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Welcome Ange: To Dare is to Didgeridoo

alekaras said:
Mourinho and Conte failed because they were here for the money and didn't give a monkey's ass about the club. Especially when results started going south, they simply downed tools. That filters down to the players and the reaction is not "I will run through a wall for the manager," but quite the opposite. Add to that that they stifled the players natural instincts (especially Conte) and threw them under the bus so they could cover their ass and you get last year's outcome.

Contrast this with Ange who gives his players the platform to showcase their best attributes and shields them from blame when results go bad. As a player, who would you rather play for? Who would you "run through a wall for?"
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I hope you're right, I really do. But I'm not sure it's that black and white.

To be fair to Conte, towards the end of his reign, he returned to the dugout prematurely and risked damaging his health. That's not the actions of a man who had downed tools.

There is merit in your last sentence but it'll ultimately come down to a mixture of that and competence/results. If we're leaking goals and getting beaten then no matter how nice Ange is to the players, he'll be out of here like so many before him.
 
Bedfordspurs said:
Conte and ange bith have great records if you allow for the relative nature
They win titles in leagues they manage
One thing I have seen and heard that’s different so far… and it’s a very small sample
Where ange has been the fans love him even when he leaves
With conte… not that I’ve seen (and I’ll say again I haven’t done much research)
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There's also another big difference between them: Ange takes teams that are in the dumps and turns them into winners. Conte wouldn't even go near such teams (unless you throw wads of money at him and then he'll take it and blame everyone else if he fails).
 
Grays_1890 said:
I agree the media will be looking to manipulate things, its what they do, but the fans need to play their part too.

There will be many fans waiting behind the bushes for the first whiff of failure in order to come out and call him the last resort manager, cheap and to try and churn the whole negativity (Its all been said in part already). Where the reality is, if fans really want change and want to get onboard with this they can and can play their part fully, time will tell like with alot of it

If fans can get beyond the histrionics and berating players and manager as a route to get to Levy then we might have half a chance on the pitch. Fans calling Manor Solomon a cheap player and a typical Levy purchase is cheap and not really fair on the player
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I don't want to sound blasé our rain on your parade but I think of a guy who survived a manhunt by the media, not even Ardiles or Hoddle, and they were club legends - people who know what Spurs are all about. But the thing is, when you play attacking football and don't get the results and start getting hammered in the press, people suddenly want 'a proven winner', someone who 'at least' can 'set up a backline' or have a 'realistic approach'. Then you get George Graham and it starts all over again.

Maybe I'm growing too old to enjoy football but quite frankly, I've reached the conclusion that no matter where you come from, no matter who you are, you can't survive an onslaught from the press. Not even Wenger did, despite everything he did for them. When they go after you, the writing is on the wall. Ferguson's probably the only (famous) proof of the contrary but that was 40 years ago. Even Bielsa was sacked by Leeds. Only thing you can do is hope that you're record will be too good to question or that they'll pick on someone else.
 
Mr Gogolak said:
I don't want to sound blasé our rain on your parade but I think of a guy who survived a manhunt by the media, not even Ardiles or Hoddle, and they were club legends - people who know what Spurs are all about. But the thing is, when you play attacking football and don't get the results and start getting hammered in the press, people suddenly want 'a proven winner', someone who 'at least' can 'set up a backline' or have a 'realistic approach'. Then you get George Graham and it starts all over again.

Maybe I'm growing too old to enjoy football but quite frankly, I've reached the conclusion that no matter where you come from, no matter who you are, you can't survive an onslaught from the press. Not even Wenger did, despite everything he did for them. When they go after you, the writing is on the wall. Ferguson's probably the only (famous) proof of the contrary but that was 40 years ago. Even Bielsa was sacked by Leeds. Only thing you can do is hope that you're record will be too good to question or that they'll pick on someone else.
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This seems a bit chicken and egg to me, the press circle like vultures any manager going through a tough time and ultimately managers who go through extended periods of poor results will inevitably get the sack - managers don't get sacked because the press get on their case they get the sack for underperforming
 
Mr Gogolak said:
I don't want to sound blasé our rain on your parade but I think of a guy who survived a manhunt by the media, not even Ardiles or Hoddle, and they were club legends - people who know what Spurs are all about. But the thing is, when you play attacking football and don't get the results and start getting hammered in the press, people suddenly want 'a proven winner', someone who 'at least' can 'set up a backline' or have a 'realistic approach'. Then you get George Graham and it starts all over again.

Maybe I'm growing too old to enjoy football but quite frankly, I've reached the conclusion that no matter where you come from, no matter who you are, you can't survive an onslaught from the press. Not even Wenger did, despite everything he did for them. When they go after you, the writing is on the wall. Ferguson's probably the only (famous) proof of the contrary but that was 40 years ago. Even Bielsa was sacked by Leeds. Only thing you can do is hope that you're record will be too good to question or that they'll pick on someone else.
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Hoddle and Ardiles were not sacked for media then fan led pressures
 
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alekaras said:
This may be the most important thing he brings to the dressing room. Something that no other manager we were looking at has. We have good players. We just need them to feel confident and be allowed to express themselves. And feel that the manager cares about them and has their back, rather than throw them under the bus to save his own hide.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1681783848575664128
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Exactly!
Much like Redknapp, Jol and Poch.

Jose and Conte needed robots.
 
billyiddo said:
This seems a bit chicken and egg to me, the press circle like vultures any manager going through a tough time and ultimately managers who go through extended periods of poor results will inevitably get the sack - managers don't get sacked because the press get on their case they get the sack for underperforming
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Would you say Nuno went through an 'extended period of poor results'?

Now, let's imagine for a second that, instead of having 'anonymous sources' complaining about the quality of training sessions, the vibe had been 'it's too early to judge' or 'it's a work in progress'. A manager's work is never black and white: you can always find positives and negatives. It also depends on where you set the bar for success and failure. It's always a matter of perception. IIRC, Moyes held the record for the lowest league points total early in his Everton tenure and yet they persisted with him. And what about your friend Pochettino? Didn't he deserved more time considering his past record? Do you think he would have got the sack with the exact same results but everybody in the press pointing at his miraculous achievements after each and every setback? We'll never know for sure, obviously, but I think he'd have lasted a lot longer.

On the other hand, I believe that fan pressure, unless reaching extraordinary levels, is completely irrelevant. You'd have to create an incredibly toxic atmosphere for a club to consider sacking a manager because of fan pressure. A surprisingly high number of football directors still believe the media to be some sort of link between them and the common fan. They don't have their own agendas, they simply translate the 'mood' around the club.
 
DeanoAustin said:
I hope you're right, I really do. But I'm not sure it's that black and white.

To be fair to Conte, towards the end of his reign, he returned to the dugout prematurely and risked damaging his health. That's not the actions of a man who had downed tools.

There is merit in your last sentence but it'll ultimately come down to a mixture of that and competence/results. If we're leaking goals and getting beaten then no matter how nice Ange is to the players, he'll be out of here like so many before him.
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I said at the time they were the actions of a very selfish and foolish man. Ignoring doctor's orders, not thinking about the implications on his wife/family, only in trying to show he could 'be back' when what he really needed to do was listen to professional advice, rest, get strong again and not interfere with the club/send confusion around the dressing room...I had also said the death of Ventrone had robbed him of his consigliari PLUS it looked to have sparked something of a life crisis in him (he away from family). I think the noble thing would've been for him to leave gracefully in December.
 
thfcsteff said:
I said at the time they were the actions of a very selfish and foolish man. Ignoring doctor's orders, not thinking about the implications on his wife/family, only in trying to show he could 'be back' when what he really needed to do was listen to professional advice, rest, get strong again and not interfere with the club/send confusion around the dressing room...I had also said the death of Ventrone had robbed him of his consigliari PLUS it looked to have sparked something of a life crisis in him (he away from family). I think the noble thing would've been for him to leave gracefully in December.
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Would you rather we'd have gone for the Stelieni and Mason dream team in December? That would have put us just above the relegation zone in my opinion considering our slide down the table from the point we parted ways with Conte.

Bit harsh calling Conte selfish for coming back early, foolish yes but you only find out your limits by testing them. For Antonio I bet it was driving him crazy not being able to be involved. Not sure about what confusion you think he caused in the dressing room on his return though, that seems to me a bit like filling in blanks as to match your view, but perhaps you may have heard / read something I haven't on that front.

As for a life crisis, I wouldn't think it was sparked by Ventrone's passing, it's just what inevitably happens when you manage Spurs and have high expectations and a reputation of success. That combined with this group of players where pretty much every type of approach has been taken with them and it hasn't been enough, even with the huge upgrades to the clubs infastructure. Oh to have stayed at WHL for a couple more seasons when we made it a fortress, I do believe we were on the verge of something special.

Fortunately for Ange if people are happy with a 10th place finish whilst playing "attractive" or "attacking" football then it should be easier going but my guess would be that'd be disappointing for the manager. Imo it wouldn't be total a disaster as long as we didn't completely fold in the cup competitions and showed signs of progression as the season develops. That said if it takes another 30 goal effort from Kane and he leaves on a free it'll mean a totally different way of playing for the season after but that's a few hypothetical bridges to cross when we come to them.
 
spurspinter1 said:
Would you rather we'd have gone for the Stelieni and Mason dream team in December? That would have put us just above the relegation zone in my opinion considering our slide down the table from the point we parted ways with Conte.

Bit harsh calling Conte selfish for coming back early, foolish yes but you only find out your limits by testing them. For Antonio I bet it was driving him crazy not being able to be involved. Not sure about what confusion you think he caused in the dressing room on his return though, that seems to me a bit like filling in blanks as to match your view, but perhaps you may have heard / read something I haven't on that front.

As for a life crisis, I wouldn't think it was sparked by Ventrone's passing, it's just what inevitably happens when you manage Spurs and have high expectations and a reputation of success. That combined with this group of players where pretty much every type of approach has been taken with them and it hasn't been enough, even with the huge upgrades to the clubs infastructure. Oh to have stayed at WHL for a couple more seasons when we made it a fortress, I do believe we were on the verge of something special.

Fortunately for Ange if people are happy with a 10th place finish whilst playing "attractive" or "attacking" football then it should be easier going but my guess would be that'd be disappointing for the manager. Imo it wouldn't be total a disaster as long as we didn't completely fold in the cup competitions and showed signs of progression as the season develops. That said if it takes another 30 goal effort from Kane and he leaves on a free it'll mean a totally different way of playing for the season after but that's a few hypothetical bridges to cross when we come to them.
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Don't think anyone would be happy with that. But, for me, it'd be just about acceptable in year 1. Any lower and he's looking at a P45. There is some room between "happy" and "unacceptable".

It's actually one I've pondered though since yesterday because I called some Spurs fans idiots if they want him out before 6 months. And I have to confess, I was one of those who wanted Nuno out after 3 months albeit I wasn't part of the booing at the United game. So, let's say Ange is looking completely out of his depth by October and his tactics are exposed by United, Liverpool and Chelsea and others as being "Ossie-level-naive-on-steroids". Would people still be happy for him to continue?
 
DeanoAustin said:
Don't think anyone would be happy with that. But, for me, it'd be just about acceptable in year 1. Any lower and he's looking at a P45. There is some room between "happy" and "unacceptable".

It's actually one I've pondered though since yesterday because I called some Spurs fans idiots if they want him out before 6 months. And I have to confess, I was one of those who wanted Nuno out after 3 months albeit I wasn't part of the booing at the United game. So, let's say Ange is looking completely out of his depth by October and his tactics are exposed by United, Liverpool and Chelsea and others as being "Ossie-level-naive-on-steroids". Would people still be happy for him to continue?
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I think the differences in football between a Nuno and Ange would probably help, even if the results looked poor, with Nuno going through a game and half without a shot on target or whatever it was (was it not something like one shot in three games) there is absolute no hiding place and also it will just always seem alot worse. I think where Ange gets a longer pass is that no one is deluded in how much there is to unpick at Spurs in order to restitch it to a style that a manager wants to implement for a long time. I think there will be a need for certain players to leave and maybe some more bleeding to happen in the bigger picture for it to truly happen. Not sure that answers your question
 
Grays_1890 said:
I think the differences in football between a Nuno and Ange would probably help, even if the results looked poor, with Nuno going through a game and half without a shot on target or whatever it was (was it not something like one shot in three games) there is absolute no hiding place and also it will just always seem alot worse. I think where Ange gets a longer pass is that no one is deluded in how much there is to unpick at Spurs in order to restitch it to a style that a manager wants to implement for a long time. I think there will be a need for certain players to leave and maybe some more bleeding to happen in the bigger picture for it to truly happen. Not sure that answers your question
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I'm not sure I can answer my question to be honest. Generally, I'm on the "give the manager some time" train but after United, I just couldn't see it working with Nuno. It wasn't just that game to be fair, the Chelsea game, the Palace game. There were a few stinking performances. Can I see it getting to that stage quickly with Ange? We've a very tough run of home fixtures starting off. If we take a couple of batterings, it'd be interesting to see how the crowd reacts.
 
DeanoAustin said:
I'm not sure I can answer my question to be honest. Generally, I'm on the "give the manager some time" train but after United, I just couldn't see it working with Nuno. It wasn't just that game to be fair, the Chelsea game, the Palace game. There were a few stinking performances. Can I see it getting to that stage quickly with Ange? We've a very tough run of home fixtures starting off. If we take a couple of batterings, it'd be interesting to see how the crowd reacts.
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I think Bournemouth, Burnley, Sheff might be the help needed to bed in. I think Brentford away is tough but a fair opener, they are very open in their play too which might help. Who knows ey haha
 
Grays_1890 said:
I think Bournemouth, Burnley, Sheff might be the help needed to bed in. I think Brentford away is tough but a fair opener, they are very open in their play too which might help. Who knows ey haha
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Haha you just know we're losing to Sheffield United, Burnley, Bournemouth and Brentford and we'll beat United, Chelsea and Liverpool (for the first time in forever).
 
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