Welcome Ange: To Dare is to Didgeridoo

[Raziel]

I find it strange to think one can state that Poch's time was up when the manager hasn't been given any time to perform a rebuild. He had been honest and open in stating that the team needed a (painful) rebuild. he had proven that he had what it takes to out perform the expectation for Tottenham Hotspur on a fraction of the budget of the top teams.

Everything that has happened since Pochettino has left has surely shown that the grass wasn't any greener at all?

Pochettino's coaching combined with a top class, properly invested in, recruitment and youth departments could've been a fantastic combination. Alas, we'll never know.

Bit revisionist/hopeful view

- Poch was a good coach for us, but his head was gone, in the end he became his mentor, he burned himself and some of his players out physically/emotionally. GLC, Ndombele were buys hoping he could fix his head, he couldn't. Similar to Conte, did he do good in first season? yes, but then he lost his head (in his case, personal issues)
- I think Poch would have struggled to work with a recruitment structure, his famous comments about coach vs. manager, his refusal of players at points and the fact the when the club did buy his players (too late), it was the worse window ever.

The big mistake the club made wasn't firing Poch, it was not replacing him with a manager that could manage the rebuild (although we could talk about the Nuno attempt), so effectively we just punted the problem 3 years.

Ange +squad still seem onboard/aligned, again, outside of a complete disaster, he's got to have until end of season. And he needs to be backed in January (a Deki/Bentancur window would be good)

 

[Muttley]

Here's a question. How would an older, wiser Poch do in this current setup?

It's a young 1st team squad with a promising academy and there's a totally different cashflow model nowadays.

He's only on $6m a year doing the US job.

 

[Raziel]

Here's a question. How would an older, wiser Poch do in this current setup?

It's a young 1st team squad with a promising academy and there's a totally different cashflow model nowadays.

He's only on $6m a year doing the US job.

Think he burnt his bridges (re the reality), but to the question

- I think Poch could get this team in/around top 4 (his teams actually used to put away the bottom sides pretty consistently)
- The issue will remain his ability to take it any further, actually win something

 

[SpiderSpurs]

Here's a question. How would an older, wiser Poch do in this current setup?

It's a young 1st team squad with a promising academy and there's a totally different cashflow model nowadays.

He's only on $6m a year doing the US job.

Erase that nonsense from your head!!

 

[Kompakted]

Here's a question. How would an older, wiser Poch do in this current setup?

It's a young 1st team squad with a promising academy and there's a totally different cashflow model nowadays.

He's only on $6m a year doing the US job.

I'd love Poch to manage this squad, but i do think that his refusal to work with a technical director/DoF was his undoing. He was very good at coaching/improving players that had good ceilings but he often wasn't a particularly good judge of a player and so many players we bought under him just did not improve us. Pretty much all of the key players of Poch's team were there when he arrived: Lloris, Vertonghen, Walker, Rose, Dembele, Eriksen, Lamela, Kane. Dele Alli was brought in by the club by Paul Mitchell on.David Pleat's advice and Mitchell also convinced Poch and Levy to buy Son and Alderweireld and Kieran Trippier.

When Mitchell left Poch was given that "manager" title and things really started unravelling from there. Wanyama was probably the last player we signed under Poch that really improved that squad and there was the infamous summer of no signings.....overall the rest says it all:

- Janssen £17m
- N'Koudou £10m
- Sissoko £30m
- Sanchez £40m
- Lucas £25m
- Aurier £25m
- Foyth £15m
- N'Dombele £60m
- Lo Celso £40m
- Sessegnon £30m
- Clarke £15m

 

[Muttley]

I'd love Poch to manage this squad, but i do think that his refusal to work with a technical director/DoF was his undoing. He was very good at coaching/improving players that had good ceilings but he often wasn't a particularly good judge of a player and so many players we bought under him just did not improve us. Pretty much all of the key players of Poch's team were there when he arrived: Lloris, Vertonghen, Walker, Rose, Dembele, Eriksen, Lamela, Kane. Dele Alli was brought in by the club by Paul Mitchell on.David Pleat's advice and Mitchell also convinced Poch and Levy to buy Son and Alderweireld and Kieran Trippier.

When Mitchell left Poch was given that "manager" title and things really started unravelling from there. Wanyama was probably the last player we signed under Poch that really improved that squad and there was the infamous summer of no signings.....overall the rest says it all:

- Janssen £17m
- N'Koudou £10m
- Sissoko £30m
- Sanchez £40m
- Lucas £25m
- Aurier £25m
- Foyth £15m
- N'Dombele £60m
- Lo Celso £40m
- Sessegnon £30m
- Clarke £15m

I'm not fully understanding the refusal to work with a DoF thing. Is that not just a media narrative? He's clearly worked with them before and it is the norm now at most football clubs. He would also know exactly who he'd be working with i.e. Munn and Lange.

The way I see it, if it were to happen and we saw Poch, Perez, Jimenez etc all return then we would only look forward. Every signing you list above in the past was under financial constraints and can never be labelled "Poch signings". They were signings for then, just like when we signed all those players that churned quickly under Jose.

It's a different club now.

I was deliberate about not sharing my opinion above. In reality, I want to stick with Ange for the time being. If he had to leave for whatever reason, I'd want to go down the path of a manager like Iraola before I reconsidered Poch who I have my doubts about at the elite level of management.

I would go as far as saying though that I'd love nothing more than Poch to be the man that brought silverware to our club. He is one of the good guys in football and has a place in our history greater than most of the managers in my lifetime.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

I'd love Poch to manage this squad, but i do think that his refusal to work with a technical director/DoF was his undoing. He was very good at coaching/improving players that had good ceilings but he often wasn't a particularly good judge of a player and so many players we bought under him just did not improve us. Pretty much all of the key players of Poch's team were there when he arrived: Lloris, Vertonghen, Walker, Rose, Dembele, Eriksen, Lamela, Kane. Dele Alli was brought in by the club by Paul Mitchell on.David Pleat's advice and Mitchell also convinced Poch and Levy to buy Son and Alderweireld and Kieran Trippier.

When Mitchell left Poch was given that "manager" title and things really started unravelling from there. Wanyama was probably the last player we signed under Poch that really improved that squad and there was the infamous summer of no signings.....overall the rest says it all:

- Janssen £17m
- N'Koudou £10m
- Sissoko £30m
- Sanchez £40m
- Lucas £25m
- Aurier £25m
- Foyth £15m
- N'Dombele £60m
- Lo Celso £40m
- Sessegnon £30m
- Clarke £15m

Poch biggest mistake was not changing or adding to his coaching staff
I’ve seen bath danny rose and Kyle Walker say that a new voice would have been so welcome

 

[billyiddo]

Poch biggest mistake was not changing or adding to his coaching staff
I’ve seen bath danny rose and Kyle Walker say that a new voice would have been so welcome

He wanted to bring in Arteta iirc

 

[Bedfordspurs]

He wanted to bring in Arteta iirc

Was one for sure that I remember getting mentioned
The conversation we along the lines of…
Poch - He can shove a whole lemon off my desk up his arse… so he is special
levy - What could he do with a light bulb… wait and see, they will make documentaries about this man.
Sorry that’s random as fudge

 

[Raziel]

I'm not fully understanding the refusal to work with a DoF thing. Is that not just a media narrative? He's clearly worked with them before and it is the norm now at most football clubs. He would also know exactly who he'd be working with i.e. Munn and Lange.

The way I see it, if it were to happen and we saw Poch, Perez, Jimenez etc all return then we would only look forward. Every signing you list above in the past was under financial constraints and can never be labelled "Poch signings". They were signings for then, just like when we signed all those players that churned quickly under Jose.

It's a different club now.

I was deliberate about not sharing my opinion above. In reality, I want to stick with Ange for the time being. If he had to leave for whatever reason, I'd want to go down the path of a manager like Iraola before I reconsidered Poch who I have my doubts about at the elite level of management.

I would go as far as saying though that I'd love nothing more than Poch to be the man that brought silverware to our club. He is one of the good guys in football and has a place in our history greater than most of the managers in my lifetime.

He actively pushed to have more control, famous bit about him with media discussing if he was manager or just a coach. Basically Spurs (who pioneered the DoF thing in England) dropped it to appease him.

He went to Chelsea mate, he's no longer one of the good guys, it's absolutely his choice but it affects his legacy with us 100%

 

[tommysvr]

a lot of Spurs ball under Ange is predicated on that 3rd goal. and when it fails to materialise, we collapse.

Eh? It’s “collapsed” twice, and one of those was an attitude thing rather than a system thing. Just a quick look through Ange’s fixture history shows we’ve actually seen out 2 goal leads many times.

 

[Terry Cunningham]

I'd love Poch to manage this squad, but i do think that his refusal to work with a technical director/DoF was his undoing. He was very good at coaching/improving players that had good ceilings but he often wasn't a particularly good judge of a player and so many players we bought under him just did not improve us. Pretty much all of the key players of Poch's team were there when he arrived: Lloris, Vertonghen, Walker, Rose, Dembele, Eriksen, Lamela, Kane. Dele Alli was brought in by the club by Paul Mitchell on.David Pleat's advice and Mitchell also convinced Poch and Levy to buy Son and Alderweireld and Kieran Trippier.

When Mitchell left Poch was given that "manager" title and things really started unravelling from there. Wanyama was probably the last player we signed under Poch that really improved that squad and there was the infamous summer of no signings.....overall the rest says it all:

- Janssen £17m
- N'Koudou £10m
- Sissoko £30m
- Sanchez £40m
- Lucas £25m
- Aurier £25m
- Foyth £15m
- N'Dombele £60m
- Lo Celso £40m
- Sessegnon £30m
- Clarke £15m

Wow. What a load of useless players that is.

 

[Bishop]

I'd love Poch to manage this squad, but i do think that his refusal to work with a technical director/DoF was his undoing. He was very good at coaching/improving players that had good ceilings but he often wasn't a particularly good judge of a player and so many players we bought under him just did not improve us. Pretty much all of the key players of Poch's team were there when he arrived: Lloris, Vertonghen, Walker, Rose, Dembele, Eriksen, Lamela, Kane. Dele Alli was brought in by the club by Paul Mitchell on.David Pleat's advice and Mitchell also convinced Poch and Levy to buy Son and Alderweireld and Kieran Trippier.

When Mitchell left Poch was given that "manager" title and things really started unravelling from there. Wanyama was probably the last player we signed under Poch that really improved that squad and there was the infamous summer of no signings.....overall the rest says it all:

- Janssen £17m
- N'Koudou £10m
- Sissoko £30m
- Sanchez £40m
- Lucas £25m
- Aurier £25m
- Foyth £15m
- N'Dombele £60m
- Lo Celso £40m
- Sessegnon £30m
- Clarke £15m

Without wanting to go over old ground there are a number of signings in there it's known Poch did not want. Poch was never the key driver of signings even after Mitchell left, Hitchen took on that responsibility.

I think the bigger question is why did Mitchell leave? We've heard the rumours over the years but never had real confirmation. You'd also have to ask why once Mitchell left was Hitchen bumped up to a role he seems highly unsuited for?

 

[Kompakted]

Without wanting to go over old ground there are a number of signings in there it's known Poch did not want. Poch was never the key driver of signings even after Mitchell left, Hitchen took on that responsibility.

I think the bigger question is why did Mitchell leave? We've heard the rumours over the years but never had real confirmation. You'd also have to ask why once Mitchell left was Hitchen bumped up to a role he seems highly unsuited for?

I think the answer to that last question lies behind Poch's change in official job title from Head Coach to Manager. I.e. Kitchen was not there to replace Mitchell as someone that strategically identified players for the club. He was merely head of scouting and analysis, I.e. not there to identify players to the board for sign off by Poch but there to compile reports on players identified by Poch for final decision. There were stories and pictures of Poch going to watch players. He went to watch N'Dombele several times. That's not something a head coach would normally do - they'd leave that up to a sporting director. It was clear that Poch wanted more control of transfers and football strategy generally after Mitchell left.

 

[Muttley]

He actively pushed to have more control, famous bit about him with media discussing if he was manager or just a coach. Basically Spurs (who pioneered the DoF thing in England) dropped it to appease him.

He went to Chelsea mate, he's no longer one of the good guys, it's absolutely his choice but it affects his legacy with us 100%

Did he not push to have more control because he saw a cluster fudge from the THFC teams that were supposed to be making him a success in his role. If the setup had been working for him then I'm sure he may have been more than happy to just worry about his own duties. He didn't want more control when his mate Steve Hitchen was in control and all of our best signings came in the early days - Dier, Son, Dele, Toby, Big Vic. From memory, Poch was losing the plot along with the rest of us how his chairman would just procrastinate on deals all summer because he clearly didn't appreciate the importance of being together on day 1 of pre-season and playing some games together. That Levy behaviour drove us all nuts,

 

[Muttley]

Without wanting to go over old ground there are a number of signings in there it's known Poch did not want. Poch was never the key driver of signings even after Mitchell left, Hitchen took on that responsibility.

I think the bigger question is why did Mitchell leave? We've heard the rumours over the years but never had real confirmation. You'd also have to ask why once Mitchell left was Hitchen bumped up to a role he seems highly unsuited for?

It was always implied that Mitchell was way too strong to put up with the crap from Levy. Like Trevor Birch after him, Paul had spent his career playing step 1 football and had done the hard yards at MK-Dons working in football ops roles after his playing career was over. He even knew Dele as a teenager in that capacity before working briefly at Saints with Poch. I'm sure Mitchell cared for Levy's opinions on potential player suitability and valuation as much as we all do.

So Levy made yet another poor football ops decision and promoted Hitchen. Our history is littered with them.

 

[Baleforce]

Wasn’t Mitchell the con artist who only wanted Levy to buy Southampton players that he was in line for a next sale bonus on?

 

[ricky2tricky4city]

To be fair to the critics of Ange those 2-0 up leading to wins have been games where we've been able to play with more energy throughout. Our way of defending imo works rather well, when we're playing with energy. When we aren't, not so much.

I think this is an accurate boil down.

It's clearly a highon the list prerequisite of Ange tactics ie 'we never stop'. Energy, intensity etc. You need replacements: substitutes in game to replenish the power bar or squad members to rotate game to game when you're playing every 3 days.

We don't have that with the injuries. If our first and second wave of pressing starts to flag, that's effectively our first two lines of defence flagging, hence more for the backline to do.

A side question is, are WE doing anything to cause this situation? We had the same injury crisis last season (with one game a week) but it was filed as 'getting used' to Anges methods. But This season we are experiencing the same. Richie, odobert, Davies, vdv, Romero are all soft tissue injuries. We have a sports science department so I hope they are playing their role. Obviously we are now backed into a corner as we only have a certain amount of players to choose from but I don't think any of the original injuries were through lack of rotation options at the time.

 

[Baleforce]

I think this is an accurate boil down.

It's clearly a high prerequisite of Ange tactics ie 'we never stop'. Energy, intensity etc. You need replacements: substitutes in game to replenish the power bar or squad members to rotate game to game when you're playing every 3 days.

We don't have that with the injuries. If our first and second wave of pressing starts to flag, that's effectively our first two lines of defence flagging, hence more for the backline to do.

A side question is, are WE doing anything to cause this situation? We had the same injury crisis last season (with one game a week) but it was filed as 'getting used' to Anges methods. But This season we are experiencing the same. Richie, odobert, Davies, vdv, Romero are all soft tissue injuries. We have a sports science department so I hope they are playing their role. Obviously we are now backed into a corner as we only have a certain amount of players to choose from but I don't think any of the original injuries were through lack of rotation options at the time.

So if we don’t have the resource, why not play differently for a few games, or for parts of games?

 

[Gazza]

Glad to read that it seems it is just an element of our fan base who are the knee-jerkers.

If this continues then I might finally accept that Levy really is no longer running anything on the football side of things and letting Munn get on with it.

How’s it knee jerk when it’s been so long that he cannot hide from his game mismanagement.