Welcome Ange: To Dare is to Didgeridoo

[Gazza]

He reminds me of a fat badger … there I said it.

 

[thfcsteff]

He reminds me of a fat badger … there I said it.

Love this!

 

[thfcsteff]

The difference with VVD is he leads that defence
He commands the area too
He wins the crosses and deals with the issue which arise
He wasn’t worth the £75m but he has proven to be great value
Said it a lot recently… imagine an Eze as an option in that 10 role. A guy who creates and the balls sticks too
The pressure he would take off us would be immense.
I’d like Lankshear to be given the second striker spot unless we sell Richy and bring in another versatile player like Jonathan David
My worry is I can see the youth players who can fill these gaps but they are 18/24 months away from being ready
Buying expensive options could hinder them
Doesn’t mean that’s wrong but also not necessarily the right answer

Agreed generally. Liverpool overpaid at the time but underpaid in reality, same with Allison.
I love Will, think he needs two more years development and physical honing too, but he is a talent. I think we have to move Richy on and bring someone else in. Have not seen enough of David to say. Joao Pedro would be immense.
Agreed re: defenders, and the balance of purchase has to be right, but a left-sided CB is not in our stockpile so we need to find another one.

 

[thfcsteff]

The thing is, our players are good enough. They're not probably title contending good, but they're more than enough to be right up there. You also don't make Aston Villa look like total amateurs at home with average players just having a good day. Yes, everyone can beat everyone on their day in this league, but there's a difference between sneaking a goal and holding on against a Villa and going a goal behind and then handing them a footballing lesson. The thing is, if we are not on it, we lose. We are totally incapable of grinding out a result when we are not firing. Worse than that, we also sometimes fail to seal the deal in games we are dominating. Brighton match is a case in point. I am not sure Ange has the pragmatism in him to change his mentality to adjust for the realities of the PL.

He kind of reminds me a bit of Wenger's last days at Arsenal where the PL had moved on from when he first came and he was just trying to play this purist football every game no matter what the situation was and they were less and less consistent.

if we are saying Ange needs time. Every manager only deserves time if there are signs of progress, on and off the pitch. I haven't really seen any this season.

We look an attacking threat but we did from day dot with him. We look wide open and liable to concede most games too. How many clean sheets have we had under him? You can't go through a season conceding most games and expecting a high points tally and league finish, I'm sorry.

I think there are signs of progress.
Two thirds of our concessions have been from individual errors not the system we play IMO

 

[Jurgen the German]

Werner is clearly no more than 'an option' and not one which will help us. Brennan could do with some stiff competition. Maddison is easing himself out of the club it feels like. Deki needs some good competition. With Richy injured, Dom needs competition/we need a second striker (J Pedro at Brighton would be excellent IMO), as I think Wil Lankshear WILL be outstanding but needs the extra year or two. Our first 11 is strong, but I believe it is a squad game on match days, and given that we like to overpower opponents late, we need the same quality coming into games.

As for defence, for all the great things Romero brings as a footballer, he has to do better and lead. He is the World Cup winner, he is the Copa America winner, and he is the vice-skipper and well loved within the dressing room. His performances in that regard have not been good enough. Ange cannot do anything about that IMO.

I remember when Liverpool signed Van Dijk. I thought he was royally overrated (I remember when we beat Soton 4-1 away at Xmas 2016 and he was a lumberer)...I look back and laugh at my own ignorance, because he took on the challenge and has been (frankly) a generational CB. We got close with Toby and Jan, and the thing is, this club has always had great CBs despite the flair. Romero should be that for us.

Good post Steff. Agree with larhe parts of it. Agree Johnson needs competition, he doesn’t do enough for me. Don’t know what’s happened to Maddison, I was so happy when we signed him, but he’s been poor for the best part of 9 months. I don’t think we have anything close to a world class player in any part of the pitch. We don’t have an X factor player, the closest is Son because he can score out of nothing. We have a team full of hard workers but you need quality to win things. I don’t think we have it. We have enough for top 6 but no more than that IMO, not without a huge slice of luck. I almost don’t care where we finish in the league because we’re not winning it anytime soon. I just want to win a trophy. Can I see us beating the teams left in the league cup? Other than United I honestly can’t.

Toby and Jan weren’t far off Van Dijk, the only thing missing was pace which Van Dijk has is in spades.

 

[thfcsteff]

Good post Steff. Agree with larhe parts of it. Agree Johnson needs competition, he doesn’t do enough for me. Don’t know what’s happened to Maddison, I was so happy when we signed him, but he’s been poor for the best part of 9 months. I don’t think we have anything close to a world class player in any part of the pitch. We don’t have an X factor player, the closest is Son because he can score out of nothing. We have a team full of hard workers but you need quality to win things. I don’t think we have it. We have enough for top 6 but no more than that IMO, not without a huge slice of luck. I almost don’t care where we finish in the league because we’re not winning it anytime soon. I just want to win a trophy. Can I see us beating the teams left in the league cup? Other than United I honestly can’t.

Toby and Jan weren’t far off Van Dijk, the only thing missing was pace which Van Dijk has is in spades.

My mis-read of what VVD became kept me humble as an 'I know' supporter. I didn't know hahahaha...

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Good post Steff. Agree with larhe parts of it. Agree Johnson needs competition, he doesn’t do enough for me. Don’t know what’s happened to Maddison, I was so happy when we signed him, but he’s been poor for the best part of 9 months. I don’t think we have anything close to a world class player in any part of the pitch. We don’t have an X factor player, the closest is Son because he can score out of nothing. We have a team full of hard workers but you need quality to win things. I don’t think we have it. We have enough for top 6 but no more than that IMO, not without a huge slice of luck. I almost don’t care where we finish in the league because we’re not winning it anytime soon. I just want to win a trophy. Can I see us beating the teams left in the league cup? Other than United I honestly can’t.

Toby and Jan weren’t far off Van Dijk, the only thing missing was pace which Van Dijk has is in spades.

But they had a balance and played as a unit
They could both pass well too
Jan was better in the air and Toby was better with the longer passing
We currently have 2 CBS who are bang average to poor in the air
But one who is great as passing and one who is great at sweeping

 

[Jurgen the German]

But they had a balance and played as a unit
They could both pass well too
Jan was better in the air and Toby was better with the longer passing
We currently have 2 CBS who are bang average to poor in the air
But one who is great as passing and one who is great at sweeping

And a keeper who refuses to come off his line for corners.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

And a keeper who refuses to come off his line for corners.

Yep
Luckily corners aren’t hurting us now ..so far
But hugo also never left his line for corners too

 

[Robspur12]

Toby and Jan weren’t far off Van Dijk, the only thing missing was pace which Van Dijk has is in spades

It all about opinions of course but VVD is a different class to both Toby and Jan IMHO. I would go as far to say VVD is world class and as good as Toby and Jan were they were not WC and I loved them both. Not only is VVD a great defender but he is also a leader.

 

[braineclipse]

I think he was backed to an extent this summer.
I think 'the project' was backed wholly.
Daniel has always liked a punt on sparkling, talented teenagers, and it is clear Munn and Lange have a direction of traffic for us.
I like the direction, I like what we're doing on the pitch, and I like Ange.
For it all to work/be given a real chance to work, I think we're in total agreement that he needs time. I think he needs this season AND next whatever is happening (unless of course we look like being relegated!).
What we have to hope is that Munn and Lange really ARE running things; I remain sceptical that they have total control. I am going on assumption and previous history when I say I believe Daniel is still there and thereabouts. He signs the checks. And it cannot have escaped people that the signings we HAVE brought in are not the highest wage earners around (not a bad thing at all, you don't want THAT reputation). But when you need to make a signing which might require an extra bump in wages, you need to. And I just hope that when Ange is presented the shortlist of targets for a position, he is not always getting 2 and 3 or 3 and 4. I happily (and I mean happily!) concede that Solanke looks to have been a number one choice...

...anyway, just to sum up, Ange needs this season and next given the way we work as a club. I hope no-one above gets trigger-finger if things get twitchier.

I'm not entirely sure what you mean by total control. I'm guessing that they have some directions to work from, would be strange if they didn't and would be strange if that didn't pretty much alligned with what they want and signed up for when they joined us.

I too think Solanke probably was first choice. As I think about VdV, Maddison.

I think we're in agreement. If the money is there we should now (January, next summer) put quite a lot of focus on first team quality players, we can't sign a lot of them, but main focus there alongside perhaps 1-2 younger players if good deals can be found. I don't think that was a good option so far under Ange, far too much squad work that needed doing to just for 2 big players this summer for example.

I like our wake budget strategy, it makes sense for where we are and have been in the last couple of years. There will hopefully come a time when it's right for that to change. I think that will come naturally if these very talented young players develop, they'll want new and bigger deals - as was the case under Pochettino.

 

[braineclipse]

The margins are smaller with this style of football because it requires more expertise, more precision, more finesse to do it successfully. If you remember the term percentage football ie. The goofball it was called that because it doesn't live on a knife edge any semi competent footballer can hoof a ball forwards in the general direction of goal. Playing for knock-downs and physical contact is absolutely an easier brand of football to play which is why teams lower lower down the league often resort to it or even teams at the top when they are desperate for a goal, they'll throw a CB on to try and win headers to force the matter.

Pretty triangle intricate passing football is much more difficult to achieve and absolutely requires a higher standard of technical ability and finesse to perform it. It is absolutely the football style with the narrowest of margins and that's why I mentioned Barca who were fantastic but I watched many, many, many games were the pass was a little bit to strong, or the run slightly mistimed and that was a team that conquered all.

To play this way and succeed is going need buy in from the players, but fundamentally better players and better coaching than what we are seeing on the pitch.

We may disagree on the usage of terms, not sure. I'll expand on my opinion to see if we agree or where we disagree.

I agree that this style is harder, requires better players, more precision and finesse.

All football styles are "percentage football". If you hoof it there's a percentage chance you'll win the ball, get the second ball, create chaos, do something useful etc. Also a percentage chance that the opposition wins it and starts their attack.

When we try to play through the press equally there are percentage chances of various outcomes.

But no matter what style there are small margins. Doesn't matter if a chance comes from a hoof, intricate buildup through pressure, counter attack or set piece. Taking your chances or not will create small margins unless there's a massive difference in quality of the teams.

When we defend with a high press there's a bigger chance of a good break for us, there's a bigger chance of retrieving the ball quickly, but there's also a bigger chance of the opponents getting through our press into essentially a counter attacking opportunity.

When we sat back under Mourinho teams very rarely got those bigger chances from playing through us. But on the other hand they got more sustained pressure on our goal and a higher number of (initially) lower probability opportunities. But again, small margins, that one cross, that one chaotic moment in the box, that one deflected long shot.

No approach is better in isolation. No approach removes the issue of small margins that will be decisive over (imo) a much larger sample than many narratives around football take into account.

The right approach is one that fits the players and the overall strategy of the coach and club on how to develop the team. The right approach is also the one the coach knows best how to implement well.

 

[braineclipse]

The thing is, our players are good enough. They're not probably title contending good, but they're more than enough to be right up there. You also don't make Aston Villa look like total amateurs at home with average players just having a good day. Yes, everyone can beat everyone on their day in this league, but there's a difference between sneaking a goal and holding on against a Villa and going a goal behind and then handing them a footballing lesson. The thing is, if we are not on it, we lose. We are totally incapable of grinding out a result when we are not firing. Worse than that, we also sometimes fail to seal the deal in games we are dominating. Brighton match is a case in point. I am not sure Ange has the pragmatism in him to change his mentality to adjust for the realities of the PL.

He kind of reminds me a bit of Wenger's last days at Arsenal where the PL had moved on from when he first came and he was just trying to play this purist football every game no matter what the situation was and they were less and less consistent.

if we are saying Ange needs time. Every manager only deserves time if there are signs of progress, on and off the pitch. I haven't really seen any this season.

We look an attacking threat but we did from day dot with him. We look wide open and liable to concede most games too. How many clean sheets have we had under him? You can't go through a season conceding most games and expecting a high points tally and league finish, I'm sorry.

Remember games under Conte and Mourinho (two of the biggest "pragmatists" in football) when we weren't "on it"? They usually didn't end well. Though sometimes luck, Kane or Son bailed us out and we got the win/result anyway. As we easily could have done against Ipswich, as we did against Coventry.

For me we have to be "on it" or closer to it more of the time. And that will be true no matter who the coach and style is.

This fairly young team dealing with European football and a bit of exhaustion (injuries, squad limitations) as well as a bit of a shortage on the leadership side on the pitch have to improve their mentality. With or without Ange. Personally I think Ange seems like the right guy to help them with that. But it will take time if it happens. There will be set backs, I'm doubtful the Ipswich game was the last of it's kind.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

We may disagree on the usage of terms, not sure. I'll expand on my opinion to see if we agree or where we disagree.

I agree that this style is harder, requires better players, more precision and finesse.

All football styles are "percentage football". If you hoof it there's a percentage chance you'll win the ball, get the second ball, create chaos, do something useful etc. Also a percentage chance that the opposition wins it and starts their attack.

When we try to play through the press equally there are percentage chances of various outcomes.

But no matter what style there are small margins. Doesn't matter if a chance comes from a hoof, intricate buildup through pressure, counter attack or set piece. Taking your chances or not will create small margins unless there's a massive difference in quality of the teams.

When we defend with a high press there's a bigger chance of a good break for us, there's a bigger chance of retrieving the ball quickly, but there's also a bigger chance of the opponents getting through our press into essentially a counter attacking opportunity.

When we sat back under Mourinho teams very rarely got those bigger chances from playing through us. But on the other hand they got more sustained pressure on our goal and a higher number of (initially) lower probability opportunities. But again, small margins, that one cross, that one chaotic moment in the box, that one deflected long shot.

No approach is better in isolation. No approach removes the issue of small margins that will be decisive over (imo) a much larger sample than many narratives around football take into account.

The right approach is one that fits the players and the overall strategy of the coach and club on how to develop the team. The right approach is also the one the coach knows best how to implement well.

No approach works if you fail in it’s execution
But some are harder to do than others and produce less variables
Playing out from the back is harder than a hoof up field
But time and time what hurts us is the simple things
Far post goals have costs us most of goals this season , not counters or corners
They are, in theory, easier to defend as they arent fast and they aren’t set plays
But if no one takes charge
No one has an6 accountability for defending the cross
You fail

 

[braineclipse]

No approach works if you fail in it’s execution
But some are harder to do than others and produce less variables
Playing out from the back is harder than a hoof up field
But time and time what hurts us is the simple things
Far post goals have costs us most of goals this season , not counters or corners
They are, in theory, easier to defend as they arent fast and they aren’t set plays
But if no one takes charge
No one has an6 accountability for defending the cross
You fail

It is harder to do, if you're bad at it the percentages definitely won't work in your favour. If you're sufficiently good at it the percentages work out in your favour.

Hoof ball is easier, the risk of a catastrophic error immediately leading to a goal is smaller. But then you also end up losing the ball fairly quickly fairly often having created nothing in the process. You can then of course press with a lot if intensity, but will be difficult to keep up if you keep losing the ball quickly so you'll be forced to defend deeper.

Defending deeper is also "easier", but you end up doing it more of the time. And as we saw particularly under Mourinho defending deep consistently well enough to keep winning low scoring games is really difficult. It is to me "equally hard" as playing through a press. And that's why most of the best teams and best managers don't use a hoof it and defend deep strategy. It's really really difficult to be good enough at that to be successful.

And that's why I disagree about coaches like Mourinho or more defensive coaches being described as more "pragmatic". What the pragmatic solution is depends on the context.

 

[Baleforce]

It is harder to do, if you're bad at it the percentages definitely won't work in your favour. If you're sufficiently good at it the percentages work out in your favour.

Hoof ball is easier, the risk of a catastrophic error immediately leading to a goal is smaller. But then you also end up losing the ball fairly quickly fairly often having created nothing in the process. You can then of course press with a lot if intensity, but will be difficult to keep up if you keep losing the ball quickly so you'll be forced to defend deeper.

Defending deeper is also "easier", but you end up doing it more of the time. And as we saw particularly under Mourinho defending deep consistently well enough to keep winning low scoring games is really difficult. It is to me "equally hard" as playing through a press. And that's why most of the best teams and best managers don't use a hoof it and defend deep strategy. It's really really difficult to be good enough at that to be successful.

And that's why I disagree about coaches like Mourinho or more defensive coaches being described as more "pragmatic". What the pragmatic solution is depends on the context.

Yes it does, which is why you need to be adaptable, Jose’s teams would go from pass and move to sit deep and hoof depending on opposition and player availability.

That’s the pragmatism, having multiple ways of approaching the problem.

 

[Mikey10]

I think there are signs of progress.
Two thirds of our concessions have been from individual errors not the system we play IMO

Hard to separate the two in my opinion. For example, I’m not surprised the CBs are making individual errors given the fact that they are asked to play in a system which physically and mentally stretches them to the limit for the full 90+ minutes of every game.

And a keeper who refuses to come off his line for corners.

It’s more the mad yelling (mostly at the younger and inexperienced players, I’ve noticed - I’ve yet to see him give Romero a b ollocking) and the wild arm gesticulations that get me. He looks like a particularly angry Italian traffic cop.

Great shot stopper, questionable in most other areas of the game for me.

 

[Daisuk]

I heard a podcast episode last night about how a football team from Norway, Tromsø (we played them in the euro league back in 2013), sacrificed a goat in the middle of their pitch at night to somehow get rid of a curse a shaman had put on them. They had lost and lost and lost, then they sacrificed the goat (they were told by another shaman-type that was the only way to get rid of the curse), and they started winning again and stayed up against all odds! Now, I'm in the odd position of being both superstitious and a vegetarian - so I can't condone killing a goat up in the cheese lounge, but surely it is worth a try? What kind of spiritual hot shot has got anything against us? Did we not pay Uri Geller that one time he did a job for us? The son in law of the king of Norway, Harald (big Spurs fan), is a self proclaimed shaman. Worth a punt? I am not back on the shrooms, by the way, just wanting us to turn every stone.

If only it was that easy. We all know it's the accumulation of terrible OMTs that is doing us in.

 

[Daisuk]

He reminds me of a fat badger … there I said it.

Hahaha, so true! I can never unsee that now.

 

[Finney Is Back]

Yes it does, which is why you need to be adaptable, Jose’s teams would go from pass and move to sit deep and hoof depending on opposition and player availability.

That’s the pragmatism, having multiple ways of approaching the problem.

That's right - pass and move right at the start of his tenure when the team were still playing as though coached by Pochettino, that gradually became more and more defensive until we ended up in his negative, boring, sit deep in a low block and play counter attack only gameplan.