Welcome Ange: To Dare is to Didgeridoo

[Muttley]

Wasn’t Mitchell the con artist who only wanted Levy to buy Southampton players that he was in line for a next sale bonus on?

Reminds me of a story that Barry Fry told about Harry Redknapp.

Back in the day, Barry (Barnet) was on the phone to Harry (Bournemouth) who was talking about just signing one of Barry's ex-players that summer. Barry was confused as he told Harry that he still had 2 years left on his contract with Barnet. Harry swore that the player was out of contract, so Barry went to the filing cabinet where the players contracts were. That player's contract wasn't even in that filing cabinet anymore so Harry ended up with the player. Someone had conveniently removed it so the player could move on.

Must admit, I hadn't heard that about Mitchell. Van Dijk would have been nice though.

 

[ricky2tricky4city]

So if we don’t have the resource, why not play differently for a few games, or for parts of games?

Because when you're pushing 60...change don't come easy.

(Something no-ones talked about)

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Reminds me of a story that Barry Fry told about Harry Redknapp.

Back in the day, Barry (Barnet) was on the phone to Harry (Bournemouth) who was talking about just signing one of Barry's ex-players that summer. Barry was confused as he told Harry that he still had 2 years left on his contract with Barnet. Harry swore that the player was out of contract, so Barry went to the filing cabinet where the players contracts were. That player's contract wasn't even in that filing cabinet anymore so Harry ended up with the player. Someone had conveniently removed it so the player could move on.

Must admit, I hadn't heard that about Mitchell. Van Dijk would have been nice though.

I’ve never been convinced by Mitchell and his legacy seems to grow depending on the fanbase rather than the players he brought in

 

[Bedfordspurs]

So if we don’t have the resource, why not play differently for a few games, or for parts of games?

Because that would take additional coaching and also players to coach

 

[Muttley]

I’ve never been convinced by Mitchell and his legacy seems to grow depending on the fanbase rather than the players he brought in

We can't possibly know as fans.

What we do know as fans is that the 2014-16 Poch signings of Son, Dele, Dier, Toby and Big Vic seemed like they made a huge difference to our direction of travel. I'm not sure the latter ones made one scrap of difference. Whoever scouted Moura, Aurier, Sanchez, Reggie, Sissoko, Janssen etc weren't good for our club.

 

[Baleforce]

Because that would take additional coaching and also players to coach

There is plenty of coaching time, it’s how they use it I’m questioning.

 

[braineclipse]

I think this is an accurate boil down.

It's clearly a highon the list prerequisite of Ange tactics ie 'we never stop'. Energy, intensity etc. You need replacements: substitutes in game to replenish the power bar or squad members to rotate game to game when you're playing every 3 days.

We don't have that with the injuries. If our first and second wave of pressing starts to flag, that's effectively our first two lines of defence flagging, hence more for the backline to do.

A side question is, are WE doing anything to cause this situation? We had the same injury crisis last season (with one game a week) but it was filed as 'getting used' to Anges methods. But This season we are experiencing the same. Richie, odobert, Davies, vdv, Romero are all soft tissue injuries. We have a sports science department so I hope they are playing their role. Obviously we are now backed into a corner as we only have a certain amount of players to choose from but I don't think any of the original injuries were through lack of rotation options at the time.

Most of the injuries that are soft tissue don't seem like a result of playing too much to me. Richarlison, Odobert at least. VDV was rotated out for EL games quite a bit. Was injured early in a game when games came in quick succession, not at the end of several games in quick succession.

I think partly it is that we have some somewhat injury prone players. Quite typical for a rapid player like VdV. Richie has struggled for a while now.

So if we don’t have the resource, why not play differently for a few games, or for parts of games?

I think we have adjusted somewhat. More of games where we don't press as high. But we're imo a bit slow and poor at adjusting ending up in situations where some players are still pressing high while others aren't. Doesn’t seem like a cohesive plan executed well to put it mildly.

But Ange has been quite clear that while he does adjust it will be within his principles. He has said he thinks we'll come through this a stronger team as a result of that (or words I understood to mean that at least). I think that's at least plausible. If he gets through this still in charge is a different question.

 

[braineclipse]

We can't possibly know as fans.

What we do know as fans is that the 2014-16 Poch signings of Son, Dele, Dier, Toby and Big Vic seemed like they made a huge difference to our direction of travel. I'm not sure the latter ones made one scrap of difference. Whoever scouted Moura, Aurier, Sanchez, Reggie, Sissoko, Janssen etc weren't good for our club.

Fully agreed. We can't fully know what happened.

But the change in success in the transfer market from the first couple of years under Pochettino to later on and then continuing from there more or less until Paratici came in is massive. And a huge reason why we've been struggling for so long.

Changing that to a more successful strategy is imo the single most important factor in deciding how we'll do going forward. The manager can be changed, new players can be signed if 2-3 individuals are needed, but sorting out a mess resulting from years of mediocre to bad transfer businesses takes a very long time.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

There is plenty of coaching time, it’s how they use it I’m questioning.

I don’t think there is
Speaking to people who I trust they tell me in the scenario were in it’s 80% recovery focussed
Queue people saying they wouldn’t need to recover as much if they defended better …

 

[Bedfordspurs]

We can't possibly know as fans.

What we do know as fans is that the 2014-16 Poch signings of Son, Dele, Dier, Toby and Big Vic seemed like they made a huge difference to our direction of travel. I'm not sure the latter ones made one scrap of difference. Whoever scouted Moura, Aurier, Sanchez, Reggie, Sissoko, Janssen etc weren't good for our club.

Yep
Our fans in some cases think Mitchell made all the earlier ones
I’ve heard enough people in the game talk about how signings are done and it’s at worst a team effort

 

[Muttley]

Yep
Our fans in some cases think Mitchell made all the earlier ones
I’ve heard enough people in the game talk about how signings are done and it’s at worst a team effort

Yeah, and the other repeated narrative is that the 1st team manager has the final say. I hate that, and learnt a lot from the Poch years. You could see the patterns of the players we wanted versus the ones we got, finally erupting into a stand-off where Poch refused to take anyone. Then there was Poch's intimations how much the late summer signings impacted the start of his seasons. I can absolutely see why he wanted to load more pressure on himself and run the whole show.

The Liverpool success was because the entire group of leaders around Klopp were a "team". They all existed to make him successful. I hope we get to that even if Ange falls on his sword on the journey and it is ANOther.

 

[monkeybarry]

Indeed. I actually disagree completely with @monkeybarry's statement regarding nothing changing even if we had the best DM in the world. I think a really good DM would be truly transformational for this team. I've lost count of the times when an opposition player drifts into the half space centrally and Bissouma just ignores him.

You appear to have disagreed with something I didn't say.
My point was, even if we had the best DM in the world and were still be over ran, Ange wouldn't do anything different to counteract the opposition constantly cutting through.
It was a point about taking action against what's happening Vs sticking to an ideology irrespective of events.

Of course a better DM would reduce team cutting through, but some good teams will still find a way - which is the point at which it is the managers job to support the team by making a change. Not doing so disrespects the oppositions quality

 

[Bishop]

I think the answer to that last question lies behind Poch's change in official job title from Head Coach to Manager. I.e. Kitchen was not there to replace Mitchell as someone that strategically identified players for the club. He was merely head of scouting and analysis, I.e. not there to identify players to the board for sign off by Poch but there to compile reports on players identified by Poch for final decision. There were stories and pictures of Poch going to watch players. He went to watch N'Dombele several times. That's not something a head coach would normally do - they'd leave that up to a sporting director. It was clear that Poch wanted more control of transfers and football strategy generally after Mitchell left.

The reason I mentioned it was we had very strong reports at the time that Poch did not want Sissoko or Clarke. Sessgnon was also a rumoured club signing. I think the fallout from Mitchell leaving, left the club in a bit of a lurch and we didn't properly replace his skillset until Paratici all those years later .

 

[ricky2tricky4city]

Most of the injuries that are soft tissue don't seem like a result of playing too much to me.

It's unprovable from either direction as we simply don't know.

The (important )bit I forgot to mention is the 'never stop' mantra applies to training as well.

 

[braineclipse]

Yeah, and the other repeated narrative is that the 1st team manager has the final say. I hate that, and learnt a lot from the Poch years. You could see the patterns of the players we wanted versus the ones we got, finally erupting into a stand-off where Poch refused to take anyone. Then there was Poch's intimations how much the late summer signings impacted the start of his seasons. I can absolutely see why he wanted to load more pressure on himself and run the whole show.

The Liverpool success was because the entire group of leaders around Klopp were a "team". They all existed to make him successful. I hope we get to that even if Ange falls on his sword on the journey and it is ANOther.

The "strange" thing for me is that those early successful signings weren't particularly expensive, some were outright steals, but even the one's that did cost a bit were way less expensive than some of those later failures and mediocre signings.

Don't understand where the friction would be coming from, surely Levy/the club should have been happy to keep going down a similar route with not massively expensive, mostly fairly young players. But that all stopped. Despite Pochettino being great at and seemingly wanting to work with (relatively speaking) younger players.

Everyone working together as a team is important. And of course the manager's needs should be important in that. But working as part of that team is on the manager too. The overall strategy from Munn/Lange (or Levy) has to match well with the manager's strategy too and the manager needs to be OK working within that strategy.

Klopp and Liverpool are a very good example of that. Another manager with a very good track record of both working with younger players and making a team of players more than the sum of it's parts (imo). Like Pochettino. Time will tell if Ange can do that at this level. His way of working was a very good fit for where the club was and what their strategy was when he took over.

Most of what we see and hear from Ange imo fits with where we are as a club, and how we seemingly want to go from here.

 

[braineclipse]

It's unprovable from either direction as we simply don't know.

The (important )bit I forgot to mention is the 'never stop' mantra applies to training as well.

Absolutely (for both points).

I do think part of Ange's "stubbornness" on playing style is part of a more holistic thinking about more than playing style. And I think (again unprovable) he thinks those are linked, at least with how he wants to operate.

That "mantra" has to become the norm. In training, in games, in good spells and in poor spells. And I think he's willing to forego short term results to keep innstilling that mantra as the only path to success under him.

Whereas I at least see an argument for temporarily changing things more tactically than he does I think he sees that as unacceptable as he's going to succeed or fail at this club based on his ability to truly instill that attitude. And if that doesn't happen he won't succeed anyway and any short term changes won't make up for that.

If (huge if) that's his approach I like it.

 

[braineclipse]

Indeed. I actually disagree completely with @monkeybarry's statement regarding nothing changing even if we had the best DM in the world. I think a really good DM would be truly transformational for this team. I've lost count of the times when an opposition player drifts into the half space centrally and Bissouma just ignores him.

I agree with your point, even though as monkeybarry points out it's not a contradiction to his point.

Though I only agree if that DM is also really good on the ball, press resistance, awareness, tempo setting, passing.

And to be transformational I don't think that player would have to be the best DM in the world. But probably would have to be really good.

The similarities between Ange and Pep in playing style are there though obviously not the same. But Pep missing Rodri. Pep having Busquets, Xavi, Lahm, Alonso in there in previous teams. Rodri now.

A lot of good things can be said about Bissouma (no, really). But as a deep press resistant playmaker it's not just that he's not world class like most of those have been. He's just not very good at it.

 

[Kompakted]

The reason I mentioned it was we had very strong reports at the time that Poch did not want Sissoko or Clarke. Sessgnon was also a rumoured club signing. I think the fallout from Mitchell leaving, left the club in a bit of a lurch and we didn't properly replace his skillset until Paratici all those years later .

There's probably some truth in the Clarke signing. He played Sissoko religiously even where others were available and he was clearly a manager favourite so don't believe that Poch wasn't fully behind that signing. Sessegnon simply was never fit enough to ever get a feel either way although I think "the club" had been monitoring him and his brother since they were kids (every club was)

 

[Bishop]

There's probably some truth in the Clarke signing. He played Sissoko religiously even where others were available and he was clearly a manager favourite so don't believe that Poch wasn't fully behind that signing. Sessegnon simply was never fit enough to ever get a feel either way although I think "the club" had been monitoring him and his brother since they were kids (every club was)

Nah, you forget he didn't play Sissoko at all at first, he only started playing once the injuries kicked in and we had no other options. As soon as he had the chance he tried to replace him with Ndombele and Lo Celso.

Sissoko was a last minute Levy special because we failed in signing Poch's actual choice wijnaldum.

 

[Muttley]

The "strange" thing for me is that those early successful signings weren't particularly expensive, some were outright steals, but even the one's that did cost a bit were way less expensive than some of those later failures and mediocre signings.

Don't understand where the friction would be coming from, surely Levy/the club should have been happy to keep going down a similar route with not massively expensive, mostly fairly young players. But that all stopped. Despite Pochettino being great at and seemingly wanting to work with (relatively speaking) younger players.

Everyone working together as a team is important. And of course the manager's needs should be important in that. But working as part of that team is on the manager too. The overall strategy from Munn/Lange (or Levy) has to match well with the manager's strategy too and the manager needs to be OK working within that strategy.

Klopp and Liverpool are a very good example of that. Another manager with a very good track record of both working with younger players and making a team of players more than the sum of it's parts (imo). Like Pochettino. Time will tell if Ange can do that at this level. His way of working was a very good fit for where the club was and what their strategy was when he took over.

Most of what we see and hear from Ange imo fits with where we are as a club, and how we seemingly want to go from here.

There's 2 or 3 areas I would identify.

The first is the sheer lateness of the deals each summer. I can remember a frustrated Poch talking about it. We all knew that Levy was pratting about rather than closing business and getting us off to fast starts each season. Levy piled pressure on his manager due to the lateness of the deals. His manager's pre-season's were hugely disrupted by this.

The second is whatever happened between Levy and Mitchell. Poch would know exactly what happened and was probably caught the middle of it. I'm guessing Poch saw the flaws in Levy running football ops, and perhaps the promotion of Hitchen was never blessed by Poch. Obviously, Poch and Micthell both moved from Saints and it felt like hiring Mitchell was Poch's request on Levy.

The third area is the subtle one. I'm not sure Poch wanted the same sort of signings that you describe above after the heights of 2016/17. I remember names like De Ligt, De Jong, Dybala, Fernandez etc. It's the cashflow model that I talk about. Levy was taking the CL monies and leaving Poch with zero net spending, and then posting world record profits. I mean, what manager would be happy after the chairman told the world that the stadium build and football ops were mutually exclusive and that the plan was to get CL when the stadium opened. Then Levy had the audacity to tell THST that Poch was happy with his squad and didn't want to sign anybody.

I think we have to remember that the weekly spokesperson for any football club is the 1st team manager. Poch did amazingly well talking proprietorially about our football club and defending his head of football operations. Doesn't mean he was aligned with him though.