers. But this kind of language certainly isn't part of the solution.

Intersex people exist. Some of them are quite conscious about their looks not fitting all that neatly into the typical gender binary. Having people all over the world saying "he's a man", or "XY therefore man" isn't true and can be very hurtful. Potentially for this particular boxer (how could I know for sure), but also for other intersex people. Or even just for people who aren't intersex, but are self conscious about a part of their physical appearance not fitting into the "gender binary".


DSD or intersex people do exist though even if it's rare. They don't fit neatly into the binary. Pretending that they do isn't good, useful or true.
And I find it distasteful that you care more about being woke than a womans safety.

Nobody said DSD people don't exist. I even pointed out that's the issue here. If they are DSD/intersex and have male characteristics (XY chromosome) that give them a physical advantage they should not be able to compete in women's boxing. It's more important in a physical contact sport than any other. Nobody is saying they can't live the rest of their lives freely as a woman or whatever way they want to identify.
 
There are lots of sports where women can compete with men and there will come a time when they will break into the mens realm, they may not be at the top but they will get there.
Possibly but they will be non-physical sports like Fallon Sherrock in the darts.
 
Yes, but the guidlines are that the gender is based on what's on a passport. In this case that isn't enough and aren't enough for those that have DSD.
I seen stats on the difference in punching power between men and women. At that weight the difference would be the same difference as between a 60kg fighter and a 90kg fighter. The safety of the boxers should be the paramount concern here.
No actual evidence has been provided around this though. The IBA have repeatedly refused to actually disclose the testing method or testing results.

The Algerian fighter has lost to women a number of times in her career (I heard 9 today but Wiki says 5) including Kellie Harrington and Amy Broadhurst.
 
No actual evidence has been provided around this though. The IBA have repeatedly refused to actually disclose the testing method or testing results.

The Algerian fighter has lost to women a number of times in her career (I heard 9 today but Wiki says 5) including Kellie Harrington and Amy Broadhurst.
The fact that they say that she failed it leaves it open to question, which is why I said previously if there is doubt she should be tested.
It would've stopped any discussion and saved her this backlash if the previous tests weren't trustworthy. That is where the failure is and it's all on the IOC for not having the proper protocols in place.

I'm not saying it's an easy situation but they have to err on the side of safety for women boxers.

She was beaten 5 times but 4 of her victories were overturned and she was disqualified to make 9. Harrington beat her last Olympics and Broadhurst beat her in the world championship final. They are two of the very best women fighters in the world.
 
The fact that they say that she failed it leaves it open to question, which is why I said previously if there is doubt she should be tested.
It would've stopped any discussion and saved her this backlash if the previous tests weren't trustworthy. That is where the failure is and it's all on the IOC for not having the proper protocols in place.

I'm not saying it's an easy situation but they have to err on the side of safety for women boxers.

She was beaten 5 times but 4 of her victories were overturned and she was disqualified to make 9. Harrington beat her last Olympics and Broadhurst beat her in the world championship final. They are two of the very best women fighters in the world.

I go back to the IOC’s policy of letting the individual sports decide who they let participate. Massive cop out by them and id even go as far to say as it was a cowardly move by them because they believe like a lot of big organisations seem to these days that inclusion has to trump everything including fairness and safety.
 
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And I find it distasteful that you care more about being woke than a womans safety.

Nobody said DSD people don't exist. I even pointed out that's the issue here. If they are DSD/intersex and have male characteristics (XY chromosome) that give them a physical advantage they should not be able to compete in women's boxing. It's more important in a physical contact sport than any other. Nobody is saying they can't live the rest of their lives freely as a woman or whatever way they want to identify.
I rather directly said that I don't know or have very strong opinions on what the correct way is to deal with intersex people and top level sport.

I would argue that all people who compete in top level sports have genetic advantages, some more than others. I'm not sure where the line should be drawn.

There was really only one part of your post I was referring to. I could have been clearer about. What I was referring to was the sentence "...are still men if they have an XY chromosome." That imo is factually incorrect and also hurtful.

A wording like the one you used in your latest post I think is much more useful, and also gets more to what the core of the issue is. Because it seems rather obvious to me that the issue isn't that this boxer is a man.

As for your claim that I care more about being woke than a womans safety... I don't know what to think about that. Heat of the moment insult? Or what you actually think of me based on a careful reading of my post and opinion on this? Fun little throwaway standard comment to make about people who disagree with you on an issue like this? Something else?

Please let me know what you actually meant by that so I can respond appropriately.
 
I don’t think people should be so sensitive. There is what you are and then there is what you are not.

Let’s deal with it like grown ups. If it is fair for physiological men to fight women then draw the line for sport to define women very high and with little variance.

The male category then becomes the catch all for all body types that are not female.
Again, I don't claim to have all the solutions for how this should be handled.

It would be great if people were less sensitive about their physical appearance. How to get there? I think perhaps if less mean and demeaning things were said about people's appearance including how they look compared to gender stereotypes that would help... People get sensitive about this stuff for many reasons.
 
I rather directly said that I don't know or have very strong opinions on what the correct way is to deal with intersex people and top level sport.

I would argue that all people who compete in top level sports have genetic advantages, some more than others. I'm not sure where the line should be drawn.

There was really only one part of your post I was referring to. I could have been clearer about. What I was referring to was the sentence "...are still men if they have an XY chromosome." That imo is factually incorrect and also hurtful.

A wording like the one you used in your latest post I think is much more useful, and also gets more to what the core of the issue is. Because it seems rather obvious to me that the issue isn't that this boxer is a man.

As for your claim that I care more about being woke than a womans safety... I don't know what to think about that. Heat of the moment insult? Or what you actually think of me based on a careful reading of my post and opinion on this? Fun little throwaway standard comment to make about people who disagree with you on an issue like this? Something else?

Please let me know what you actually meant by that so I can respond appropriately.
Part tongue in cheek, part serious. The core for me here is the safety of the boxers and it shouldn't take second place to what someone finds distasteful. Unfortunately in the modern world people are too quick to jump on something as distasteful or find it offensive.

Biologically the XY chromosome is male. Maybe I should have worded it clearer and said that the XY is genotypic male and separate from the phenotypic sex and what a person identifies as for the more sensitive souls here. For something like boxing it should be a clear requirement to box in the women's categories the person should have XX chromosomes. Again this is not about what the person identifies as.
 
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I rather directly said that I don't know or have very strong opinions on what the correct way is to deal with intersex people and top level sport.

I would argue that all people who compete in top level sports have genetic advantages, some more than others. I'm not sure where the line should be drawn.

There was really only one part of your post I was referring to. I could have been clearer about. What I was referring to was the sentence "...are still men if they have an XY chromosome." That imo is factually incorrect and also hurtful.

A wording like the one you used in your latest post I think is much more useful, and also gets more to what the core of the issue is. Because it seems rather obvious to me that the issue isn't that this boxer is a man.

As for your claim that I care more about being woke than a womans safety... I don't know what to think about that. Heat of the moment insult? Or what you actually think of me based on a careful reading of my post and opinion on this? Fun little throwaway standard comment to make about people who disagree with you on an issue like this? Something else?

Please let me know what you actually meant by that so I can respond appropriately.

From what I can tell now, based on what I have read and pieced together that Khelif was 100% born a biological woman and the complexity comes from having high male testosterone and XY chromosomes which can happy, so claims she is a man and trans are way off.

Also appears that because any test by the IBA and IOC are done without disclosing what they are and the results fully that its added to any confusion. Seems this is as much a political point scoring cluster fcuk as it is "why are we letting a man fight in womens sport". It could all be ended with some factual statements from both bodies who I think are the ones doing the sport a disservice, not Khelif who everyone seems angry at.
 
Back to the actual sport, that was a great race in the rowing. GB unlucky, pipped on the line when they looked like they had it won.
 
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