Welcome Ange: To Dare is to Didgeridoo

[papaspur]

To be clear, I'm not going to judge him after 6 months. For me, that'd be lunacy. Unfortunately, like most clubs, we have our share of lunatics that will and they'll be the ones putting him under pressure if things don't work out. See Nuno.

I agree with much of what you've said there but it could get ugly if we're conceding goals and defenders are making mistakes. Look at how Royal and Sanchez were treated last year. Many Spurs fans won't just shrug their shoulders and say "Well, they're putting in effort and we're playing attacking football. So be it." And that sort of atmosphere could have a killer impact on our lads. It's hard to take risks in that environment.

I'd give Ange a year or two personally unless we're in a relegation dogfight. He has us playing well and in the top half in year one and that'd be just about acceptable for me.

Gotcha, I mean what you're saying is all sensible and definitely grounded in history. I think as long as most of the fans can be reasonable, maybe there will be less disgruntlement if the attacking play is promising. And speaking of the fans, you are right in that they turned on certain players so expecting them to be reasonable might be a hard ask. You're absolutely right about the fans, but my hope is that Ange and the players fight for each other. Sometimes siege mentality can be a good thing if things get to that point.

I was optimistic for Conte because of his record. I'm optimistic about Ange because of his style/mentality.
Ange has got his beliefs and principles and as you said, it could be the hill he chooses to die on. So far, it seems like he won't make any excuses for himself and he owns any mistakes or inadequacies in the team.

 

[Grays_1890]

Gotcha, I mean what you're saying is all sensible and definitely grounded in history. I think as long as most of the fans can be reasonable, maybe there will be less disgruntlement if the attacking play is promising. And speaking of the fans, you are right in that they turned on certain players so expecting them to be reasonable might be a hard ask. You're absolutely right about the fans, but my hope is that Ange and the players fight for each other. Sometimes siege mentality can be a good thing if things get to that point.

I was optimistic for Conte because of his record. I'm optimistic about Ange because of his style/mentality.
Ange has got his beliefs and principles and as you said, it could be the hill he chooses to die on. So far, it seems like he won't make any excuses for himself and he owns any mistakes or inadequacies in the team.

I also think that if players have a level of freedom then mistakes are not so under the scope in the attacking sense. If you are playing the low block counter attack style then any mistake is compounded by the fact that you have limited chances, where as if your ethos is to have alot more possession and you are serving up 15-20 chances, players can be and will be forgiven for mistakes in attacking areas because the mistakes won't be as costly (in theory). This can all arguably be undone by the defence but I also think that a style where you keep the ball for longer periods means more concentration in playing your part than having to take waves of attacks, so I think the style will eventually take a burden off the backline, it just might take time.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Gotcha, I mean what you're saying is all sensible and definitely grounded in history. I think as long as most of the fans can be reasonable, maybe there will be less disgruntlement if the attacking play is promising. And speaking of the fans, you are right in that they turned on certain players so expecting them to be reasonable might be a hard ask. You're absolutely right about the fans, but my hope is that Ange and the players fight for each other. Sometimes siege mentality can be a good thing if things get to that point.

I was optimistic for Conte because of his record. I'm optimistic about Ange because of his style/mentality.
Ange has got his beliefs and principles and as you said, it could be the hill he chooses to die on. So far, it seems like he won't make any excuses for himself and he owns any mistakes or inadequacies in the team.

Conte and ange bith have great records if you allow for the relative nature
They win titles in leagues they manage
One thing I have seen and heard that’s different so far… and it’s a very small sample
Where ange has been the fans love him even when he leaves
With conte… not that I’ve seen (and I’ll say again I haven’t done much research)

 

[Grays_1890]

Conte and ange bith have great records if you allow for the relative nature
They win titles in leagues they manage
One thing I have seen and heard that’s different so far… and it’s a very small sample
Where ange has been the fans love him even when he leaves
With conte… not that I’ve seen (and I’ll say again I haven’t done much research)

And the difference from what I can see so far is that unlike Conte and Jose, the success and record is not seen as a cure all and he is very open about the work needed to be done and seems more in tune with developing whats needed. There is alot of previously paid high cost talent that needs to be tapped into something that neither the previous two were going to do, one very vocally so

 

[Bedfordspurs]

And the difference from what I can see so far is that unlike Conte and Jose, the success and record is not seen as a cure all and he is very open about the work needed to be done and seems more in tune with developing whats needed. There is alot of previously paid high cost talent that needs to be tapped into something that neither the previous two were going to do, one very vocally so

He isn’t saying my way is the way to win
He so saying I’ll work with what we have to get the best I can and we will get better

 

[tommysvr]

You're also right, a record doesn't guarantee anything. But I can't help look at two winners like Mourinho and Conte and they failed here. Ultimately, the job is about winning games and those lads are much better at it than Ange based on history. However, if he is successful, it wouldn't be the first time that logic was defied by football.

I think Mourinho and Conte mostly failed because they just never matched the culture of our club. It might be hard to define what that is exactly, but I think we can all feel it. And I think, with time, most Spurs fans will agree that Ange does fit the culture of our club. It's the main reason I was banging on about him for a few months before his appointment.

The results...obviously we all want to win. But in a league (and sport) that's only getting more and more stretched by the dodgiest of financial sources, I'll take just enjoyable football and the odd cup win to make me happy.

 

[Mr Gogolak]

Regardless of what happens on the pitch (bar some incredibly good or poor sequences of results), his fate will be sealed by the media - as usual, I might add. When many journalits go after a guy's head, it's very rare that they don't get their wish, sooner or later. Being a nice guy could help him. Maybe they'll go easy on him or maybe there'll be better targets elsewhere. But we all know what kind of munitions they'll use if we get hammered early on or if getting our first win of the season takes a little too long.

Fans are just a means to an end, in that respect. There's a background noise, a 'negative vibe' if you will: it gets to the players, to the fans and there's very little you can do as a manager to turn things around when week in, week out pundits and journalists tell everyone who'd listen that you're a miscast, out of your depth, lucky to get a win and so on. Just like everyone else, I wish him the best but, in my experience as a fan, no matter how much goodwill you get from the fans, it's important to keep the press on your side.

 

[Grays_1890]

Regardless of what happens on the pitch (bar some incredibly good or poor sequences of results), his fate will be sealed by the media - as usual, I might add. When many journalits go after a guy's head, it's very rare that they don't get their wish, sooner or later. Being a nice guy could help him. Maybe they'll go easy on him or maybe there'll be better targets elsewhere. But we all know what kind of munitions they'll use if we get hammered early on or if getting our first win of the season takes a little too long.

Fans are just a means to an end, in that respect. There's a background noise, a 'negative vibe' if you will: it gets to the players, to the fans and there's very little you can do as a manager to turn things around when week in, week out pundits and journalists tell everyone who'd listen that you're a miscast, out of your depth, lucky to get a win and so on. Just like everyone else, I wish him the best but, in my experience as a fan, no matter how much goodwill you get from the fans, it's important to keep the press on your side.

I agree the media will be looking to manipulate things, its what they do, but the fans need to play their part too.

There will be many fans waiting behind the bushes for the first whiff of failure in order to come out and call him the last resort manager, cheap and to try and churn the whole negativity (Its all been said in part already). Where the reality is, if fans really want change and want to get onboard with this they can and can play their part fully, time will tell like with alot of it

If fans can get beyond the histrionics and berating players and manager as a route to get to Levy then we might have half a chance on the pitch. Fans calling Manor Solomon a cheap player and a typical Levy purchase is cheap and not really fair on the player

 

[DeanoAustin]

I think Mourinho and Conte mostly failed because they just never matched the culture of our club. It might be hard to define what that is exactly, but I think we can all feel it. And I think, with time, most Spurs fans will agree that Ange does fit the culture of our club. It's the main reason I was banging on about him for a few months before his appointment.

The results...obviously we all want to win. But in a league (and sport) that's only getting more and more stretched by the dodgiest of financial sources, I'll take just enjoyable football and the odd cup win to make me happy.

Yeah I think, with hindsight for me as I kinda wanted both, you could see why Jose and Conte didn't fit. The football was, for the most part, brick and neither gave any impression that they loved football for a lot of the reasons I, and I'm sure other Spurs fans, love the game. They put results a long way above everything else. I love watching good football.

There's a great opportunity for Ange here. There's a narrative waiting to be written. A cautionary tale about appointing people who don't fit your culture, the glory of what happens when you get it right. If he did get us punching above our weight, I think our fan base would get behind him. He's charismatic, he speaks brilliantly, he's trying to play the right way - the potential upside is huge. I don't think even the most unreasonable of our fans expect a title charge. Top 4 and good football would get the entire fan base behind him. That'd be massive success in my book but I'd love it to happen. Even top half and good football in year one would be success of sorts for me.

But...there's a nagging voice at the back of my head that says "when all's said and done, this will come down to results and do I back a guy who is very new to this level to win more games than great managers like Conte and Mourinho". And that's the bit I have difficulty with.

 

[JerusalemMan]

Again, more words of his that I can get on board with:


"You know there are consequences if we don't get that right [in playing it out from the back] but I'm trying to provide a security and a structure to the players to encourage them to release that fear and play that kind of football. That's the kind of team we want to be. At the moment there will be missteps along the way - that's only natural, but I'm trying to make sure the players understand that veering away or shying away from that will mean us playing the kind of football that I don't want us to play.
So we have to be all in on this stuff. For the most part I think they were trying to be that, but obviously at times it didn't flow as well because we weren't really sure about what position to take up, but the good thing is that at least we've got moments there where we can show them that under extreme pressure, you can get these kind of outcomes, which allows us then to work on it."

 

[parklane1]

There is no doubt he has a BIG job on his hands to restore some of the confidence back to players who looked shell shocked for most of last season. Can he do it well i guess we will see but IF we get playing well then players will soon buy into what he wants/requires. My biggest fear/doubt is a section of our fans who are expecting to much too soon and if it does not go well in the first few months will get on their bandwagon ( again) and demand the usual ( manager is brick, players are crap and its all Levys fault).

I will be happy if we show improvement in our team play and see that progress is being made, however it will not happen overnight and we will have bad days and i hope the usual subject refrain from booing cetain players, screaming for new owners and so on.

 

[DeanoAustin]

Again, more words of his that I can get on board with:


"You know there are consequences if we don't get that right [in playing it out from the back] but I'm trying to provide a security and a structure to the players to encourage them to release that fear and play that kind of football. That's the kind of team we want to be. At the moment there will be missteps along the way - that's only natural, but I'm trying to make sure the players understand that veering away or shying away from that will mean us playing the kind of football that I don't want us to play.
So we have to be all in on this stuff. For the most part I think they were trying to be that, but obviously at times it didn't flow as well because we weren't really sure about what position to take up, but the good thing is that at least we've got moments there where we can show them that under extreme pressure, you can get these kind of outcomes, which allows us then to work on it."

And this is where we play our part. Having 60,000 people boo a player is the best way to kill this approach. These lads are human and the fear of being turned on, like Royal and Sanchez were last season and many before them, will see them hide and refuse to take risks. That's a natural reaction and we saw both Royal and Sanchez having to be hauled off over the crowds' reaction last season.

I didn't see the West Ham game but I saw the two aforementioned involved in a bit of play in our corner that was outstanding and saw us progress brilliantly up the pitch. But there will be times where they and others try that and give it away and we potentially concede.

At matches, you'll hear "we want good football" but you'll hear the same people shout "don't do it there" or "just get it up the pitch". You can't do all of that together.

There really is a lot of onus on the match going crowd if this is to work.

 

[Grays_1890]

And this is where we play our part. Having 60,000 people boo a player is the best way to kill this approach. These lads are human and the fear of being turned on, like Royal and Sanchez were last season and many before them, will see them hide and refuse to take risks. That's a natural reaction and we saw both Royal and Sanchez having to be hauled off over the crowds' reaction last season.

I didn't see the West Ham game but I saw the two aforementioned involved in a bit of play in our corner that was outstanding and saw us progress brilliantly up the pitch. But there will be times where they and others try that and give it away and we potentially concede.

At matches, you'll hear "we want good football" but you'll hear the same people shout "don't do it there" or "just get it up the pitch". You can't do all of that together.

There really is a lot of onus on the match going crowd if this is to work.

Absolutely this and this again, even Sanchez mistake yesterday was more a case of him being caught in what was the middle of a press or drop, now I know people will have their views on Sanchez, I do to, but if thats a new defender coming in doing that I think we have to follow the managers lead on him saying he is asking the to do alien things so to go easy on them, if he can, we should be able to IMO. We have been destroyers of confidence far too often at Spurs, that needs to change.

 

[JerusalemMan]

And this is where we play our part. Having 60,000 people boo a player is the best way to kill this approach. These lads are human and the fear of being turned on, like Royal and Sanchez were last season and many before them, will see them hide and refuse to take risks. That's a natural reaction and we saw both Royal and Sanchez having to be hauled off over the crowds' reaction last season.

I didn't see the West Ham game but I saw the two aforementioned involved in a bit of play in our corner that was outstanding and saw us progress brilliantly up the pitch. But there will be times where they and others try that and give it away and we potentially concede.

At matches, you'll hear "we want good football" but you'll hear the same people shout "don't do it there" or "just get it up the pitch". You can't do all of that together.

There really is a lot of onus on the match going crowd if this is to work.

I expect Postecoglu is the sort of character to feel confident in coming out after matches and address comments directly to fans if he perceives their reaction is unhelpful to what he's trying to do.

 

[Grays_1890]

I expect Postecoglu is the sort of character to feel confident in coming out after matches and address comments directly to fans if he perceives their reaction is unhelpful to what he's trying to do.

And importantly keep things inhouse should he feel the need to berate players.

 

[tommysvr]

I expect Postecoglu is the sort of character to feel confident in coming out after matches and address comments directly to fans if he perceives their reaction is unhelpful to what he's trying to do.

Exactly right. Ange also takes full responsibility - he'll never hang a player out to dry like Conte did.

 

[parklane1]

I expect Postecoglu is the sort of character to feel confident in coming out after matches and address comments directly to fans if he perceives their reaction is unhelpful to what he's trying to do.

Those who boo their own players are muppets, i am sure Postecoglu will willingly do that but sadly it will fall on deaf ears. (after all they pay their money so should be allowed to boo would be their answer)

 

[DeanoAustin]

Those who boo their own players are muppets, i am sure Postecoglu will willingly do that but sadly it will fall on deaf ears. (after all they pay their money so should be allowed to boo would be their answer)

Don't disagree but it's a fine line to walk and he needs to be careful. He comes out and has a go at the crowd and the headlines are "Under Pressure Postecoglu attacks Spurs fans" and pressure ramps up on him. He's got to be very explicit if he does take this approach who he is aiming his criticism at.

Also agree on your opinion on fans who boo or abuse their own players. For me, even paying £80 to watch a game does not entitle you to abuse players. I can just about live with booing the team at full time if the performance has been brick but it serves no purpose to round on individuals IMO.

 

[Grays_1890]

Don't disagree but it's a fine line to walk and he needs to be careful. He comes out and has a go at the crowd and the headlines are "Under Pressure Postecoglu attacks Spurs fans" and pressure ramps up on him. He's got to be very explicit if he does take this approach who he is aiming his criticism at.

Also agree on your opinion on fans who boo or abuse their own players. For me, even paying £80 to watch a game does not entitle you to abuse players. I can just about live with booing the team at full time if the performance has been brick but it serves no purpose to round on individuals IMO.

I have always been of the view that you touch yourself you takes your choice, money and how much people pay is not a get out of free card for acting like a pranny

If he calls out boo boys for acting like pillocks and trying to unpick his work, I would build him a stadium. This idea that fans have that right or they want to boo players like some weird badge of honour as it proves they have always been right, its pathetic.

Im all for him calling it out

 

[alekaras]

I think that's fair comment. For me, he finishes top 8 (or even 10) playing good football in season 1 and I'm reasonably happy.

You're also right, a record doesn't guarantee anything. But I can't help look at two winners like Mourinho and Conte and they failed here. Ultimately, the job is about winning games and those lads are much better at it than Ange based on history. However, if he is successful, it wouldn't be the first time that logic was defied by football.

My concern is how we're gonna defend. Attacking football is great but it can also lead to embarrassment and there's a bigger chance of that happening here than anywhere else he's been. If he's gonna perish on any rock, that'll be it.

Look at me, looking for attacking football but also wanting a rock-solid defence. Who said football fans were impossible to please?

Mourinho and Conte failed because they were here for the money and didn't give a monkey's ass about the club. Especially when results started going south, they simply downed tools. That filters down to the players and the reaction is not "I will run through a wall for the manager," but quite the opposite. Add to that that they stifled the players natural instincts (especially Conte) and threw them under the bus so they could cover their ass and you get last year's outcome.

Contrast this with Ange who gives his players the platform to showcase their best attributes and shields them from blame when results go bad. As a player, who would you rather play for? Who would you "run through a wall for?"