Welcome Ange: To Dare is to Didgeridoo

[Lemonade Money]

Have I missed the talk of who is going to be captain, post Hugo?

Well this could get awkward. Obvious choice would be Kane if he stayed, but without any assurance he's staying, it could end up being Dier! Can't find any evidence of Bentancur or Romero being a captain. Maybe we'll go Kane regardless.

 

[spurspinter1]

Don't think anyone would be happy with that. But, for me, it'd be just about acceptable in year 1. Any lower and he's looking at a P45. There is some room between "happy" and "unacceptable".

It's actually one I've pondered though since yesterday because I called some Spurs fans idiots if they want him out before 6 months. And I have to confess, I was one of those who wanted Nuno out after 3 months albeit I wasn't part of the booing at the United game. So, let's say Ange is looking completely out of his depth by October and his tactics are exposed by United, Liverpool and Chelsea and others as being "Ossie-level-naive-on-steroids". Would people still be happy for him to continue?

Maybe it's posturing but I've seen a lot of people who are happy for a lower league position in place of more attacking football. Quite how we scored so many goals last season whilst apparently not playing attacking football is another discussion I suppose.

We should expect a tough start and getting turned over like Man Utd did by Brighton is a distinct possibility, it'll be how we respond to setbacks like that as if we getting battered every game up to October a lot of the good vibes will be put to the test. For me we've tried every other approach so it's not like it's last chance saloon for the club but hopefully the fans as a whole can give the new guy time as he settles in to PL football. Even with the upgrade of training ground / stadium, we have a small to medium club mentality that suits an up and comer rather than a serial winner (of competitions at the highest level)

I do hope that we can enjoy the current set up and the journey without the need to constantly slag off the last few managers but that's a big ask, as I said on the thread before, the comparisons won't help and we have a clean slate where Ange can make his impression on the team.

 

[Grays_1890]

Maybe it's posturing but I've seen a lot of people who are happy for a lower league position in place of more attacking football. Quite how we scored so many goals last season whilst apparently not playing attacking football is another discussion I suppose.

We should expect a tough start and getting turned over like Man Utd did by Brighton is a distinct possibility, it'll be how we respond to setbacks like that as if we getting battered every game up to October a lot of the good vibes will be put to the test. For me we've tried every other approach so it's not like it's last chance saloon for the club but hopefully the fans as a whole can give the new guy time as he settles in to PL football. Even with the upgrade of training ground / stadium, we have a small to medium club mentality that suits an up and comer rather than a serial winner (of competitions at the highest level)

I do hope that we can enjoy the current set up and the journey without the need to constantly slag off the last few managers but that's a big ask, as I said on the thread before, the comparisons won't help and we have a clean slate where Ange can make his impression on the team.

I think we have in the grand scheme of football we have always been a medium club, the cup wins coming at a rate or 17 trophies over 140 years certainly does not put us in the upper echelons of success over our history. Being objective I think where we have messed up over the last 5 years IMO is the new born belief, from Levy, yes Levy, is that we believed we made it to the promised land and were at a stage to appoint a Jose and Conte, ripping up what made us successful (not as a slight to either) in which was invest in youth, even if that includes the pain of flipping them to bigger clubs (bigger clubs poaching talent is always a thing) and have a team that was full of energy and in some ways lower risk than the route we decided where we also burned cash buying high fee disappointments. I don't see Ange as a full proof plan, everything comes with a risk but I do at least see it as an admission that we are not the club we believe we were, with the ground and the training ground and work still needs to be done. I am optimistic on Ange for all the reasons mentioned and yeh I have slighted the previous managers, but thats as much for them being the wrong fit for us and thats on Levy 100%.

The PL is tough and if it takes a year or two to get back on track I take a bigger picture view of so be it, I am 40 years old so with the best health in the world I have another 30 years watching us, so the rebuild does not phase me, if we play decent football its a plus, its still an entertainment for me and if we win things thats even better of course. But I never ever felt a dependency on winning trophies for what I see as an intrinsic love or enjoyment of following Spurs, thats not to say I don't want us to win things, I do more than anyone, but I am also respectful that there are scores of other clubs out there that are trying to do the same thing and as per scores of previous discussions I don't feel the need to apportion blame on why we have not won many of the finals and semi finals over the past 20 years, I also don't feel as let down by that as some clearly do, at the very least I take a greater interest and love for what we do every day than feel hurt by those individual moments.

 

[Yiddo]

I’m willing to give Ange until December next year as long as we don’t get relegated.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

I think we have in the grand scheme of football we have always been a medium club, the cup wins coming at a rate or 17 trophies over 140 years certainly does not put us in the upper echelons of success over our history. Being objective I think where we have messed up over the last 5 years IMO is the new born belief, from Levy, yes Levy, is that we believed we made it to the promised land and were at a stage to appoint a Jose and Conte, ripping up what made us successful (not as a slight to either) in which was invest in youth, even if that includes the pain of flipping them to bigger clubs (bigger clubs poaching talent is always a thing) and have a team that was full of energy and in some ways lower risk than the route we decided where we also burned cash buying high fee disappointments. I don't see Ange as a full proof plan, everything comes with a risk but I do at least see it as an admission that we are not the club we believe we were, with the ground and the training ground and work still needs to be done. I am optimistic on Ange for all the reasons mentioned and yeh I have slighted the previous managers, but thats as much for them being the wrong fit for us and thats on Levy 100%.

The PL is tough and if it takes a year or two to get back on track I take a bigger picture view of so be it, I am 40 years old so with the best health in the world I have another 30 years watching us, so the rebuild does not phase me, if we play decent football its a plus, its still an entertainment for me and if we win things thats even better of course. But I never ever felt a dependency on winning trophies for what I see as an intrinsic love or enjoyment of following Spurs, thats not to say I don't want us to win things, I do more than anyone, but I am also respectful that there are scores of other clubs out there that are trying to do the same thing and as per scores of previous discussions I don't feel the need to apportion blame on why we have not won many of the finals and semi finals over the past 20 years, I also don't feel as let down by that as some clearly do, at the very least I take a greater interest and love for what we do every day than feel hurt by those individual moments.

All that’s changed is expectation
Not that long ago getting into Europe was an achievement… now it’s the very very minimum standard
Add on how we have progressed and fans and owners demand more and more and more without necessarily the patience to match at times

 

[monkeybarry]

Don't think anyone would be happy with that. But, for me, it'd be just about acceptable in year 1. Any lower and he's looking at a P45. There is some room between "happy" and "unacceptable".

It's actually one I've pondered though since yesterday because I called some Spurs fans idiots if they want him out before 6 months. And I have to confess, I was one of those who wanted Nuno out after 3 months albeit I wasn't part of the booing at the United game. So, let's say Ange is looking completely out of his depth by October and his tactics are exposed by United, Liverpool and Chelsea and others as being "Ossie-level-naive-on-steroids". Would people still be happy for him to continue?

If he's looking out of his depth, then you have to change - that's top level sport. Like Nuno. Not all his fault, but it was clear it wasn't going to work.

If it's clear there is a plan, progress and a togetherness (this is Key!), then middle table at Xmas is passable.
I expect we'll be 6/7th at Xmas. With a couple of batterings, a couple of silly defeats, some very very impressive wins and generally fun to watch.
I suspect we'll be Sky and MoTDs big focus - so many potential stories to come out of our season.
We'll be like the Daniel Riccardo in Drive to Survive.
Really, only us and Luton have an interesting story for this season. Unless Saudi Sportswashing Machine implode.

 

[monkeybarry]

Have I missed the talk of who is going to be captain, post Hugo?

It'll be Harry.
Vice captain? PEH if he stays. Wouldn't be surprised to see Skipp get either vice or 3rd Capt.

 

[DeanoAustin]

If he's looking out of his depth, then you have to change - that's top level sport. Like Nuno. Not all his fault, but it was clear it wasn't going to work.

If it's clear there is a plan, progress and a togetherness (this is Key!), then middle table at Xmas is passable.
I expect we'll be 6/7th at Xmas. With a couple of batterings, a couple of silly defeats, some very very impressive wins and generally fun to watch.
I suspect we'll be Sky and MoTDs big focus - so many potential stories to come out of our season.
We'll be like the Daniel Riccardo in Drive to Survive.
Really, only us and Luton have an interesting story for this season. Unless Saudi Sportswashing Machine implode.

Think you’ve just described Poch’s first season…

I agree with what you say though. However, one man’s “he’s out of his depth” is another man’s “he’s getting used to the club and needs time” and I guess those lines sometimes become very blurred. I hold no ill will towards Nuno but I absolutely still think it was right to fire him after 3 months so, while I will definitely want to give Ange time, I guess there is a scenario under which I could be on here posting that we should fire him in October.

And I then potentially become one of those macarons I spoke about yesterday. fudge my hypocrisy anyway…

 

[Mcfee]

If he's looking out of his depth, then you have to change - that's top level sport. Like Nuno. Not all his fault, but it was clear it wasn't going to work.

If it's clear there is a plan, progress and a togetherness (this is Key!), then middle table at Xmas is passable.
I expect we'll be 6/7th at Xmas. With a couple of batterings, a couple of silly defeats, some very very impressive wins and generally fun to watch.
I suspect we'll be Sky and MoTDs big focus - so many potential stories to come out of our season.
We'll be like the Daniel Riccardo in Drive to Survive.
Really, only us and Luton have an interesting story for this season. Unless Saudi Sportswashing Machine implode.

It was so obvious that we’d reached the bottom of the barrel when we hired Nuno he was on borrowed time from day 1. This feels different, I mean I’m not sure where Ange was on our preference list but he’s not another Nuno.

 

[Gazza Dazzla]

It was so obvious that we’d reached the bottom of the barrel when we hired Nuno he was on borrowed time from day 1. This feels different, I mean I’m not sure where Ange was on our preference list but he’s not another Nuno.

Exactly, Nuno was quite clearly a cheap stop gap until we could convince Conte. He was basically a patsy.

Ange is completely different.

 

[spurspinter1]

I think we have in the grand scheme of football we have always been a medium club, the cup wins coming at a rate or 17 trophies over 140 years certainly does not put us in the upper echelons of success over our history. Being objective I think where we have messed up over the last 5 years IMO is the new born belief, from Levy, yes Levy, is that we believed we made it to the promised land and were at a stage to appoint a Jose and Conte, ripping up what made us successful (not as a slight to either) in which was invest in youth, even if that includes the pain of flipping them to bigger clubs (bigger clubs poaching talent is always a thing) and have a team that was full of energy and in some ways lower risk than the route we decided where we also burned cash buying high fee disappointments. I don't see Ange as a full proof plan, everything comes with a risk but I do at least see it as an admission that we are not the club we believe we were, with the ground and the training ground and work still needs to be done. I am optimistic on Ange for all the reasons mentioned and yeh I have slighted the previous managers, but thats as much for them being the wrong fit for us and thats on Levy 100%.

The PL is tough and if it takes a year or two to get back on track I take a bigger picture view of so be it, I am 40 years old so with the best health in the world I have another 30 years watching us, so the rebuild does not phase me, if we play decent football its a plus, its still an entertainment for me and if we win things thats even better of course. But I never ever felt a dependency on winning trophies for what I see as an intrinsic love or enjoyment of following Spurs, thats not to say I don't want us to win things, I do more than anyone, but I am also respectful that there are scores of other clubs out there that are trying to do the same thing and as per scores of previous discussions I don't feel the need to apportion blame on why we have not won many of the finals and semi finals over the past 20 years, I also don't feel as let down by that as some clearly do, at the very least I take a greater interest and love for what we do every day than feel hurt by those individual moments.

Nothing I disagree with there, a solid evaluation, I'm very glad we have Ange as it suits the way we operate best as you say. Getting another elite guy like Ancelotti would have been trying the same thing again and it just isn't our modus operandi. I am still positive about the season even if people are getting a little giddy over a pre season loss to West Ham. If we can't sort out the CB situation my positivity will be tested as it's not giving the new boss a chance.

It's an oversimplification but Levy possibly thought "I've got the world class stadium, training facilities and a fair few nearing world class players, now all we need an elite manager" and it wasn't that simple as it doesn't match our identity. Jose and Conte weren't right for the club but those that make out they're bumbling idiots who know nothing about coaching are way off the mark but it's easier to blame them than the decision to hire them or the players who don't have the mentality required for those managers. I do think the Wembley move had already stunted our momentum as at the time we were feared at WHL and the players turned in to kittens in the vacuous national stadium. The finance spreadsheets look great and we have a brewery but oh what could have been.

The trophy thing, I get that people say "if we won one people would just say we need the win another" but one, just one would make such a difference in marking someone like Poch's reign to me or just the last spell where we have been mixing it up with the top clubs. It's not a media agenda that has made me disappointed, nor brick "banter" from opposition fans, but this subject has been done to death so much and probably best to bring it back to Ange.

 

[DeanoAustin]

I think we have in the grand scheme of football we have always been a medium club, the cup wins coming at a rate or 17 trophies over 140 years certainly does not put us in the upper echelons of success over our history. Being objective I think where we have messed up over the last 5 years IMO is the new born belief, from Levy, yes Levy, is that we believed we made it to the promised land and were at a stage to appoint a Jose and Conte, ripping up what made us successful (not as a slight to either) in which was invest in youth, even if that includes the pain of flipping them to bigger clubs (bigger clubs poaching talent is always a thing) and have a team that was full of energy and in some ways lower risk than the route we decided where we also burned cash buying high fee disappointments. I don't see Ange as a full proof plan, everything comes with a risk but I do at least see it as an admission that we are not the club we believe we were, with the ground and the training ground and work still needs to be done. I am optimistic on Ange for all the reasons mentioned and yeh I have slighted the previous managers, but thats as much for them being the wrong fit for us and thats on Levy 100%.

The PL is tough and if it takes a year or two to get back on track I take a bigger picture view of so be it, I am 40 years old so with the best health in the world I have another 30 years watching us, so the rebuild does not phase me, if we play decent football its a plus, its still an entertainment for me and if we win things thats even better of course. But I never ever felt a dependency on winning trophies for what I see as an intrinsic love or enjoyment of following Spurs, thats not to say I don't want us to win things, I do more than anyone, but I am also respectful that there are scores of other clubs out there that are trying to do the same thing and as per scores of previous discussions I don't feel the need to apportion blame on why we have not won many of the finals and semi finals over the past 20 years, I also don't feel as let down by that as some clearly do, at the very least I take a greater interest and love for what we do every day than feel hurt by those individual moments.

That’s a magnificent post, fair play. @spurspinter1 makes a great point on those people calling Jose and Conte inept too. Despite their faults, they are both top football managers.

One question though. You have 30 years left watching Spurs? I’m 44 next month, I’m counting on a little longer than that…

 

[parklane1]

That’s a magnificent post, fair play. @spurspinter1 makes a great point on those people calling Jose and Conte inept too. Despite their faults, they are both top football managers.

One question though. You have 30 years left watching Spurs? I’m 44 next month, I’m counting on a little longer than that…

So many youngsters about on here.

 

[Grays_1890]

That’s a magnificent post, fair play. @spurspinter1 makes a great point on those people calling Jose and Conte inept too. Despite their faults, they are both top football managers.

One question though. You have 30 years left watching Spurs? I’m 44 next month, I’m counting on a little longer than that…

Cheers mate

Haha I wasn't wanting to tempt fate

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Nothing I disagree with there, a solid evaluation, I'm very glad we have Ange as it suits the way we operate best as you say. Getting another elite guy like Ancelotti would have been trying the same thing again and it just isn't our modus operandi. I am still positive about the season even if people are getting a little giddy over a pre season loss to West Ham. If we can't sort out the CB situation my positivity will be tested as it's not giving the new boss a chance.

It's an oversimplification but Levy possibly thought "I've got the world class stadium, training facilities and a fair few nearing world class players, now all we need an elite manager" and it wasn't that simple as it doesn't match our identity. Jose and Conte weren't right for the club but those that make out they're bumbling idiots who know nothing about coaching are way off the mark but it's easier to blame them than the decision to hire them or the players who don't have the mentality required for those managers. I do think the Wembley move had already stunted our momentum as at the time we were feared at WHL and the players turned in to kittens in the vacuous national stadium. The finance spreadsheets look great and we have a brewery but oh what could have been.

The trophy thing, I get that people say "if we won one people would just say we need the win another" but one, just one would make such a difference in marking someone like Poch's reign to me or just the last spell where we have been mixing it up with the top clubs. It's not a media agenda that has made me disappointed, nor brick "banter" from opposition fans, but this subject has been done to death so much and probably best to bring it back to Ange.

One trophy can elevate the mentality
It’s a hurdle the club has to get over again

 

[thfcsteff]

Would you rather we'd have gone for the Stelieni and Mason dream team in December? That would have put us just above the relegation zone in my opinion considering our slide down the table from the point we parted ways with Conte.

Bit harsh calling Conte selfish for coming back early, foolish yes but you only find out your limits by testing them. For Antonio I bet it was driving him crazy not being able to be involved. Not sure about what confusion you think he caused in the dressing room on his return though, that seems to me a bit like filling in blanks as to match your view, but perhaps you may have heard / read something I haven't on that front.

As for a life crisis, I wouldn't think it was sparked by Ventrone's passing, it's just what inevitably happens when you manage Spurs and have high expectations and a reputation of success. That combined with this group of players where pretty much every type of approach has been taken with them and it hasn't been enough, even with the huge upgrades to the clubs infastructure. Oh to have stayed at WHL for a couple more seasons when we made it a fortress, I do believe we were on the verge of something special.

Fortunately for Ange if people are happy with a 10th place finish whilst playing "attractive" or "attacking" football then it should be easier going but my guess would be that'd be disappointing for the manager. Imo it wouldn't be total a disaster as long as we didn't completely fold in the cup competitions and showed signs of progression as the season develops. That said if it takes another 30 goal effort from Kane and he leaves on a free it'll mean a totally different way of playing for the season after but that's a few hypothetical bridges to cross when we come to them.

A lot to answer here, agree on many points, not on others, as always some great thinking/talking points and I'll be back when I have the time they deserve.

 

[K.D.D.D.D.Soc]

I'm probably a lot different from most on here with my views on Spurs, I go to matches or watch wanting to be entertained and have an enjoyable time, I would love us to win every game and pick up many trophies, but if we don't it's not the end of the world, I accept there will be times we get beat either by a better team or our own inadequacies. I come from a generation where "sport" was a leisure activity to be enjoyed not a commercial business or schedule filling tv. So a manager who wants to play a more offensive type of football appeals to me and I hope I start to get more pleasure from watching us rather than I have recently.

 

[harr1984]

I'm probably a lot different from most on here with my views on Spurs, I go to matches or watch wanting to be entertained and have an enjoyable time, I would love us to win every game and pick up many trophies, but if we don't it's not the end of the world, I accept there will be times we get beat either by a better team or our own inadequate. I come from a generation where "sport" was a leisure activity to be enjoyed not a commercial business or schedule filling tv. So a manager who wants to play a more offensive type of football appeals to me and I hope I start to get more pleasure from watching us rather than I have recently.

I think for younger generations they are social media obsessed and so all Spurs fans get is being goaded for never winning trophies etc and it is only natural that will get to you and therefore winning trophies is a greater priority. Whereas I'm guessing someone such as yourself doesn't involve themselves much in that side of things. Obviously you get that just from face to face interaction with friends etc aswell but it really is rammed down your throat on social media, thankfully I don't live on there.

I do kind of wish I'd been around in earlier times as things seemed to be much more authentic then, even the way the modern game has everything system based which in some ways is impressive but also can flush out the brilliance of mavericks - I'm not sure how a Ginola or Jose Dominguez D) would have fared in todays game.

I think the consensus on this board is definitely after the last few years everyone just wants to enjoy a good brand of football again, and see signs of progression which we will definitely get under Ange. But you can bet your bottom dollar it will only be a season or two before people again get restless about winning things etc.....

 

[Grays_1890]

I think for younger generations they are social media obsessed and so all Spurs fans get is being goaded for never winning trophies etc and it is only natural that will get to you and therefore winning trophies is a greater priority. Whereas I'm guessing someone such as yourself doesn't involve themselves much in that side of things. Obviously you get that just from face to face interaction with friends etc aswell but it really is rammed down your throat on social media, thankfully I don't live on there.

I do kind of wish I'd been around in earlier times as things seemed to be much more authentic then, even the way the modern game has everything system based which in some ways is impressive but also can flush out the brilliance of mavericks - I'm not sure how a Ginola or Jose Dominguez D) would have fared in todays game.

I think the consensus on this board is definitely after the last few years everyone just wants to enjoy a good brand of football again, and see signs of progression which we will definitely get under Ange. But you can bet your bottom dollar it will only be a season or two before people again get restless about winning things etc.....

Absolutely this and with that there is, or at least for me, a sense that rather than a siege mentality from the fans, there are those that have decided to goad their own club because it somehow separates themselves from the failure and they can somehow feel better about it and themselves, its definitely seen a blame culture develop, not that its exclusive to Spurs.

I always think you learn more In the harder times and that's probably a period to close ranks, others feel the need to slate absolutely everything we do and add an extra layer of fuel to the negativity

 

[K.D.D.D.D.Soc]

I think for younger generations they are social media obsessed and so all Spurs fans get is being goaded for never winning trophies etc and it is only natural that will get to you and therefore winning trophies is a greater priority. Whereas I'm guessing someone such as yourself doesn't involve themselves much in that side of things. Obviously you get that just from face to face interaction with friends etc aswell but it really is rammed down your throat on social media, thankfully I don't live on there.

I do kind of wish I'd been around in earlier times as things seemed to be much more authentic then, even the way the modern game has everything system based which in some ways is impressive but also can flush out the brilliance of mavericks - I'm not sure how a Ginola or Jose Dominguez D) would have fared in todays game.

I think the consensus on this board is definitely after the last few years everyone just wants to enjoy a good brand of football again, and see signs of progression which we will definitely get under Ange. But you can bet your bottom dollar it will only be a season or two before people again get restless about winning things etc.....

Definitely get the feeling that players have to play to a rigid system these days, I can see it improves team play when it works but individuals don't get the chance to use their skill or intelligence in some cases. I think Foden and Saka look shadows of the club performances in Englands set up.