VAR: Sponsored by Chelsea

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

The replay is the whole bloody point. Being able to make a better, more certain decision.

 

[Gutter Boy]

Despite all the melodrama I wager nearly all those claiming theyll walk away will not. Im also expecting its really just a resistance to change, once its in and working itll be "normal" soon enough.

See Formula 1 for how poor rule changes can alienate and drive away most of its fanbase

VAR is up there with double points for the last race of the season, grooved tyres and refuelling.

 

[r-u-s-x]

Ive been saying since page 1, the video ref needs to be able to make decisions.

I would be stunned if VAR as it is today, is what goes into practice in a couple of seasons time, and fully hope for that to be one of the things that changes between now and then.

Its in its infancy, a little perspective needs to be applied.




I think (hope!) that with an outside force speaking in absolutes, arguing will be pointless.

The ref is at that point not the be all/end all, and is not judging things solely in real time as it happens. His decisions are more "certain" and therefore he is not to be swayed.

I would see that as, hopefully, a pretty big factor in reducing that behaviour.

Problem is, its so deeply ingrained at the moment its going to take time to change it.

I know you are saying that the video ref needs to be able to make decisions but Fifa are not interested in our opinion, all indications are this is not the way they are going? All official notifications I have seen is the goal is to leave the decision to the person on the pitch (you seen otherwise?) - it seems a bit pointless arguing against something that isn't being used and all likelihood will not be coming in.

VAR as is and how they are intending to keep it has incentive to argue more with the ref - its in its infancy so again why put something they have no idea on if it works into a major tournament, lets put the one that works in a couple of seasons time.

 

[Gutter Boy]

The replay is the whole bloody point. Being able to make a better, more certain decision.

You can't though, as there's no right answers. 15 minutes of analysis of decisions over half time still tends to leave split decisions on almost everything.

They are subjective judgements and for the sake of the sporting spectacle need to be made immediately

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

See Formula 1 for how poor rule changes can alienate and drive away most of its fanbase

VAR is up there with double points for the last race of the season, grooved tyres and refuelling.

Not even remotely comparable sports, or rule changes.

This isnt meddling, this is "how can we improve our refereeing, which is fundamentally inadequate?"

I know you are saying that the video ref needs to be able to make decisions but Fifa are not interested in our opinion, all indications are this is not the way they are going? All official notifications I have seen is the goal is to leave the decision to the person on the pitch (you seen otherwise?) - it seems a bit pointless arguing against something that isn't being used and all likelihood will not be coming in.

VAR as is and how they are intending to keep it has incentive to argue more with the ref - its in its infancy so again why put something they have no idea on if it works into a major tournament, lets put the one that works in a couple of seasons time.

The WC already has more input from the VAR ref than we did domestically, its the logical outcome from what we have seen so far.

I dont know it WILL happen, but all sense says it should - Im not sure Id see the fact it hasnt happened yet as an absolute that it wont.

But, lets say it is. The ref on the pitch is the decision maker, and when he makes a decision he is more certain than ever - why would there be MORE arguing?

I think there should be rule changes around respect as it is introduced, to facilitate its implementation. I think there should be those changes anyway, frankly, the way players behave is shameful.

VAR is being piloted in the World Cup, there is no sign of it hitting the premier league in the next season or so - so I would suggest its fair to say when it does come in it will be much more functional.

This is all testing and development.

And even then, despite its flaws, there is an argument to support it now.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

You can't though, as there's no right answers. 15 minutes of analysis of decisions over half time still tends to leave split decisions on almost everything.

They are subjective judgements and for the sake of the sporting spectacle need to be made immediately

NOBODY - except those firmly in the anti camp - expects 100% correct decisions at all time.

Nobody. Its a ridiculous point of view to take.

However, which ref is going to make MORE decisions correct?

The one who sees something from 30 yards away and needs to make a call, or the one who saw something from 30 yards away, then had the benefit of seeing it again close up a few times?

That is the point. Its the only point since the beginning. Giving referees the tools to get more right than wrong. Get the big calls that decide games.

 

[Baleforce]

Pay for the cameras in one ground in the second division, its a rich game - not having cameras is not a valid excuse.

Why would you test something with all the worlds eyes on it, I don't understand how this level of scrutiny helps develop a system that works? It will turn people against the concept though, lose trust that will take a long while to recover.

" think with goal line tech it was something that was an absolute. Ball crossed the line, yes or no. An almost mechanical thing." yep I agree, its why I think Goal line technology was a good step.

its been tested in first class games for 2 years, sooner or later you have to push something on, technology is never finished, at some point you have to ship to justify ongoing development

 

[Gazza Dazzla]

You can't though, as there's no right answers. 15 minutes of analysis of decisions over half time still tends to leave split decisions on almost everything.

They are subjective judgements and for the sake of the sporting spectacle need to be made immediately

This is my issue with it, no matter what decision is made using the video on a lot of these incidents it’s still subjective, someone will feel aggrieved. That will not change unless they change the times VAR is allowed to be used.

VAR for offsides, ball in and out of play, definitive things like that is an absolute no brainer though, just like goal line tech. The Spain goal for example, it was the perfect use for VAR. The rest of it, well I’m far from convinced, you’re not actually fixing anything with it a lot of the time.

 

[r-u-s-x]

But, lets say it is. The ref on the pitch is the decision maker, and when he makes a decision he is more certain than ever - why would there be MORE arguing?

I think there should be rule changes around respect as it is introduced, to facilitate its implementation. I think there should be those changes anyway, frankly, the way players behave is shameful.

VAR is being piloted in the World Cup, there is no sign of it hitting the premier league in the next season or so - so I would suggest its fair to say when it does come in it will be much more functional.

This is all testing and development.

And even then, despite its flaws, there is an argument to support it now.

currently the refs decision is final - with VAR the refs decision is not final you can influence them to look at VAR, this is happening in practice there is more arguing we don't need to suppose.

I also think its mental to test at the WC which I have discussed. We see the implementation of this in the WC completely differently, due to its performance there is no argument to support it now.

 

[r-u-s-x]

its been being tested in first class games for 2 years, sooner or later you have to push something on, technology is never finished, at some point you have to ship to justify ongoing development

It was with goal line technology as it worked - this appears to have been we cant get it to work but we will carry on regardless.

 

[milo]

That happened anyway. The only thing new is the window gestures.

I'm disappointed to have missed the chance to use "square signs instead of prayer signs".

 

[r-u-s-x]

This is my issue with it, no matter what decision is made using the video on a lot of these incidents it’s still subjective, someone will feel aggrieved. That will not change unless they change the times VAR is allowed to be used.

VAR for offsides, ball in and out of play, definitive things like that is an absolute no brainer though, just like goal line tech. The Spain goal for example, it was the perfect use for VAR. The rest of it, well I’m far from convinced, you’re not actually fixing anything with it a lot of the time.

Other than the risk of interfering with play I agree it has worked for offsides, infact using the technology they have surely you can remove the refs completely from the process (you don't need them to look at two lines and see what is in front of the other) - and you can see a time when it will also be a buzzer on the refs wrist.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

currently the refs decision is final - with VAR the refs decision is not final you can influence them to look at VAR, this is happening in practice there is more arguing we don't need to suppose.

I also think its mental to test at the WC which I have discussed. We see the implementation of this in the WC completely differently, due to its performance there is no argument to support it now.

Currently the players have no respect for Refs and this is a problem with or without VAR.

VAR is a novelty, of course people are pushing it.

Do you really think when it is established nothing will change? People will not get used to or accept it?

This is the thing, its neither "finished" nor "normal". Why do people keep arguing about it as if it is?

Just as, we arent going to see it in the Premiership any time soon - yet you expect it to be exactly the same when we do see it?

It was with goal line technology as it worked - this appears to have been we cant get it to work but we will carry on regardless.

I think , because it is more subjective, less definite, it needs to be used in anger to iron out the kinks.

A tournament offers a perfect testing ground, doesnt it?

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

Other than the risk of interfering with play I agree it has worked for offsides, infact using the technology they have surely you can remove the refs completely from the process (you don't need them to look at two lines and see what is in front of the other) - and you can see a time when it will also be a buzzer on the refs wrist.

With offsides, has the ref or the VAR ref made the call?

I genuinely dont know - Kanes hattrick goal is the only one I can recall and Im pretty sure it was the VAR ref confirming.

That being the case, it follows that more decisions can go that way.

 

[r-u-s-x]

With offsides, has the ref or the VAR ref made the call?

I genuinely dont know - Kanes hattrick goal is the only one I can recall and Im pretty sure it was the VAR ref confirming.

That being the case, it follows that more decisions can go that way.

As a point VAR= Ref they are not separate it is the final letter, as it stands however I think the ref looks at it if they deem it to be offside (not 100% sure) / goes against the original decision - did you watch the Spain game?

 

[r-u-s-x]

Do you really think when it is established nothing will change? People will not get used to or accept it?

This is the thing, its neither "finished" nor "normal". Why do people keep arguing about it as if it is?

Just as, we arent going to see it in the Premiership any time soon - yet you expect it to be exactly the same when we do see it?

I expect it to be more complete before they roll it out at the major tournament, if they decide to go ahead I will judge it on what it is, not what it may be or how I want it to be.

 

[Gazza Dazzla]

As a point VAR= Ref they are not separate it is the final letter, as it stands however I think the ref looks at it if they deem it to be offside (not 400% sure) / goes against the original decision - did you watch the Spain game?

Lino/ref gave offside, VAR immediately looked at it, about 15/20 seconds later the goal was given.
It was excellantly used IMO.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

As a point VAR= Ref they are not separate it is the final letter, as it stands however I think the ref looks at it if they deem it to be offside (not 400% sure) / goes against the original decision - did you watch the Spain game?

I did not, havent seen the incident at all. Just thinking back to what I have seen and Kanes goal was the only one I remembered being checked. It was millimetres onside, they verified, it stood. Pretty sure it was the VAR ref that made the shout.

I expect it to be more complete before they roll it out at the major tournament, if they decide to go ahead I will judge it on what it is, not what it may be or how I want it to be.

"What it is" right now, is a developing process. Seems foolish to judge it as absolute.

You failed to answer my question before:

if the VAR ref ends up able to make calls*, if the comms between the refs is broadcast - so decisions are made quickly and clearly - will you have an issue with it?

*With the VAR ref able to spot off the ball stuff, punish gamesmanship and cheating, validate on field queries, call penalties etc.

I know you are keen to avoid it, given the "what if" factor, but what I am asking is simply a logical conclusion from what we have seen. Will it happen? I dont know. I do know that VAR as it stands is almost certain to not be what goes live though. So itll either be what I describe or something between that and what we have.

So what do you think? Streamlined decision making, more eyes watching the game - will you still be so anti?

 

[r-u-s-x]

Lino/ref gave offside, VAR immediately looked at it, about 15/20 seconds later the goal was given.
It was excellantly used IMO.

did the ref look at the screen or was it all done on the ear piece?

 

[Gazza Dazzla]

did the ref look at the screen or was it all done on the ear piece?

All ear piece