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VAR: Sponsored by Chelsea
- Thread starter Gutter Boy
- Start date
Baleforce
Les Bennett
Ruined the game, the jumpers narrative was the very essence of football, everyone I wallowed in the marsh with on Saturday afternoons stopped going after that.
I am saying that there is no reason to have a trial of a developing process at the biggest tournament - if it is coming this is how I will judge.
I like football, I think its special because of its simplicity and universally (?) I do not think it needs drastically changing the real big errors are few and far between and the solution (as with VAR) is better training of refs and for me a reset that contact does not equal a foul. Even if we get to the situation you describe I doubt I would be happy because the benefits do not outweigh the costs.
That being said I am not looking for problems, I believe my critisms are valid and shared. On almost every call going I could argue both sides of a decision and be right -Ronaldo sending off for instance. I think we are trying to make a game of Grey fit in with a process of black and white.
Glenda's Legs
Paul Walsh
Offsides are one of four or five incidents that do not go to a screen referral, rather the VAR "advises" the match referee that play was onside/offside - it is still up to the referee on the pitch to make the final call, but in practice how likely is he to go against the VAR advice for an onside/offside call?
nayimfromthehalfwayline
Andy Thompson
Thats what I thought
So at least a year. With it being implemented and proven elsewhere fist.
What costs?
Genuine question. People bemoan stoppages, but stoppages happen regardless. People bemoan decisions they disagree with - that happens now. It should happen less.
What are the costs exactly? Ive seen nothing that makes me stop and think about it, and its not because I dont want to.
Every complaint has just seemed quite trivial to me.
I can appreciate you dont want it used at the WC, cant say it bothers me but thats what opinions are about. You do, however, also want it brought in fully tested and efficient. For me the WC, an isolated tournament, is about as good a thing as any to test with. A league season would take longer, and impact more people/clubs/businesses were it done that way, even in League 2. So, fair enough you dont like it, but Im really not sure what else they were supposed to do.
VAR is not about black and white. Its about getting more correct than incorrect.
I agree completely refereeing needs a great deal of improvement, it simply isnt good enough.
My take though? VAR recognises that even the best ref ever cannot manage to get everything right without help.
Just the basic physics of it. Footballers now are incredible athletes, the pace with which the ball/game/players move is incredible. IMHO it is impossible to keep up with everything, see what you need to see, track 4 different things at once...
GB offered the idea of having a ref in each half - people are looking for a variety of solutions, clearly a single ref just isnt adequate regardless of training, IMHO.
Something happens, game stops, players remonstrate - this happens regardless. I am very happy with the idea that at this point any incident is properly reviewed and decision is made that *should* be correct. It wont always, but I believe it will be more right than wrong, and compared to now a significant improvement.
mudshark
Chris Armstrong
It seems clear to me that what needs to be let go of immediately is this conceit that only the ref on the pitch can make an actual decision. One, it introduces a pointless extra delay while he goes and views the thing himself, and two, it invites players to surround him drawing rectangles in the air every five minutes.
Take the responsibility away from the man in the middle and you cure both of those issues in one fell swoop. You probably increase the likelihood of better decisions in subjective cases as well, because presumably you'll get VAR refs with more experience of using the technology making the calls. That ought to reduce the slo-mo amplification effect as well.
The venerable Signor Collina made the firm point that refs should not tolerate being pursued or surrounded by a rectangle-drawing mob, and even hinted that it could be a disciplinary issue for them if they do, but in my view, the only way to stop that is to render it entirely and demonstrably pointless.
Take the responsibility away from the man in the middle and you cure both of those issues in one fell swoop. You probably increase the likelihood of better decisions in subjective cases as well, because presumably you'll get VAR refs with more experience of using the technology making the calls. That ought to reduce the slo-mo amplification effect as well.
The venerable Signor Collina made the firm point that refs should not tolerate being pursued or surrounded by a rectangle-drawing mob, and even hinted that it could be a disciplinary issue for them if they do, but in my view, the only way to stop that is to render it entirely and demonstrably pointless.
nayimfromthehalfwayline
Andy Thompson
I agree with your point in general, but also his specifically.
Referees are weak, and invite this sort of thing. Just as, associations are weak and never back up the refs.
How many times have we seen a new season start, declarations of "We are going to stamp out diving (or whatever)" and refs are told to take a hard line, only for it to fall away and be forgotten once people complain about decisions?
If they just stuck to the rules, really enforced them, would players act the way they do now?
So, if they actually stuck to the rules and enforced them going forward, would it change?
I would hope so. Ultimately if yellows and reds are flying around, without sign of the authorities backing down, the only thing to do for players is to either carry on and get suspended/sent off/fined or stop acting the clam!
Costs have been outlined in this thread before and after the WC - you do not agree with them but they are there.
I think it is disingenuous to argue that a bad point in the game that is happening now (excess stoppages) is an excuse to allow them with VAR, the solution is to eliminate them not justify introducing more.
I think it is disingenuous to argue that a bad point in the game that is happening now (excess stoppages) is an excuse to allow them with VAR, the solution is to eliminate them not justify introducing more.
StephenH
David Ginola
Peoples attitudes towards VAR are a basic manifestation of their dislike of change.
Change can be a bitch as it is like a wobbly supermarket trolley, difficult to predict its precise path.
Some of us cope easier with the erratic journey than others.
I find it very exciting, pastures new and all that.
Change can be a bitch as it is like a wobbly supermarket trolley, difficult to predict its precise path.
Some of us cope easier with the erratic journey than others.
I find it very exciting, pastures new and all that.
Gazza Dazzla
Chris Perry
Any particular post that’s made you think that way?
Gutter Boy
Tim Sherwood
Goal line technology was a brilliant change. So was the passback rule. So was 3 points for a win.
But humanity also does really stupid thing - thalidomide, CFCs, fracking, single use plastic, and now VAR.
What is sad is accepting reduction, managed decline, that it has to go that way because that is what the interests of big business will drive (and let's remember, the real driver of VAR is to enable in-game advert breaks). Sometimes it is worth fighting for what is pure and noble in the world. Humanity back in the centre of the ring.
StephenH
David Ginola
thalidomide. Umm
Gutter Boy
Tim Sherwood
In terms of how far a really bad idea actually got before society snapped to its senses and went 'what the fudge'
Spur of the moment
Frederic Kanoute
Yes there may be some who dislike any form of change but to suggest that all negative comments are based on that stance is just wrong.
What at least some of us - and going by the comments on this thread probably the majority - want to see is VAR being introduced much more judiciously. Most are not against VAR per se but the crass way it has been imposed upon the greatest competition in the world before being thoroughly trialled and tested and honed at lower levels.
Seedy Ron
Jimmy Neighbour
I think we may have reached peak GB.
nayimfromthehalfwayline
Andy Thompson
You see this is where you fail me, and (without wanting to sound the clam, which inevitably I might) I respect you as a poster who is much better than that.
What costs? Really? Most, IMHO, seem to be directly linked to the current implementation being what it is = in development, and treating it as if its the finished article. Many are based on biased and unrealistic expectation, predetermined by ones already decided upon stance, others are based around isolated incidents, ignoring the bigger picture and finally some seem to be based against some unrealistic view of the game as it stands (free flowing and other nonsense).
You are a really articulate poster, one Ive a lot of time for - around things I agree with and disagree with (honestly, really, not trying to be a clam) and yet on this you are dodging points left and right and taking rather selective views to argue with.
Its surprising. If it really boils down to, simply "I just dont like it" then say so, Id respect that.
Regards the bad point in the game, Im not trying to be disingenuous. Im looking at it - we have excessive stoppages already - and thinking "is that going to change anytime soon?". The answer is no. Then Im thinking "If we have stoppages, Id rather they were of value, IE: taking time to get a decision correct". If the game genuinely was free-flowing, I would be more reluctant to introduce stoppages. Fact is, they are there anyway, we might as well make them worth something.
Please tell me you are just trolling. This post is fishing for bites, surely?
parklane1
Tony Galvin
tickle my balls with a feather, its what is called a "clusterfudge" and it has been from the very begining.
I didn't say I didn't like it and accept it, I am pretty sure we (me and you) had a lot of back and forth on this pre WC and it was the same arguments, there are things I value and you do not and vise versa that are going into our own views. It feels a little like a BREXIT discussion where there is a circular discussion with both sides convinced they were right and if I am honest with you I just couldn't be bothered to type them all out.
It really does boil down to the fact I like football and I don't think there needs to be any drastic changes, the real big balls ups are few and far between and imho the way to improve refereeing is to accept there is a human element and some mistakes do happen along with the reset the fact that contact does not equal a foul. I don't think the speed of the game or anything like that is making the ref make more mistakes, I think the number of cameras, slow motion, and gobbrick commentators are highlighting errors that are always there. This and the increased diving and simulation is what is making people want VAR, I do not think VAR will reduce diving in a world where contact equals a foul as people will be more inclined to go down knowing that slow motion will see contact.
I think that the introduction of anything so game changing as VAR the onus is on those that are changing it to prove its a net benefit and I am a little bemused that they have introduced it on the big stage prior to it working correctly. Because it gets a few decisions right does not make it a net benefit, you may not agree but where VAR and its performance is the major discussion point on most shows there is a cost there, I will go through these later if you wish but it has been discussed and I think both sides made their points and these have not changed.
Dude - I am sorry if I came across dismissive not the intent but I was keen on not going over old ground.
Gutter Boy
Tim Sherwood
I was just wondering what would happen if a government of private company was as incompetent in front of such a huge global audience as VAR was last night, what would happen? Northern Rail timetable changes and Starbucks racism in Philadelphia are perhaps two recent comparisons. Though even those two showed some humility in quickly admitting their failings.
One thing I find quite difficult is trying to defend my sport to the casuals at work who have dipped in and are completely bewildered by it. It's quite embarrassing that it's ended up in this sorry state.
One thing I find quite difficult is trying to defend my sport to the casuals at work who have dipped in and are completely bewildered by it. It's quite embarrassing that it's ended up in this sorry state.