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Transfer thread

Bishop said:
So we should only sign players who have already played in the PL? So no Eriksen, either VDV, Romero, Modric etc or De Bruyne, Aguero, Hazard etc?

Not only is this a very short sighted view it's also massively limiting. We aren't going to be signing desirable players from the likes City, United, Arsenal and Chelsea and it's even debatable that we could sign a desirable player from the likes of Villa or Saudi Sportswashing Machine. So essentially what you're suggesting is we only sign players from the teams who usually finish in the bottom 12 of the PL! That's not only a small pool it's also with lots of substandard players.

I get it, you're a little afraid or weary of players who haven't played in the PL but what you suggest would put us even further behind as our rivals will sign quality players from abroad who have never played in the PL.
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No my point is not mutually exclusive nor is it limiting. It’s quite simple, I would always take a player that has done it in the premier league vs one that is untried or tested. Not withstanding your points of recruitment pool size etc I just trust a player that has delivered in the league.
 
Gazza said:
No my point is not mutually exclusive nor is it limiting. It’s quite simple, I would always take a player that has done it in the premier league vs one that is untried or tested. Not withstanding your points of recruitment pool size etc I just trust a player that has delivered in the league.
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Yes, it's an interesting topic and both you and @Bishop are right. You have to consider that finding players abroad will usually be cheaper vs the fact that PL proven players are far more expensive (both due to the fact they are PL proven and the fact PL clubs have more money and don't need to sell for financial reasons). But there are many quality players coming from foreign leagues who have failed to deliver in the PL, the pace and demands of this league is like no other so there are no guarantees. In the past we have had to go down the 'unproven in the PL' cheaper route, and we have had many flops because of it.

However, now our recruitment is much better so I'm much more confident in players we are bring in from other countries. Additionally we have more money to purchase PL proven players now (Solanke, Maddison etc) so we can go down that route at times too. However, there are of course no guarantees either way....
 
Gazza said:
No my point is not mutually exclusive nor is it limiting. It’s quite simple, I would always take a player that has done it in the premier league vs one that is untried or tested. Not withstanding your points of recruitment pool size etc I just trust a player that has delivered in the league.
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I understand your point but in the last 20 years how many of our say 20 best players were bought from the prem?
 
Lilbaz said:
I understand your point but in the last 20 years how many of our say 20 best players were bought from the prem?
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To which the obvious riposte would be - how successful have we been in the last 20 years?

Is there a causation between us not buying enough proven talent and our relative lack of success?
 
Lost Mango said:
To which the obvious riposte would be - how successful have we been in the last 20 years?

Is there a causation between us not buying enough proven talent and our relative lack of success?
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Look at any of the top teams' squads - how many of their players were PL-based when they signed? I'd imagine our rate of PL Vs non-PL is very similar.

It's basic maths that there are way, way more players available from other countries. And frankly we can't compete for the best players from the PL. Do you think any of Grealish, Stones, VVD, Caicedo, Rice, etc would have come to us?

If anything we are better off signing from abroad, I don't remember the last time we made a top signing from the PL. All of Richarlison, Solanke, Maddison, Bissouma, Hojbjerg, etc have/had pretty big question marks over their ability at the top level.

On the other hand there is an argument that if we increased our wage bill perhaps we could compete for better PL players. But overall I think the "PL experience" argument is overplayed.
 
Lilbaz said:
I understand your point but in the last 20 years how many of our say 20 best players were bought from the prem?
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That’s fine and all. It’s perhaps down to finances, pulling power, wages and ultimately recruitment. I also understand your point however I would suggest the most successful teams in the prem were able to poach top players from their rivals in the premier and peppered along with buying top players abroad … none of which we do or are capable of.

My point is just simple really. I’d rather proven prem quality vs a player from abroad.
 
Our best recent players and where they have come from (orange = youth player from England, green = ready made from English team, bold = making a step down in level):

Kane - 20yr old youth product
Son - 23yr old from lower level European team
Bale - 18yr from lower level English team
Eriksen - 21yr old from lower level European team
King - 19yr old youth product
Vertonghen - 25yr old from lower level European team
Lloris - 26yr old from lower level European team
Dembele - 25yr from lower level English team
Modric - 22yr old from lower level European team
Dele - 18yr from lower level English team
Alderweireld - 26yr from lower level English team
van der Vaart - 27yr old from higher level European team
Berbatov - 25yr old from lower level European team
Walker - 19yr from lower level English team
Lennon - 19yr from same level English team
Rose- 17yr from same level English team
Dier - 20yr old from lower level European team

edit:
van de Ven - 22yr old from lower level European team
Bentancur - 24yr old from higher level European team
Kulusevski - 21yr old from higher level European team
Romero - 23yr old from lower level European team
Gray - 18yr from lower level English team
Bergvall - 18yr old from lower level European team

About equal success from English youth and ready made from Europe, but a lot more than ready made from England. And virtually all making a step up, rather than a step down in level.
 
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Pandy said:
Look at any of the top teams' squads - how many of their players were PL-based when they signed? I'd imagine our rate of PL Vs non-PL is very similar.

It's basic maths that there are way, way more players available from other countries. And frankly we can't compete for the best players from the PL. Do you think any of Grealish, Stones, VVD, Caicedo, Rice, etc would have come to us?

If anything we are better off signing from abroad, I don't remember the last time we made a top signing from the PL. All of Richarlison, Solanke, Maddison, Bissouma, Hojbjerg, etc have/had pretty big question marks over their ability at the top level.

On the other hand there is an argument that if we increased our wage bill perhaps we could compete for better PL players. But overall I think the "PL experience" argument is overplayed.
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Mate, my comment was very tongue in cheek. I think EPL experience is overplayed I was just stirring it a bit.

Although wasn't it all Levy's fault Grealish didn't come to us (don't think we have rehashed that argument for a while .....)
 
Lost Mango said:
Mate, my comment was very tongue in cheek. I think EPL experience is overplayed I was just stirring it a bit.

Although wasn't it all Levy's fault Grealish didn't come to us (don't think we have rehashed that argument for a while .....)
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Yea fair I was commenting on the discussion generally rather than having a pop at you!
 
Lemonade Money said:
Our best recent players and where they have come from (orange = youth player from England, green = ready made from English team, bold = making a step down in level):

Kane - 20yr old youth product
Son - 23yr old from lower level European team
Bale - 18yr from lower level English team
Eriksen - 21yr old from lower level European team
King - 19yr old youth product
Vertonghen - 25yr old from lower level European team
Lloris - 26yr old from lower level European team
Dembele - 25yr from lower level English team
Modric - 22yr old from lower level European team
Dele - 18yr from lower level English team
Alderweireld - 26yr from lower level English team
van der Vaart - 27yr old from higher level European team
Berbatov - 25yr old from lower level European team
Walker - 19yr from lower level English team
Lennon - 19yr from same level English team
Rose- 17yr from same level English team
Dier - 20yr old from lower level European team

About equal success from English youth and ready made from Europe, but a lot more than ready made from England. And virtually all making a step up, rather than a step down in level.
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we finished 17th - what does that mean? only players from the championship ?
 
Gazza said:
No my point is not mutually exclusive nor is it limiting. It’s quite simple, I would always take a player that has done it in the premier league vs one that is untried or tested. Not withstanding your points of recruitment pool size etc I just trust a player that has delivered in the league.
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I don't really agree with this argument because it suggests you would rather have Bissouma over Modric or Johnson over Son. Neither were PL proven until we bought them.

I get what you're saying if you're arguing for signing say Rooney or Ageruo etc, but we are never going to be signing the likes of these players so theres no real sense in trying to exclusively or preferentially going for PL proven players because it's unlikely we can get the very best of them.
 
Lemonade Money said:
Our best recent players and where they have come from (orange = youth player from England, green = ready made from English team, bold = making a step down in level):

Kane - 20yr old youth product
Son - 23yr old from lower level European team
Bale - 18yr from lower level English team
Eriksen - 21yr old from lower level European team
King - 19yr old youth product
Vertonghen - 25yr old from lower level European team
Lloris - 26yr old from lower level European team
Dembele - 25yr from lower level English team
Modric - 22yr old from lower level European team
Dele - 18yr from lower level English team
Alderweireld - 26yr from lower level English team
van der Vaart - 27yr old from higher level European team
Berbatov - 25yr old from lower level European team
Walker - 19yr from lower level English team
Lennon - 19yr from same level English team
Rose- 17yr from same level English team
Dier - 20yr old from lower level European team

edit:
van de Ven - 22yr old from lower level European team
Bentancur - 24yr old from higher level European team
Kulusevski - 21yr old from higher level European team
Romero - 23yr old from lower level European team
Gray - 18yr from lower level English team
Bergvall - 18yr old from lower level European team

About equal success from English youth and ready made from Europe, but a lot more than ready made from England. And virtually all making a step up, rather than a step down in level.
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Do you know what is interesting about your list? About 80% of them took at least a season or two to blossom. There are very few Toby's in there who came in, slotted in and immediately became one of our stalwarts. The very young contingent obviously took time as would be expected. The heavyweights like Modric, Kane, Bale also took some time.

This sort of tells me that next season's big heroes are probably already at the club.
 
Muttley said:
Do you know what is interesting about your list? About 80% of them took at least a season or two to blossom. There are very few Toby's in there who came in, slotted in and immediately became one of our stalwarts. The very young contingent obviously took time as would be expected. The heavyweights like Modric, Kane, Bale also took some time.

This sort of tells me that next season's big heroes are probably already at the club.
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Toby also wasn’t signed from an English side
But the logic is right
Players take time in most cases
 
Bedfordspurs said:
Toby also wasn’t signed from an English side
But the logic is right
Players take time in most cases
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Am I right in saying he had just completed a season on loan at Saints though? Or was that the season before.

I remember Godin formed great partnerships with Miranda and Gimenez and therefore Toby never quite got that Athletico career going. I think Toby was also deployed at 6 at one point.
 
Bedfordspurs said:
CL and a a major trophy also makes us much more attractive than finishing 5th and getting the CL
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Does it? I'm not sure it's does - agreed that ours is the better outcome from the season - but does a player care about that over which team is more likely to progress in the short term? if a player is looking at who is most likely to kick on it would be the the team in 5th rather than the team in 17th. (All things being equal wrt wages on offer)

To back that up I would refer to recent history of clubs who have won a trophy while being low down in the table and whether or not that trophy win has been followed up with either more trophies or just general upward progression. Not sure there's a precedent to show that is likely tbh
 
billyiddo said:
Does it? I'm not sure it's does - agreed that ours is the better outcome from the season - but does a player care about that over which team is more likely to progress in the short term? if a player is looking at who is most likely to kick on it would be the the team in 5th rather than the team in 17th. (All things being equal wrt wages on offer)

To back that up I would refer to recent history of clubs who have won a trophy while being low down in the table and whether or not that trophy win has been followed up with either more trophies or just general upward progression. Not sure there's a precedent to show that is likely tbh
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Money is the simples factor for all players
After that it’s trophies
We can demonstrate we can win
Others can’t
And it’s why players will doubt things and need even more money to be persuaded IMO
I think a sensible player will look at last season and understand the league was an anomaly just like some fans will say winning the cup was too (as everyone seems to want to be the opposite) and both would be considered
 
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